“A lot of the illusions that I held dear, rugged individualism, individual freedoms, are coming back to bite us in the ass. It seems like getting rid of the gatekeepers gave us Trump as president, and in the same breath, in the same wind, gave us not wearing masks, and maybe gave us a huge unpleasant amount of overt racism.”
Hats off to a man willing to admit he made a mistake.
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We should remember that at the time there was a severe lack of masks of any kind available. So creating a masking culture and blocking as much as possible was seen as better than just rawdogging the atmosphere.
the shortage was for a few months at best, I was working as a trucker hauling grain then, wheat dust is fucking nasty, I often wore a mask for that, an N95, which I went out of my way to get in bulk. Cloth masks can’t keep grain dust out of your lungs, don’t tell me they do anything as to a virus.
don’t tell me they do anything as to a virus.
Okay. I won’t, but the NIH would like a word.
That’s a common misconception of how masks work during an epidemy. The main reason to wear a mask is not to be safe from other people. It’s to not spread the virus (that may not cause any symptoms yet but be present in you) to others. That’s why doctors wear masks during surgeries - to not harm the patient. A proper mask works better and can protect you as well, but a cloth mask can limit the amount of breath you spread all around you and can be effective enough to limit the spread of the disease. So it’s not the same situation as with grain dust, where you need to protect yourself, not the others.
And those were also the few months that NYC was using refrigerated semi trailers as extra morgue space because so many people were dying. And yeah they do. Some virus particles will be too small to be stopped but some will be riding larger particles and be stopped with them. Reducing the sheer amount of virus in an area is always better. Whether it’s by 10 percent or 90 percent.
anyone who claims to be “a libertarian” should be forced to watch the libertarian convention which YOU KNOW none of them have ever seen in their lives.
check out the ideas your “party” pushes. real big brain stuff.
there’s nothing wrong with freedom, but regulation is necessary. to say otherwise is either ignorance, stupidity, or malice.
I am a PJ fan and follower, but I am well aware that he has long been a naive idiot operating from a place of priviledge. He is well insulated from the pitfalls of the ideas he espouses, and it took an UNDENIABLE COLLAPSE into straight up Nazism for him to finally grasp it.
Luv ya Penn, but I ain’t giving you any fucking medals
Being wrong admitting it and changing your mind with new information is absolutely amazing and a great character trait. Props to him.
“I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid; I meant, that stupid persons are generally Conservative” - John Stuart Mill
good to see teller talked some sense into him
Penn Jilletet pulled me 100 % onto the vaccine train with his ball and shield demonstration with teller on their bull shit show. Until this day, I still haven’t seen any demonstration that was more convincing than that on any subject in the amount of time that they used.
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I mean, libertarianism in essence, arrived at purely through your own reasoning, is pretty based. Every person should be free to do as they please right up until it infringes on their neighbors’ own similar freedom; the government should be limited in scope to services which uphold that goal.
In practice, its proponents are either selfish pricks who think libertarianism means they specifically get to do whatever they want, or they wind up reinventing the government with Citizen Advocacy Boards and such.
The principle is valid, the company is pretty cringe tho.
It’s that line of “infringing on the freedom of others”. If you think it’s the government role to free people of their oppressive burdens (e.g. free them from poverty, free them from ill-heath) then concentration of wealth is “infringing on the freedoms of others”. So it needs to be regulated against.
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No. Not what I said.
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I think you just didn’t realize that’s synonymous with what you said. Private property is wealth, private property is theft… But even if you didn’t realize that’s what you implied, you were still correct :)
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Somewhat ironically, we can see virtual libertarianism/Anarcho capitalism evolve by following EVE online: Some of the larger player corporations became de facto states
I always thought I was one of the few people that saw Eve as the libertarian dystopia that it is. I certainly thought I was the only one that held it up as a ready example of what libertarianism looks like when fully executed – now that I think about it, this must be a more popular idea than I realized. Complete with nullsec monopolies and everything. All this in a space that features no scarcity other than real-estate. The end game of libertarian ideals in the Eve example ends in monopoly and the accumulation of absurd amounts of power into the hands of few select individuals. What’s striking is how well run things are on the fleet level, only for the corporate leaders to often be wasteful, populist, of questionable moral fiber, and generally irresponsible – albeit not as a rule. They also have a penchant for casually destroying those that disagree with them. It stands as an excellent example.
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Right, that’s exactly the problem I have with most people who call themselves libertarian. In a nutshell, they truly believe that we all should get to do whatever we want, as long as it doesn’t affect others. Except, everything we do affects other people. Some of the ways are profound, and some are trivial. The libertarian-type people are so selfish, or solipsistic, they think that only their own judgement applies whether the effect infringes freedom it not.
We see that with vaccines: The government shouldn’t mandate what they put in their bodies. That’s infringes freedom. But they’re more than happy to spread virus into other people’s bodies, and if immuno-compromised people think that it’s hurting them, too bad. Or the libertarian types think that they should be allowed to drive the biggest brodozer available, because it doesn’t affect anybody else, and the freedom of other people who get hit and crushed under the wheels, the other drivers blinded by eye-level headlights, or the taxpayers who have to subsidize more free parking space and street maintenance, doesn’t matter.
It’s always the same pattern: Anything that stops me from doing what I want is an unreasonable infringement of freedom, and any effects I have on other people are just the reality of living in society and they should suck it up.
I think it’s cool if you take it far enough for it to become anarchism, but if there’s still property it just becomes an excuse for exploitation.
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The funny (sad?) part is that libertarianism was originally coined to be a synonym for anarcho-communism, when discussion by name of the latter was outlawed in France. In fact, the definition has been completely overwritten only in the USA, where the word was colonized by Murray Rothbard in the 1950s. In Europe a lot of people still recognize the word “libertarian” outside of North American contexts as reference to leftist anarchist tendencies.
But colonizing an existing social good and contorting it to become something antisocial is extremely on-brand for capitalism.
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It’s good to remind people that the term “libertarianism” (“Libertaire”) was coined by French anarcho-communists in the 1850s when the French government outlawed speech advocating anarchism specifically by name, and that for a full century is was used by anarchists throughout the western world to refer specifically to non-hierarchical modes of socialism and communism, ideologies that are founded on concepts like mutual aid, social solidarity, worker’s control, anti-authoritarianism, etc. It wasn’t until the 1950s when the American Murray Rothbard colonized the term to advocate for the exact opposite in an attempt to obfuscate the inseparable relationship between capitalism and the state. His attempt worked.
Ideologically I’m a true believer in communalism, a sociopolticial practice that is not quite anarchist and therefore is best described as a “libertarian socialist” tendency. But thanks to that ancap rat bastard Rothbard that description does not aid in helping most people to understand me.
Libertarian socialism with democracy in the workplace woud be a better alterantive that libertarian capitalism … we’re just stuck in the end of history way of thinking that people cant grasp life without capitalism
The thing is, there really is no such thing as libertarian capitalism. Capitalism cannot exist without the state, they’re essentially two necessary sides of the same coin. American “libertarianism” can really be described as a (successful) attempt to obfuscate that fact in the minds of capitalist subjects (Especially the most socially and financially privileged of those subjects). To make it seem like nothing good has been the result of competent governance, that it’s all great men unburdened by regulation, unbridled by law. Really though, all the coercive might of capitalism deflates without the violent capacity of the state.
Yeah , agree 100% … great man theory of history rly pisses me off , plus the whole “capitalism is best without regulations” bullshit , people forgot the first gilded age and the fight of the unions to give people some semblance of decency in the workplace
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I feel smart because I met Penn in his dressing room in Vegas few years back and discussed Gary Johnson’s running for President. But I came to my senses years ago…
LMAO I’m a libertarian who fully realizes that my party is bullshit.
I mean, Democrats and Republicans are both total bullshit too, but at least I’m self-aware enough to know my party is bullshit.
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Why have a party if you know that libertarianism is bullshit?
Because at least when Libertarians fuck everything up, sometimes it’s kinda funny. Ever hear about the time a bunch of Libertarian idiots got an entire town overrun by bears?
If they all suck why not just focus on mutual aid and solidarity with working class folks, instead of siding with billionaires. Because that’s ultimately what libertarianism is you know?
Libertarians aren’t a monolith, y’know. I’m not the “simp for billionaires” type of Libertarian, I hate those people. Rather, I’m the “prepper nutjob who hates the government and is ready to retreat to the woods when everything goes to hell” type of Libertarian.
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Well I think the real question is what are your ethics if you encounter another human being when you have retreated into the woods? … Do you avoid them?
Yes. “Get off my lawn” would be the appropriate response.
Do you try to dominate or exploit them? If so that is libertarianism.
No, that is not Libertarianism. Libertarians want very small government, focusing on protection of one’s rights and one’s property.
lib·er·tar·i·an·ism
/ˌlibərˈterēəˌniz(ə)m/
noun: libertarianism
- a political philosophy that advocates only minimal state intervention in the free market and the private lives of citizens.
Do you work toward partnership and mutual aid? If so that’s anarchism.
No, that is not anarchism. Anarchists want no government whatsoever.
an·ar·chism
/ˈanərˌkizəm/
noun
noun: anarchism
- a political theory advocating the abolition of hierarchical government and the organization of society on a voluntary, cooperative basis without recourse to force or compulsion.
No offense, but honestly? I find anarchism to be even more ridiculous than libertarianism, and us libertarians are absolutely ridiculous. Sure, “voluntarism” sounds good on paper but what ends up happening looks more like Somalia in practice.
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I got to meet him in Vegas. He was really nice to a nervous nerd. Now I’m even more impressed he has the courage to change his beliefs in public.
A sign of true intelligence is the ability to change your opinions after consideration and evidence. Penn always struck me as a very intelligent man.
I used to practically idolize Penn and Teller and had all their books and STILL use their card-forces and other goofy, effective performances with friends. It made me a legend with friends and family.
I lost track in adulthood but am glad to see that Penn didn’t turn into a grifting chud like so many from the time, and practiced what he preached in using critical thought and self-examination.
Yeah, they’re really nice guys. I got to go up on stage for one of their shows and participate in a trick. We went to a lot of shows on that trip (seven, i think?), they were the only ones that stand outside the exit and greet ever person leaving that wants to meet them. They sign autographs, take pictures, etc. with hundreds of people after each show. And they stopped to talk to my friend and I for a couple minutes as we left and Penn thanked me for participating and let me keep a prop from the act as a souvenir. Great dudes.
The souvenir is a good example of the libertarian aspects of their show. It was a metal card with the bill of rights on it, with the 4th amendment (the freedom from unwarranted search and seisure) highlighted in red. The premise was you should put it in your pocket when walking through the metal detectors or scanners at TSA at the airport. When the machines go off and they question you about out it, you were meant to pull it out and snarkily go “oh sorry, that’s just my bill of rights”. It was a good for a bit of a laugh in theory, but way too obnoxious to actually do in real life. I packed it away in my carry-on instead. I still have it in a keepsake box somewhere.
There used to be a time back when libertarianism was anti-capitalist. Then right wingers stole it and turned it into a circus.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
John Kenneth Galbraith
I think Penn went there with a different mindset than those occupying the space now.
Galbraith wrote one of my favorite books!
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Self awareness is such a precious thing in people but it is a prerequisite for this type of personal growth. It can be difficult but ultimately it is rewarding and fulfilling to realise there are things that you don’t like about yourself and set about correcting them.
I’ve always considered myself a libertarian, but I’m coming to realize I need to find another word. I used to be able to explain that assholes were ruining the name, but now the assholes outnumber people like me by too much.
I think the real turning point was when Jo Jorgensen said, “It is not enough to be passively not racist, we must be actively anti-racist,” and then she had to walk it back because the libertarian party was so fucking racist. Like, that’s not even a political statement. It’s a moral one, and it’s one I agree with.
Then when the Libertarian Party changed their stance on abortion, I was done with them. I clung to the lowercase L label, but at this point it doesn’t seem worth it anymore.
I just think the government should be limited to things that only the government can handle. Policing? Roads? Business regulations? Those are all things that can only be handled by the government. Restrictions on what kind of stove I can buy? Restrictions on what I can put in my body or how I dress or what my kids can read at school? Those are all bullshit.
I guess it helps that I align with Democrats on most of the major issues now, but I still won’t consider myself a Democrat.
I got turned towards Libertanianism when I lived in Germany for a while and if you ever had you’d know why. Then I lived in Asia where it’s the exact opposite and that turned me towards socialism. My point being is that there’s definitely a golden mean to freedoms and any absolutist should be immediately ignored because they are objectively wrong.
I got turned towards Libertanianism when I lived in Germany for a while and if you ever had you’d know why.
Living in Germany rn. I don’t get it? Can you please explain?
Not OP and couldn’t see myself moving towards Libertarianism, but I can kinda see where OP is coming from. Germany does have a huge amount of regulations for almost everything. A lot of projects take far too long because there are so so many rules and laws to be considered. People working in administration got so used to that, that they tend to avoid responsibilities and hide behind rules and regulations (saying this as someone working in administration, trying to establish better digital processes, which tends to be quite frustrating). On an individual level, everything (except the Autobahn without its speed limit) is always made, so even the biggest idiot can’t hurt himself. Sometimes that ruins the fun for everyone else…
I’ll take ruined fun over ruined lives.
Where do you draw the line? Because that’s what it’s about: how much risk is acceptable for efficiency, personal freedom, etc. The answer is obviously not “zero” or else we wouldn’t have room for cars, construction, stairs, public beaches, the list goes on. Most of life is inherently or potentially dangerous, how much of that danger should be blocked by the state and how much left to the individual to manage?
There is no The Line, obviously. It’s all decided on case-by-case basis, and decisions have to be made in context. The only thing you can do in advance is to answer the question “do you prefer momentary efficiency, or do you prefer safety” and then go from there.
It’s not even about monetary efficiency. Ruined fun/ruined life. You said you were on the side of “ruined fun” but how much fun are we talking about? I assume you have some kind of stance because you joined the conversation.
I started to observe a pattern recently, when people on this platform refuse to read the text of the comment they’re replying to. It leads to all kinds of bad faith arguments.
Don’t be like that. Read the text, and engage with the text, not with what you imagined someone might say to you.
ruined fun is a ruined life
It’s just Kafka-esque bureaucracy of everything. It’s almost impossible to get anything done and it’s incredibly demotivating.
Its 90% of european continent , ita burried under 10 layers of buirocracy … we even have a joke here “you’re gonna need a form ym1p (you’re missing 1 paper) on your third visit, otherwise you wont get anything done” , doesnt translate as well tho
Yes I’m generally pro regulation and government oversight but the way European countries implement this sometimes feels like a purposeful moat to protect the rich.
That’s not “leftism”, that’s just unchecked, unquestioned bureaucracy.
Not saying it is, just quite the opposite if what libertarianism is.
Gee, I can’t imagine why Germany would want to slow down government actions…
Can you give some examples? I really don’t understand what you’re talking about
Have you ever had to visit a DMV?
No, I’ve never lived in US. Why?
Maybe I’m oversimplifying but I tend to think money is the problem. Supposing all wealth were equally distributed, libertarianism makes a lot of sense to me as maximizing personal freedoms. It generally becomes a problem when people use wealth to abuse others, either by hoarding wealth and restricting the freedom of others that way, or by using inequality to purchase things that no person should be able to purchase.
Another thing to keep in mind is that libertarianism wants everyone to focus on the individual, when society itself is an organized group that looks toward the collective (ideally, anyway)
Without guardrails or penalties for being caught, people that abuse the system will hoard wealth and power until they can call the shots
Or get shot , libertairanism slides into feudal/oligarchical structure if left unchecked
These thought experiments are fun and truthful and all but I really dont see much value in this speculation tbh. In my 40something years in different cultures I’ve became a staunch believer in Golden Mean of politics. Use the right tool for the right job. Times are good - work on more fteedoms, times are harder - maybe it’s time to tighten up the belts.
But what if the hard times are caused by rich people abusing the commons? Should we just keep tightening our belts while the rich take more and more?
I agree in general, like if there’s a drought expect less food. But most of our scarcity is artificial. I believe there are solutions to the challenge of surviving.
No the golden mean also applies to your example too. If rich get too toxic it’s time to bring out guillotines
Oh interesting, that’s not what it sounded like. Is that your personal view, or a tenet of the Golden Mean? Is there a particular thinker that you cleave to more than the others?
The Wikipedia page is pretty nebulous on this, other than allowing for a limited aristocracy (and monarchy?? Lol no thanks on that).
I’m not sure how you’d decide exactly how limited this aristocracy is without importing from other philosophies and value systems.
Golden Mean is a philosophy of Aristotel who said that all things have a golden mean (or balance) where existence is optimal.
Basically avoiding any sort of extremism will always be the most efficient path because of uncertainty and imperfection of our existence.
He mostly applied it to virtues of living like justice or wisdom. Sure you can close yourself off and study non-stop or fight all of the injustice in the world without sleep but this is not sustainble and diminishing returns reaches a point where the energy input is no longer returning positive results or even decreasing the overall output.
Imo this applies to basically everything including politics. Because political systems are so complex (and people are so complex) it’s imposible to control the systwm without leaving space for imperfection. So you can be a socialist but you still need to respect some individual freedoms, you can be a libertarian but you still have to admit that some things need to be forbidden for smooth sailing basically.
I can certainly second this as an American who emigrated to Germany. I considered myself a strong “Bernie-leftist” in the States yet gravitate more towards the political center here.
Libertarianism is just a way to soft-sell Totalitarian Plutocracy.
I was about to say “letting the rich fuck us in the ass without even the courtesy of a reacharound” but your answer is more acceptable in polite society.
Now, now, they also weaponized it to siphon off democratic votes BEFORE they started pushing the current Totalitarian Plutocracy.
It can do two things!
