You want the actual answer? Because the Democratic Party has spent the last decade torpedoing non-establishment candidates. They killed off other candidates even running in this primary, and shut down several primaries entirely. Why would we waste our time?
And let’s be honest, let’s say that now the DNC appoints a new candidate, like they legally can do, it’s not going to be an AOC or someone even slightly to the left like Warren. It’s going to be another neoliberal like Buttigeig who will continue to Biden’s legacy of absolute mediocrity and screwing over the American people in the name of “freedom”.
This is 100% correct.
Small thing to add - we’re also in the midst of a devastating heat wave across most of the US at this moment. Taking to the streets isn’t exactly an accessible option right now, but anyone who has been remotely engaged in online discourse should be well aware of voters’ discontent with Biden and the status quo. They certainly won’t be discussing it on MSNBC however.
Your comment illustrates how our broken news system is the reason why four months is an insufficient runway for candidate policy clarity.
How do you consider Buttigieg a neoliberal? He wants to remove financial lobbying and stock trading permissions from Congress, create a nine Justice SCOTUS with three Democrat nominated Justices, three Republican, and three voted in by the previous six, his campaign raised $80M from small donations, and he endorsed the Green New Deal.
Just because he’s not as progressive as AOC or Bernie, doesn’t mean he’s not a big step in the right direction.
Thinking back to 2019 iircc the only Democrat candidate of the ±15 that was more conservative than Biden/Harris was Bloomberg. -I guess you could also argue Gabbard but she opted to go a different direction altogether. Regardless, a lot of Democrat voters seem to be projecting their values onto Biden without evaluating him as he is and always has been. He’s never been particularly progressive.
People forget that Biden was paired with Obama because Obama was seen as “too liberal” for “mainstream Democrats”. Biden was supposed to be a “correction” for Obama’s crazy ideas like the ACA (that was actually originally pushed for by, wait for it, Ronald fucking Reagan. The only difference was that Reagan didn’t propose any kind of public option, but that was the first thing Democrats killed in the name of “compromise”)
Yet Biden has been way more liberal than Obama.
Are you joking or not? I can’t tell.
He has. By literally every measure.
Ok. I’ll let you believe what you want to I guess. Evidently Obama actively supported multiple genocides instead of passively supporting one.
They didn’t call him Wall Street Pete and Wine Cave Pete for nothing…
I mean, they packed university campuses across the country and then the riot police went in. What kind of goldfish memory is this?
Gold
They’re asking why democrats aren’t in the streets though. Democrats were largely against those campus protests since they were perceived as harmful to Biden’s reelection chances.
DemocratsBiden supporters were largely against those campus protests since they were perceived as harmful to Biden’s reelection chances.Fair enough.
The last time we filled the streets we wanted police reform and didn’t get it.
The time before that it was to protest a war that happened anyway.
Not only did we not get police reform, we got a cop as a democratic vice president.
Yes, top cop Kamala. And now they’re threatening to roll with her if Biden has to step down. We’re doomed.
Because that’s not a thing and never has been? Find me any large scale protests in the history of the US where they were protesting a candidate prior to an election.
There’s not a single liberal or leftist (a few paid shill podcasters notwithstanding) in the whole country saying “Joe Biden’s brain is so soupy that Donald Trump would make a better president.” We’re saying Democrat leadership suppressed the primary to anoint an incumbent who’s going to lose. Democracy is on the line, and we’re running out of time to put our best foot forward. It’d be one thing if we were getting honest and reasonable arguments in response, but instead we’re getting gaslit (Only the elites want Biden to step aside?) and being told "get in line or you’re helping Trump somehow. " Meanwhile, Republicans are preparing to sue to keep Biden on the ballot in the event of a switch, because they know who they want to run against.
I hope I’m wrong and I hope he wins, since we’re probably stuck with him on the ticket. Given that he’s down 12 points from where he was in 2020 against Trump, where the swing states that gave Biden the election were only fractions of a percent in his favor, it’s gonna take some kind of miracle. We don’t have to be in this seemingly hopeless situation, but Biden’s ego and stubbornness seem like they’re gonna keep us here.
Historically protests are at the convention when the unpopular candidate is named.
Then the people who named the unpopular candidate blame the protests for the loss
People love to blame the people who make noise to warn about loss.
Cassandra of Greek legend was less cursed cause of a god but because no one wants to hear someone else be right about something they don’t want to accept.
I agree with this message, but the 1968 Democratic National Convention protests were in part due to the nomination of Hubert Humphrey.
In Chicago even.
Honestly. The number of people just on this platform saying “nobody thinks biden should drop, you’re wrong, you have no right to be upset with Biden’s team, and anyone who says otherwise is a bot” is seriously making me wonder if that narrative itself is the one being pushed by bots to sow discord between us. Who honestly jumps directly to “bot or stupid, no other possible explanation” when they disagree with an opinion so clearly held by a substantial number of people with nuanced opinions.
Anyone paying attention would see that Biden, having won on razor margins in 2020, on promises of being a 1-term president, could not afford to lose ANY ground in democratic turnout. Every feeler they put out is coming back showing we have lost that ground substantially and Biden is utterly unable to campaign to gain it back. Anyone can be not Trump, not everyone can run an energetic campaign on their own merits, and that is overwhelmingly what motivates people to turn out to vote.
It’s not a difficult connection to make and the assumption that bots would be the only ones to make an argument to replace Biden, after they ran a “primary” in which they hid Biden away from us and didn’t let even anyone remotely viable run, is just such an uninformed and arrogant viewpoint to witness in such droves that I hardly believe it’s real.
They don’t have or need good arguments, they just need to run out the clock until “It’s too late to change” becomes a legitimate argument.
I seriously wonder the same thing. People panicking and the response being to the people panicking
“don’t worry no one is panicking cause he’s a good pick”
feels like the psyop that helps the Republicans win.I know it’s just willful ignorance because they find this easier and less scary but like… Are they just Trumpies?
Because there aren’t any other viable candidates.
I agree with you, and that’s how you know it’s just disinformation and dishonesty. Nobody ever has a serious name to replace Biden. You press them for the replacement candidate, and you’ll get a ridiculous answer because they don’t actually have a plan. They just want to knock Biden down.
Harris is already on the ticket. If she’s the reason to vote, good news! Biden can step aside after he beats Trump and hand Harris the big chair. She can then run in 4 years as an incumbent (assuming she does a good job.) If she’s not the dream candidate, then why aren’t we talking about replacing her on the ticket? You want Whitmer or Newsom or Buttigieg, then put them on as the VP and let them run behind Biden.
You don’t get away from Biden’s baggage by having him step aaide. His record, his endorsements, his policies, those all come with the package. The only thing you shed is his age. If that’s the only reason you’re concerned about Biden, then it’s not a serious concern.
how is Biden the only person that can beat Trump? What left-leaning person would go “hmm, it’s not Biden so I guess I’m voting Trump”?
It’s not that Biden is the only person who can beat Trump. Biden is the only person RUNNING who can beat Trump. There are plenty of people who could beat Trump, but until one of them says they want the job this entire thing is a nonstarter.
the DNC kinda prevents legitimate alternatives from succeeding though. It doesn’t have to be this way but the party keeps it like this, maintaining the incumbent as the only choice.
People want more options and they would be available if it was remotely possible to overcome the DNC’s favoritism to Biden.
I 1000% agree with you. The DNC shouldn’t be operating as an arm of the incumbent, that’s precisely why we’re in this position now. I just don’t know how that changes when the DNC is staffed with people chosen by the incumbent, especially before November.
The level of political analysis in this thread is like armchair traffic engineers talking about how we could eliminate traffic by just opening up another lane.
Winning an election in our current system means running a 50 state strategy and getting more votes than your opponent. Almost everyone who votes is uninformed on most issues, and will vote for the person they like most. Some vote against the person they hate most. A full third of eligible voters did not vote in the last presidential election, and that was the highest voter turnout in 120 years.
To get someone to vote for you, you need three things in this order:
- Recognize your name
- Believe they know you well enough to see you in the job
- Be motivated to go out of their way to cast a ballot
That’s it. All of the ads and speeches and interviews and debates are trying to accomplish those three objectives. That’s why primaries are important, because it gives the candidates time to differentiate themselves and build a following of donors and volunteers.
An incumbent has a ridiculous advantage in that they have 1 and 2 completed. Everyone voting knows that Biden is the President, and they have seen him doing the job. Trump has also been President and done the job. So it just comes down to which of these two old, white shitbags can motivate enough voters to show up.
If the incumbent drops out, you are starting over at zero. The candidate must introduce themselves to the voters, and then convince them that they have the experience and gravitas to handle the job. The American voters are woefully inept at judging whether a person has the experience or gravitas, but we all believe we are good at it.
A lot of people are motivated to vote because they love Trump. A lot of people are motivated because they hate Trump. Biden might have a handful of supporters that are motivated by Biden, and there might be a few morons who hate Biden enough to vote for Trump. The real hurdle Biden needs to clear is getting people who are unenthusiastic about either candidate to show up.
So the question becomes, is there another candidate who is so energizing and charismatic that they can introduce themselves, demonstrate competence, and motivate the unenthused without alienating the already luke-warm supporters?
What does Harris get you? She’s not going to change course on Israel. Youth? She’s fairly unpopular among young voters. Women? Anyone who cares about women’s rights is already voting against Trump. Minorities? See: Women. Plus, anyone who loves Harris is already going to be motivated to vote for Biden, because he’s not likely to go the full four years.
If you don’t like Harris, then who? All of the big names in the party have backed Biden and have said they aren’t running. Are we going to nominate that Joe Shmoe primary challenger that couldn’t even get on the ballot in half the states? He’s been running for a year and I can’t remember his name or tell you what his policies are.
All of these hypothetical scenarios about how the ticket would be better if the DNC wasn’t corrupt, that’s just bullshit. Our election system sucks, but we’re not going to fix it by complaining about the team uniforms. You want to make it better? Run for office. Write your representatives. Donate and/or volunteer for a campaign. Vote out conservatives at every level of government. Talk politics with your friends and neighbors. These things will all help. Whinging about the DNC on Lemmy will not.
Yeah I was just agreeing with a specific point about how we intentionally give the incumbent even more of an advantage during the primaries. Nothing you said is exclusive to my comment. I know/agree with pretty much everything you said already. Sorry you had to write all that.
Run for office. Write your representatives. Donate and/or volunteer for a campaign. Vote out conservatives at every level of government. Talk politics with your friends and neighbors. These things will all help.
All great points. How about we both spread this message and you forgive me for posting my admittedly unproductive comment?
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Isn’t it convenient that no candidate who wants to stay in the good graces of the democratic party will announce their candidacy until the incumbent democratic president steps down. What an unbelievably paradoxical argument to make.
Because nobody else was allowed to run, exactly.
I would argue that anyone who meets the qualifications COULD have run, but the chances of beating the incumbency advantage were admittedly pretty low. There are a lot of institutional obstacles in the way, but that’s not the same as actively preventing someone from tossing their hat in the ring. That’s like saying RFK Jr was prevented from running. He just had no chance winning the Democratic primary (because he’s a piece of shit) so he went independent.
The deck is clearly stacked against anyone trying to unseat an incumbent, but that’s not new information. That’s literally how our system works. I would prefer the DNC be neutral and have a drag out fight in the primary and then support the winner, but that’s pretty tough to do when the incumbent is the de facto leader of the party.
Did I say that? I might have said something like it in another comment, but I don’t think I ever said anyone who is voting for Biden would vote for Trump if the Dems nominate someone else.
There exist many voters who do not follow politics and will only show up to vote for someone they know. Name recognition builds trust and enthusiasm for voting. We need all the voters, not just the ones tuned in enough to know they shouldn’t vote for Trump.
Nobody ever has a serious name to replace Biden.
Oh, they’ve moved on to indignation now and pretending they didn’t spend the last few weeks disappearing after being asked for a name. But they still very rarely actually give one.
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She’s not my favorite, but mostly because we haven’t seen much of her. If Biden can live two years and she can really get her voice out there, she could potentially see 2028 and 2032.
You haven’t seen much of her because she is a terminally uncharismatic former cop who is abusive towards her staff. The best she can do for herself is stay behind the scenes.
I cannot imagine her running a campaign that motivates people to show up at the polls. Now would be her chance to show it though, considering the president himself being incapacitated outside the hours of 10am and 4pm.
I think if she had been a half-decent politician, Biden would have resigned two years ago. That would have given her a shot at establishing herself as the President before this election.
The fact that Biden is still at it means he didn’t want Harris to be President.
Exactly. Does anyone think Biden is making it another 4 years? We’ve voting for president Harris one way or the other
They don’t have an answer or you don’t like the answer? Because they are two different things. I can name a bunch of possibilities. I don’t like many of them, but to say “they don’t have any ideas” is ridiculous. So let’s make a list of people I’ve seen brought up as possible replacements:
Newsom, Klouchar, Warren, Sanders, AOC, Whitmer, Buttigeig, Harris…do I need to go on?
Now here’s what you do: you move the goalposts or you play the no true scotsman game (“no, somebody with a serious chance”). Then you continue the game smugly like nobody has actually given you any names that you’re willing to concede might be a better nominee than Biden.
And maybe you won’t, but this is how this argument has gone every single time I’ve had it. It’s a dismissal technique and I’m only really calling it out is because there are a lot of folks like me that have been saying Biden is a shitty choice for the last 3 years and have been told to sit down and shut up because he’s the president and you have to support him (sound familiar? Trump supporters did the same damn thing). We were told “oh Biden has committed to being a 1 term president, he’s just righting the ship”. We were told we could address it in 2024. And then he decided that nah, he felt like running again. And killed the primaries. And we’re told we have to vote for him again because the other guy is fascist.
It feels very much like Oliver Twist being fed gruel everyday and being told to be thankful for it. And then those same people who told us to sit down and shut up are the ones telling us that we have to vote for it again (because fascism!). This is what happened in 2016, then again in 2020, and now again in 2024. At some point people start to throw you the middle finger and walk away, and that’s what you’re seeing happen.
You named 8 people who have all backed Biden and are not running. I would also prefer pretty much any of them to Biden, but they aren’t candidates. You might as well throw in Jon Stewart and Kermit the Frog for all the realism you have in your list.
You also named 8 people. That’s not a plan, that’s a menu. You don’t have an answer, either. The primaries have happened already, and the Democrats don’t have another candidate.
I’ll take you at your word that you’re not a fascist pretending to be a disgruntled progressive, but this is precisely what a fascist pretending to be a disgruntled progressive would say. A sincere progressive wouldn’t attack Biden without a specific path forward or realistic alternative.
So I’ll tell you what should be obvious to you: Trump will be worse. If you don’t think Trump will be worse than Biden, then you’re a Trump supporter. There’s only one perspective that creates such a massive blind spot, and that is to be squarely inside of Trump’s large colon. From any other angle, you would support Biden.
So, please, vote. I don’t expect you to like it. I don’t like it. But we can work on the rest once Trump is behind bars. If he wins again, that’s the end of our Democracy. It is not an option. Biden must win, and then I’ll join your voice in demanding he step down.
Of course they’re not running, of course they’ve backed Biden. Not openly backing Biden is a sure way to be blacklisted in the Democratic Party
Also, if you read my post, you did exactly what I said you would do (“That’s a menu not a plan”). All your complaints are caused by the DNC. They cancelled the primaries, they rallied behind Biden before primaries happened despite many folks screaming they didn’t want him. And there were other candidates, but they didn’t get a chance because most state Democratic Parties refused to put them on ballots. Not wanting to have voters have their say in a candidate, what’s that sound like?
Also, wake up call: Trump will never be behind bars. And when he dies, he’s going to be replaced by someone with the same rhetoric and the brains to implement it. Everyone keeps talking about how “we have to vote this way or fascism wins”. I agree with that. But what people aren’t acknowledging is that the Democrats are slowing slipping into fascism as well. And the “you gotta vote for this guy” rhetoric makes it worse, not better.
I love your “you might actually a fascist, not a progressive” talk. I hear it super often from Biden or die types. I also heard it when I begrudgingly voted for Hillary, and then Biden the first time. I’ve caucused for Bernie, twice. I’ve been part of my county’s policy committee for the last 7 years. I will be voting Democrat for almost every single down ticket election. Hell, I’m literally going to a fundraiser Saturday for 2 local Democrats because one of them was one of the only Dems in my state to actually defend trans rights while Republicans (successfully) began to strip them away. You know, the exact things that just got passed through the Democrat-controlled Armed Services committee and supported by the majority of Democrats on the committee? The thing that Biden just started backsliding on? Yea, as a trans person you’ll have to excuse my absolute frustration and anger in watching the Democratic Party, yet again, slide to the right.
You’re right, I stopped reading after you got mad at me for not accepting your bullshit answer and then gave me a bullshit answer.
You’re the one backing Trump. Your arguments are invalid.
Yup, you’re right. I don’t like Biden, therefore my queer ass is clearly a fascist.
And you wonder why people aren’t swayed by your argument.
You’re attacking Biden so Trump can win. I don’t like Biden, either, but Trump is worse. Your agenda is transparent.
You don’t get away from Biden’s baggage by having him step aaide. His record, his endorsements, his policies, those all come with the package.
That’s a good point. The entire Democratic Party has failed the working class (because they were never on our side to begin with). Whose name is on the line on the ballot next to the D is irrelevant; we’ve already lost.
Theres a whole country of people, how hard is it to find one qualified candidate?!
Apparently, rather hard.
I doubt it is the qualification for the actual job that is the issue. Being willing to put one’s family through that shit it tough.
Indeed. A wise wizard once said: “It is a curious thing, Harry, but perhaps those who are best suited to power are those who have never sought it.”
There’s also a very consistent and common shortlist that these people just pretend doesn’t exist because the narrative line they’re now following demands they pretend it doesn’t.
Right! Nobody’s stepped up because Biden hasn’t stepped down, I thought that was well established by now??
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I’m just saying it’s pretty convenient to your point that the DNC has been making it abundantly clear that they would take down anyone who challenges their incumbent.
via Matt Taibbi yesterday on substack,
I used to support Bernie Sanders; but he’s not going to be considered for any “blitz primary,” because party insiders apparently don’t consider him a legitimate or “viable” Democrat (while candidates Sanders stomped in primaries, like Amy Klobuchar and Cory Booker, are being considered). Marianne Williamson, removed from the ballot by the DNC in states like Florida and North Carolina, is another candidate I like who’s been effectively banished for having the gall to oppose the incumbent in this cycle. I liked Tulsi Gabbard, too, but the party slandered her as a “Russian asset” and effectively expelled her, on the basis of phony research ginned up by the Hamilton 68 think tank we exposed in the Twitter Files. I think RFK, Cornel West (whom I like a lot, as you’d know if you read my profile), Jill Stein, and even the No Labels people are interesting. The huge amounts of time, money, and effort being spent by Democrats to try to keep them all off the ballot through litigation are incomprehensible and infuriating.
Trump is winning either way with the way things are going right now, might as well throw out a hail mary
What is this list?
Just fucking Google it man. It’s been a repeated news story. If you’re not aware of it you’re not trying to know it.
OK, so you don’t have an answer either, got it.
No, I just think you’re being disingenuous so I have no interest in whatever name by name critique you’re going to give for a list you already know 80%+ of the names for but are pretending doesn’t exist.
I don’t think a single person on your theoretical list is electable, if that’s what you mean. But I would need you to be specific about who you think might be a viable alternative in order to have any useful discussion about them. I have no need to be disingenuous. You need to actually support your point of view with more than vague suggestions and hand-waving.
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Look at the 2020 candidates, I’m sure a good number of them would run a campaign if Biden stepped down. The democratic establishment just needs to put their weight behind a candidate that people are willing to vote for like they did with Biden.
The democratic establishment just needs to put their weight behind a candidate that people are willing to vote for
Which would be who?
Also, that just is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this sentence, as if it were that simple.
Buttigieg. Whitmer. Beshear. Pritzker. Newsome. Fucking Klobuchar or Warren. Literally anyone else that would announce their candidacy as soon as Biden got out of the way. It’s the fucking democratic nomination, somebody out there wants it and given the chance to campaign would be able to beat Trump by miles. Half of them are starting at more or less equal odds with Trump even with NO campaigning whatsoever.
I’m not claiming to be clairvoyant but jesus have some imagination, a sense of object permanence. You’re not hearing about them because they aren’t challenging the incumbent president, not because they don’t exist.
Edit: and yes, given a real primary, it is that simple.
It is not that simple, when we’re talking about the national vote. Yes, another candidate could win the primary, but none of them have the kind of national presence to compete with Trump this close to the election. If they had been the candidate 2 years ago, maybe. Switching candidates this late will damage voter confidence, and will result in lower turnout, regardless of who the candidate is.
Imagination has nothing to do with it, this isn’t a Disney movie.
The oligarchy does not want an effective Democratic candidate
So, so many of us are going to vote for whoever the D is, no matter what. And Biden shit the bed, costing him those dumbass undecideds in the few states that will determine our collective future.
Anyone should be able to beat Trump after four years of lies, a felony, a coup attempt and overturning Roe. It’s absurd to think Biden is the only one who can.
Because, as the sitting President, the only person who can make that decision is Biden. It literally does not matter what anyone else says or does.
And Biden has shown complete contempt for public sentiment, not just on this topic but throughout his term.
I want to retire. I am sick of this country being run by workaholics. I want it to be run by people planning on not working themselves into the fucking grave, and expecting the rest of us to do so as well.
57 years is the oldest a candidate should be for a first-term presidency. 61 for a second term. If they still want to play politics, they can take a position in their local HOA.
I got work. Like 6 hours of meetings a day. With what energy would I use to ‘go to the streets’ to ask an old fuck who definitely can’t hear me to please retire. I don’t think he will hear me or care.
I’ll still vote for him I guess. Better Biden than the career criminal maniac.
*Career criminal maniac child rapist.
It boggles my mind that none of these are disqualifiers.
Because it’s hot outside.
Because in no case where they switched candidates in the process did they win an election.
None. It’s certain defeat.
Now, if someone would tell these people trying to nullify the vote to kindly fuck off, that’d be great.
At no point did any rocket reach the moon before 1969.
Something not really being done a lot before doesn’t mean you can use it as a statistical basis. Come on there are so many math nerds in here for that.
Learned passivity?
It’s bloody hot outside
Because most of the people elevating this narrative are right wing trolls and Russian trolls. Trump and Putin thrive on chaos and doubt. We are weaker as a country when we are fragmented and don’t stand firmly against a common evil
Because it is largely disinformation and people are being paid to write articles on it or claim such behind closed doors but not publicly
Wait a minute that seems like evidence the large majority of Democrats don’t feel he ‘must step aside!’ No, that can’t be it…maybe they’re just stupid?
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Perhaps both
Because we don’t want to get shot again by the cops the Democrats pretended to defend before saying they were needed to enforce order.
Plus working to death to afford to run air conditioning to not die in the apocalyptic climate change heat waves.
