For me, its selfish reasons. The side effects scare me and Im not willing to risk getting them. My health is very important to me, and i dont gamble with it. Very little alcohol or bad food, no smoking, lots of sleep, mostly healthy food etc.
That’s fine…if you live in the jungle. But potentially killing millions because it “might” have side effects, actually makes you worse than the religious antivaxxers.
You can at least say they where mislead, or scared into their beliefs. But you made the rational decision to sacrifice other’s lives (and possibly your own), so you don’t lose your perfect health streak.
Of course its fine. People do all kinds of things for their own convenience and dont care if it hurts others. Building factories, polluting the environment, driving cars, eating candy, drinking alcohol, loud music… Someone innocent pays the price for this, in the form of tax money for healthcare, or just getting sick because of it.
You are just pissed off because you think vaccines are special and everyone should risk their life for the common good. It makes no sense to make a personal sacrifice for some common good in this area.
Of course I think the things you listed should not be done either. I mean, cmon. We would all literally be better off if we just agreed not to fuck each other over.
Totally agree with not fucking eachother over, but look at the last decade. Social media has turned everyone into little keyboard warriors. Now we are fighting eachother based on minor differences in world view, and demonizing eachother, actually believing we are fighting evil on our phones.
I think humanity is in a bad shape and all of this could easily lead to the same thing Hitler did. Because once you start to see others as less than humans, a lot of your moral rules no longer apply to them.
We should all take a step back. I bet 10000 dollars that if I met you in a bar and we talked about vaccinations, we could have a conversation without hating eachother. But online, its all radicalized now. Lets keep that in mind and not be so easily manipulated. Most people are good and have reasons for why they do what they do.
I think you just have an education problem around it. What do you think the chance of side effects from a vaccine is, versus your chance of getting the disease? Be specific.
The most selfish thing is to get the vaccine. Depends on the disease but your chance of “side effect” from no vaccine is at least 1000x more than getting it.
Do you also never exercise because you’re afraid of injury? Do you never eat vegetables because they could be poisoned? Do you never sleep because you’re worried about being murdered in your sleep?
If the chance of side effects are higher than zero, its not worth it for me. I dont even eat headache pills.
I exercise all the time in a gym. The difference between tearing down my muscles and letting the body rebuild them stronger, and vaccinating your body by injecting a vaccine into your bloodstream, is huge. Its not even comparible.
I eat veggies but try to pick ones without poison spray, like anyone else i assume?
Sleeping and being murdered… Lol. That education you talk about, maybe you need some of that yourself here. :)
So you agree, the chance of side effects from taking no vaccine is not zero, therefore everyone should get a vaccine. Correct?
You should stop working out, the risk of injury is non-zero, correct?
Your risk of poison from veggies is non-zero, you should stop eating them. Correct?
Your risk of being murdered while walking out of the door is non-zero, you should board yourself in. Correct?
Why are you only focusing on the risk of vaccine side effect which is 100x smaller than these other risks? You didn’t answer my question about relative risk so yours is bad faith response.
2+2=4, can we agree on that? I’m assuming you don’t.
I dont see consequences from the virus as a side effect. I only use the word side effect as something that comes from the vaccine, not the virus.
The rest of your comment seems to say that we should never do anything positive if it has any negative effects. Obviously you are trying to make a point but I dont think it makes sense. If i get tired from exercise, obviously its still worth doing. It has no long term negative effects or any significant risks.
The side effects of vaccines are quite dangerous. Its not like getting tired after exercise. We are talking life altering side effects that may mean you cant even function normally. But you know this already so im not sure why you pretend (i assume) to not understand. The logic here is very simple.
You can call me selfish all you want, but your examples of why people should vaccinate despite their side effects are a bit funny. They dont even make sense. :)
There are virtually no negative side effects of vaccines. That claim is pants on fire false, you must provide evidence of it or your argument is bad faith. Since your reading comprehension skills are ~6-8th grade I find it unlikely you will be able to continue this conversation coherently.
“They dont even make sense.” your lack of logical comprehension is abjectly clear to any other person and unconvincing.
I understand where you come from even if I think we do have a responsibility to create Immunity through lowering transmission rates. It isn’t exactly noble but you have the self awareness to note that. Still the vehemence displayed towards vaccines doesn’t support your outcome.
Everyone who gets a vaccine effectively supports your health for you as it makes it less likely that it will spread to you who is unprotected. Many things vaccines are made to protect against have fairly bad long term effects on health. It doesn’t matter how well you personally take care of yourself polio permanently robs you of your stamina, measles robs you of the ability to fight off other diseases, flu can develop into long term pulmonary conditions and some viruses cause lifelong neurological problems. Getting any of those is entirely possible and just a matter of random chance.
I understand wanting to go through life essentially cheating the process by not having to experience any negative effects from disease or vaccine but it is essentially a lottery. Long term vaccine injury is a thing but the odds are very small. Those injury rates and the type of injury however are usually still less than the effects of getting hit by the diseases themselves and the rates associated with suffering the long term effects of one. However here’s where I become a little confused at why you’re advocating for normalizing your attitude : the more people who take the reasonable risk of vaccine injury the less diseases are able to transmit the less likely you personally are to encountering a debilitating and life threatening illness. If more people stop taking the vaccines your statistical outcome of getting through life unscathed goes dramatically down… So if selfish motives are at the core of your vaccine hesitancy why are you so vocal about your choice? Wouldn’t it personally benefit you to encourage other people to take that risk on your behalf?
So if selfish motives are at the core of your vaccine hesitancy why are you so vocal about your choice? Wouldn’t it personally benefit you to encourage other people to take that risk on your behalf?
Yes absolutely. But its more important to me to be someone who is honest about my choices and stand for them. Like you said yourself, Im fully aware that my choices are selfish. And ive accepted that, which is why im also not easily affected by group pressure telling me im selfish. I know i am and I think its ok to sometimes be selfish and think about putting ourselves first.
I used to live in an apartment where loud music was being played every weekend, and I remember the emotional trauma of not being able to sleep on weekends after coming home tired from work and a long week. Just endless music and base through the walls until late into the morning. I remember at one point, I even bought wine and drank several glasses just because I hoped I would be able to sleep despite the noise. It kind of worked but my weekend was ruined and I was extreamly tired all weekend.
That story above is just to show how little people care about others. And its just one many examples. If you live on this planet, you know people put themselves first in many cases. I usually always care about what others think, much more than the general public seem to. But im not risking my health for others. Have to draw the line there.
Not sure I buy it. This honesty comes across as wanting to have your cake and eat it too. If it were pure selfishness at play your ace move would be to encourage others to utilize vaccines so that your personal risk is minimized by upping the social pressure to get vaccines… and then just quietly not take them yourself. As someone who thinks it’s moral to protect people who are immunocompromised and cannot protect themselves except through joint Immunity projects it benefits my aims and the people I know who live their lives under increased risks they can’t personally mitigate to increase the social pressures to take vaccines.
Our goals should align here because as long as the social pressure remains hightened both aims benefit. Your statistical best chance of achieving your stated aim is to just lie or stay mum.
But that’s not what you’re doing and if you were really inoculated against social pressures than the increased social pressure of just quietly not conforming wouldn’t effect you negatively. You are effectively platforming your veiw that there should be less social pressure because you ultimately are effected by that social pressure and you want people’s tacit endorsement that what you are doing is okay. This isn’t ultimately about vaccines for you. It’s about how you’re personally made to feel about it and that isn’t terribly compelling in the face of altruistic endeavours.
The anecdote about the loud apartment music is something of an unnecessary red herring and a somewhat confusing one. I get that your premise is that people are horrible so you should be horrible too but is that really the answer? Those people were acting selfishly but if they were corrected by increasing the social pressure to stop by the residents around them making a fuss or by a culture that reinforces that considering the needs of people in your vicinity more highly is a common good you wouldn’t have suffered for their selfishness. Your way doesn’t see an actual reduction in the occurrence of the problem. It endorses more problems that are left to fester.
Your statistical best chance of achieving your stated aim is to just lie or stay mum.
I know, but like I said, its more important to me to be truthful and honest. I guess I have some kind of feeling of it being important, specially if im going to respect myself. I dont want to be someone that lies for benefits or public appearence.
You are wrong about what I want also. I dont need endorsement that what im doing is ok. I already think its ok and public opinion doesnt change that at all. I have my own strong opinion about this topic as you can clearly see. If others dont agree, thats fine. I was just starting to comment because someone talked about antivaxxers and assuming all kinds of nonsense reasons why we dont do it, like we dont like needles and shit like that. I wanted to say its about something much deeper - not wanting to risk getting vaccine side effects. And thats it.
And yeah, the apartment story was just to highlight how almost nobody thinks of the public good in day to day scenarios. But when it comes to vaccines, we should risk getting side effects and have no problems with it? Im just not on that vibe I guess.
The point I am making is that you are doing two things here. The first shows a fear for your personal safety and represents a very understandable reluctance. People usually get that part. It represents a non-ideal outcome but people are generally fairly willing to write it off.
However when people come on here and posting the way you are trying to advocate for your position to be one of unchallenged normalcy it is trying to achieve a totally separate second task. You are trying to reinforce an oppossing social pressure in direct opposition to the goals of others with the intention of group safety. You are either not being honest with yourself or not being honest with us about your intentions are but that doesn’t really matter because regardless you’re going from being a smaller problem for people to one that is standing directly in their path.
A lot of the time this second task isn’t elucidated properly because you framed this as an argument about how best to achieve your personal safety which is a fundamentally different arguement… But people arguing against you often are approaching you from this second task because you are not arguing effectively for personal safety when your actions and stated desiref outcome don’t align.
You are effectively arguing for lower general safety by fighting against the social pressures that are in service of raising the bar of protections. That is in direct opposition to your goals and theirs. Why would the misconception about a fear of needles matter when it doesn’t change your modis operandi and you statedly do not care? Why is lying the lesser evil then being selfish?
Would it clear some things up if people just said “We don’t particularly care about your fear of vaccine injury. Our pushback is actively trying to engineer society to protect a wider swath of the human population and your fears aren’t relevant to that aim but the repetition and specific means of open expression of those fears as being something worthy of respect is in direct conflict”?
Im not arguing for anyone to do what I do. Its extreamly obvious that my decision is worse for the group if the group thinks everyone should vaccinate no matter at what cost to their personal safety.
I dont care if someone does what I do, or if they do something else. :)
And why do you think you need to clear things up? Nothing you said is even remotely difficult to understand. Its like trying to clear up what today’s weather is going to be. This is not about one of us not understanding things. Its just about personal choices for reasons we both have.
Because I don’t think one hops around a topic replying to a multitude of strangers with fairly combative short little posts that convey a sense of being personally attacked if they have a solid understanding of this principle?
Because there’s only three ways people respond to an argument based out of ‘everyman for themselves’ logic. The most common is to respond with a “well fuck you too” attitude and the second is to double down on their belief that that’s not a good principle. I wonder why one would open themselves up to that and behave like it’s compelling if you’re already aware? The juice doesn’t seem worth the squeeze.
I dont have the feeling of being personally attacked. Is it possible that you are reading things into this thread that isnt actually there? Because im enjoying the discussions. And I dont think your opinion is strange, but I also dont think my opinion is strange. Its fine to disagree and be ok with it.
As for the juice not being worth the squeeze, I told you two times already but I guess you dont believe me. I just think I should be honest with my opinions even when there is no gain to be had, only downvotes. Its important for my self respect to not lie for popularity.
For me, its selfish reasons. The side effects scare me and Im not willing to risk getting them. My health is very important to me, and i dont gamble with it. Very little alcohol or bad food, no smoking, lots of sleep, mostly healthy food etc.
That’s fine…if you live in the jungle. But potentially killing millions because it “might” have side effects, actually makes you worse than the religious antivaxxers.
You can at least say they where mislead, or scared into their beliefs. But you made the rational decision to sacrifice other’s lives (and possibly your own), so you don’t lose your perfect health streak.
Of course its fine. People do all kinds of things for their own convenience and dont care if it hurts others. Building factories, polluting the environment, driving cars, eating candy, drinking alcohol, loud music… Someone innocent pays the price for this, in the form of tax money for healthcare, or just getting sick because of it.
You are just pissed off because you think vaccines are special and everyone should risk their life for the common good. It makes no sense to make a personal sacrifice for some common good in this area.
Of course I think the things you listed should not be done either. I mean, cmon. We would all literally be better off if we just agreed not to fuck each other over.
But war it is I guess. War to the last human.
Totally agree with not fucking eachother over, but look at the last decade. Social media has turned everyone into little keyboard warriors. Now we are fighting eachother based on minor differences in world view, and demonizing eachother, actually believing we are fighting evil on our phones.
I think humanity is in a bad shape and all of this could easily lead to the same thing Hitler did. Because once you start to see others as less than humans, a lot of your moral rules no longer apply to them.
We should all take a step back. I bet 10000 dollars that if I met you in a bar and we talked about vaccinations, we could have a conversation without hating eachother. But online, its all radicalized now. Lets keep that in mind and not be so easily manipulated. Most people are good and have reasons for why they do what they do.
My health is very important to me, that’s why I want to die from preventable diseases.
I think you just have an education problem around it. What do you think the chance of side effects from a vaccine is, versus your chance of getting the disease? Be specific.
The most selfish thing is to get the vaccine. Depends on the disease but your chance of “side effect” from no vaccine is at least 1000x more than getting it.
Do you also never exercise because you’re afraid of injury? Do you never eat vegetables because they could be poisoned? Do you never sleep because you’re worried about being murdered in your sleep?
If the chance of side effects are higher than zero, its not worth it for me. I dont even eat headache pills.
I exercise all the time in a gym. The difference between tearing down my muscles and letting the body rebuild them stronger, and vaccinating your body by injecting a vaccine into your bloodstream, is huge. Its not even comparible.
I eat veggies but try to pick ones without poison spray, like anyone else i assume?
Sleeping and being murdered… Lol. That education you talk about, maybe you need some of that yourself here. :)
So you agree, the chance of side effects from taking no vaccine is not zero, therefore everyone should get a vaccine. Correct?
You should stop working out, the risk of injury is non-zero, correct?
Your risk of poison from veggies is non-zero, you should stop eating them. Correct?
Your risk of being murdered while walking out of the door is non-zero, you should board yourself in. Correct?
Why are you only focusing on the risk of vaccine side effect which is 100x smaller than these other risks? You didn’t answer my question about relative risk so yours is bad faith response.
2+2=4, can we agree on that? I’m assuming you don’t.
I dont see consequences from the virus as a side effect. I only use the word side effect as something that comes from the vaccine, not the virus.
The rest of your comment seems to say that we should never do anything positive if it has any negative effects. Obviously you are trying to make a point but I dont think it makes sense. If i get tired from exercise, obviously its still worth doing. It has no long term negative effects or any significant risks.
The side effects of vaccines are quite dangerous. Its not like getting tired after exercise. We are talking life altering side effects that may mean you cant even function normally. But you know this already so im not sure why you pretend (i assume) to not understand. The logic here is very simple.
You can call me selfish all you want, but your examples of why people should vaccinate despite their side effects are a bit funny. They dont even make sense. :)
There are virtually no negative side effects of vaccines. That claim is pants on fire false, you must provide evidence of it or your argument is bad faith. Since your reading comprehension skills are ~6-8th grade I find it unlikely you will be able to continue this conversation coherently.
“They dont even make sense.” your lack of logical comprehension is abjectly clear to any other person and unconvincing.
I dont have to do anything :)
Certainly thinking critically is one of those things as well. Enjoy your bliss (ignorance).
Classic.
Makes perfect sense in my opinion.
I know! That’s what makes it classic.
I understand where you come from even if I think we do have a responsibility to create Immunity through lowering transmission rates. It isn’t exactly noble but you have the self awareness to note that. Still the vehemence displayed towards vaccines doesn’t support your outcome.
Everyone who gets a vaccine effectively supports your health for you as it makes it less likely that it will spread to you who is unprotected. Many things vaccines are made to protect against have fairly bad long term effects on health. It doesn’t matter how well you personally take care of yourself polio permanently robs you of your stamina, measles robs you of the ability to fight off other diseases, flu can develop into long term pulmonary conditions and some viruses cause lifelong neurological problems. Getting any of those is entirely possible and just a matter of random chance.
I understand wanting to go through life essentially cheating the process by not having to experience any negative effects from disease or vaccine but it is essentially a lottery. Long term vaccine injury is a thing but the odds are very small. Those injury rates and the type of injury however are usually still less than the effects of getting hit by the diseases themselves and the rates associated with suffering the long term effects of one. However here’s where I become a little confused at why you’re advocating for normalizing your attitude : the more people who take the reasonable risk of vaccine injury the less diseases are able to transmit the less likely you personally are to encountering a debilitating and life threatening illness. If more people stop taking the vaccines your statistical outcome of getting through life unscathed goes dramatically down… So if selfish motives are at the core of your vaccine hesitancy why are you so vocal about your choice? Wouldn’t it personally benefit you to encourage other people to take that risk on your behalf?
Yes absolutely. But its more important to me to be someone who is honest about my choices and stand for them. Like you said yourself, Im fully aware that my choices are selfish. And ive accepted that, which is why im also not easily affected by group pressure telling me im selfish. I know i am and I think its ok to sometimes be selfish and think about putting ourselves first.
I used to live in an apartment where loud music was being played every weekend, and I remember the emotional trauma of not being able to sleep on weekends after coming home tired from work and a long week. Just endless music and base through the walls until late into the morning. I remember at one point, I even bought wine and drank several glasses just because I hoped I would be able to sleep despite the noise. It kind of worked but my weekend was ruined and I was extreamly tired all weekend.
That story above is just to show how little people care about others. And its just one many examples. If you live on this planet, you know people put themselves first in many cases. I usually always care about what others think, much more than the general public seem to. But im not risking my health for others. Have to draw the line there.
Not sure I buy it. This honesty comes across as wanting to have your cake and eat it too. If it were pure selfishness at play your ace move would be to encourage others to utilize vaccines so that your personal risk is minimized by upping the social pressure to get vaccines… and then just quietly not take them yourself. As someone who thinks it’s moral to protect people who are immunocompromised and cannot protect themselves except through joint Immunity projects it benefits my aims and the people I know who live their lives under increased risks they can’t personally mitigate to increase the social pressures to take vaccines.
Our goals should align here because as long as the social pressure remains hightened both aims benefit. Your statistical best chance of achieving your stated aim is to just lie or stay mum.
But that’s not what you’re doing and if you were really inoculated against social pressures than the increased social pressure of just quietly not conforming wouldn’t effect you negatively. You are effectively platforming your veiw that there should be less social pressure because you ultimately are effected by that social pressure and you want people’s tacit endorsement that what you are doing is okay. This isn’t ultimately about vaccines for you. It’s about how you’re personally made to feel about it and that isn’t terribly compelling in the face of altruistic endeavours.
The anecdote about the loud apartment music is something of an unnecessary red herring and a somewhat confusing one. I get that your premise is that people are horrible so you should be horrible too but is that really the answer? Those people were acting selfishly but if they were corrected by increasing the social pressure to stop by the residents around them making a fuss or by a culture that reinforces that considering the needs of people in your vicinity more highly is a common good you wouldn’t have suffered for their selfishness. Your way doesn’t see an actual reduction in the occurrence of the problem. It endorses more problems that are left to fester.
I know, but like I said, its more important to me to be truthful and honest. I guess I have some kind of feeling of it being important, specially if im going to respect myself. I dont want to be someone that lies for benefits or public appearence.
You are wrong about what I want also. I dont need endorsement that what im doing is ok. I already think its ok and public opinion doesnt change that at all. I have my own strong opinion about this topic as you can clearly see. If others dont agree, thats fine. I was just starting to comment because someone talked about antivaxxers and assuming all kinds of nonsense reasons why we dont do it, like we dont like needles and shit like that. I wanted to say its about something much deeper - not wanting to risk getting vaccine side effects. And thats it.
And yeah, the apartment story was just to highlight how almost nobody thinks of the public good in day to day scenarios. But when it comes to vaccines, we should risk getting side effects and have no problems with it? Im just not on that vibe I guess.
The point I am making is that you are doing two things here. The first shows a fear for your personal safety and represents a very understandable reluctance. People usually get that part. It represents a non-ideal outcome but people are generally fairly willing to write it off.
However when people come on here and posting the way you are trying to advocate for your position to be one of unchallenged normalcy it is trying to achieve a totally separate second task. You are trying to reinforce an oppossing social pressure in direct opposition to the goals of others with the intention of group safety. You are either not being honest with yourself or not being honest with us about your intentions are but that doesn’t really matter because regardless you’re going from being a smaller problem for people to one that is standing directly in their path.
A lot of the time this second task isn’t elucidated properly because you framed this as an argument about how best to achieve your personal safety which is a fundamentally different arguement… But people arguing against you often are approaching you from this second task because you are not arguing effectively for personal safety when your actions and stated desiref outcome don’t align.
You are effectively arguing for lower general safety by fighting against the social pressures that are in service of raising the bar of protections. That is in direct opposition to your goals and theirs. Why would the misconception about a fear of needles matter when it doesn’t change your modis operandi and you statedly do not care? Why is lying the lesser evil then being selfish?
Would it clear some things up if people just said “We don’t particularly care about your fear of vaccine injury. Our pushback is actively trying to engineer society to protect a wider swath of the human population and your fears aren’t relevant to that aim but the repetition and specific means of open expression of those fears as being something worthy of respect is in direct conflict”?
Im not arguing for anyone to do what I do. Its extreamly obvious that my decision is worse for the group if the group thinks everyone should vaccinate no matter at what cost to their personal safety.
I dont care if someone does what I do, or if they do something else. :)
And why do you think you need to clear things up? Nothing you said is even remotely difficult to understand. Its like trying to clear up what today’s weather is going to be. This is not about one of us not understanding things. Its just about personal choices for reasons we both have.
Because I don’t think one hops around a topic replying to a multitude of strangers with fairly combative short little posts that convey a sense of being personally attacked if they have a solid understanding of this principle?
Because there’s only three ways people respond to an argument based out of ‘everyman for themselves’ logic. The most common is to respond with a “well fuck you too” attitude and the second is to double down on their belief that that’s not a good principle. I wonder why one would open themselves up to that and behave like it’s compelling if you’re already aware? The juice doesn’t seem worth the squeeze.
I dont have the feeling of being personally attacked. Is it possible that you are reading things into this thread that isnt actually there? Because im enjoying the discussions. And I dont think your opinion is strange, but I also dont think my opinion is strange. Its fine to disagree and be ok with it.
As for the juice not being worth the squeeze, I told you two times already but I guess you dont believe me. I just think I should be honest with my opinions even when there is no gain to be had, only downvotes. Its important for my self respect to not lie for popularity.