Stop acting like you care about Ukrainians. You just want the Ukrainians to keep fighting so europe and the US dont have to, and can use innocent ukrainians as meat shields. Your scared Russia will keep going after Ukraine and are completely fine with letting Ukrainians die to keep europe safe.
You claim to care about Ukrainians yet your on hexbear of all places arguing with random internet people who just want peace instead of reckoning with the fact that this war only happened because the US and europe pressured Ukraine to give up its nukes in exchange for security garuntees they didnt honor, and literally purposefully antagnoized Russia hoping it would do this. And then they used the war to test their weapons and get rid of backstock without having to use their own soldiers.
You also seem to not care about the Ukrainians who were being slaughtered by Azov before this war even started. A battalion trained by the west and purposefully radicalized to cause chaos in Ukraine.
You reduce an entire war and the mutli decade lead up to it down to “Well do you support Ukraine or Russia” as if either option is somehow the moral choice. Moral people support PEACE. It doesnt matter what flag flies over your head if you can choose to either be shot at or not. you choose to not be shot at.
Would it be nice if we could go back in time and warn Ukraine not to give up its nukes and not to trust the wests garuntees? Yeah. But we cant. We have to deal with the situation we have, and somehow stop the horrific war taking place before even more innocent people die. If thinking that the war should end before Ukraine literally runs out of soldiers to send to die makes me a “Russia supporter” then whatever. Fuck you.
US and europe pressured Ukraine to give up its nukes in exchange for security garuntees they didnt honor,
The modern state of Ukraine never had nukes. The Ukrainian SSR held nukes within its territory, but Russia is the legal successor state to the USSR and took on all its debts, obligations, and nuclear weapons. All nations agreed to this. Modern Ukraine was never trusted to have nukes, never took on the requisite obligations and treaties, and never owned them for even a split second. This is a Western re-framing of reality
This is a modern fantasy about Ukraine having nukes that never happened, this entire comment was ahistorical. Ukraine never had nukes to give up, never had a chance in hell of keeping the Ukrainian SSR nukes, and the security guarantees that Ukraine received at the time were from Russia and against the encroaching West. Ukrainians at that time were not concerned with Russia invading them but with NATO and western aggression. It was Russia that failed to uphold its security guarantees by allowing the 2014 coup and the NATO takeover. Russia failed Ukraine by not immediately invading and destroying the Western Nazi takeover.
No, it’s the factual reality. The modern state of Ukraine never had nukes to “give up”. Russia always legally owned all of USSR’s nukes. They went from 100% USSR control to 100% Russia control. Not ever for a single moment in history has Ukraine ever owned a nuke
It’s also a fact that in those discussions the Ukrainian representatives main demand for security guarantees was requesting the aid of Russia, not the West. Historical documents prove this. It’s not just an “interpretation of the facts”.
Stop acting like you care about Ukrainians. You just want the Ukrainians to keep fighting so europe and the US dont have to, and can use innocent ukrainians as meat shields. Your scared Russia will keep going after Ukraine and are completely fine with letting Ukrainians die to keep europe safe.
You claim to care about Ukrainians yet your on hexbear of all places arguing with random internet people who just want peace instead of reckoning with the fact that this war only happened because the US and europe pressured Ukraine to give up its nukes in exchange for security garuntees they didnt honor, and literally purposefully antagnoized Russia hoping it would do this. And then they used the war to test their weapons and get rid of backstock without having to use their own soldiers.
You also seem to not care about the Ukrainians who were being slaughtered by Azov before this war even started. A battalion trained by the west and purposefully radicalized to cause chaos in Ukraine.
You reduce an entire war and the mutli decade lead up to it down to “Well do you support Ukraine or Russia” as if either option is somehow the moral choice. Moral people support PEACE. It doesnt matter what flag flies over your head if you can choose to either be shot at or not. you choose to not be shot at.
Would it be nice if we could go back in time and warn Ukraine not to give up its nukes and not to trust the wests garuntees? Yeah. But we cant. We have to deal with the situation we have, and somehow stop the horrific war taking place before even more innocent people die. If thinking that the war should end before Ukraine literally runs out of soldiers to send to die makes me a “Russia supporter” then whatever. Fuck you.
The modern state of Ukraine never had nukes. The Ukrainian SSR held nukes within its territory, but Russia is the legal successor state to the USSR and took on all its debts, obligations, and nuclear weapons. All nations agreed to this. Modern Ukraine was never trusted to have nukes, never took on the requisite obligations and treaties, and never owned them for even a split second. This is a Western re-framing of reality
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This is a modern fantasy about Ukraine having nukes that never happened, this entire comment was ahistorical. Ukraine never had nukes to give up, never had a chance in hell of keeping the Ukrainian SSR nukes, and the security guarantees that Ukraine received at the time were from Russia and against the encroaching West. Ukrainians at that time were not concerned with Russia invading them but with NATO and western aggression. It was Russia that failed to uphold its security guarantees by allowing the 2014 coup and the NATO takeover. Russia failed Ukraine by not immediately invading and destroying the Western Nazi takeover.
Yes, that’s another perspective on the same set of facts
No, it’s the factual reality. The modern state of Ukraine never had nukes to “give up”. Russia always legally owned all of USSR’s nukes. They went from 100% USSR control to 100% Russia control. Not ever for a single moment in history has Ukraine ever owned a nuke
It’s also a fact that in those discussions the Ukrainian representatives main demand for security guarantees was requesting the aid of Russia, not the West. Historical documents prove this. It’s not just an “interpretation of the facts”.