Harris only received five percent of Republican votes — less than the six percent Joe Biden won in 2020 when he beat Trump, as well as the seven percent won by Hillary Clinton in 2016 when she lost to him. While Harris won independents and moderates, she did so by smaller margins than Biden did in 2020.
Meanwhile, Harris lost households earning under $100,000, while Democratic turnout collapsed. Votes are still being counted, but Harris is on pace to underperform Biden’s 2020 totals by millions of votes.
If there’s one lesson the DNC should learn it’s this.
They won’t. But they should.
Why learn anything, the policies they want will be implemented anyway 🧠
Because they are selling peace with unicorn kisses and hope just to steal your money and you pay for it with hope.
Such a fucking stupid take.
If there is one lesson we should learn, it’s that they don’t care to win. They are owned by the same corporate big wigs as Trump. They’re on the same team, capitalism.
They only learn what they want to hear.
the party can’t fail it can only be failed
We need to go through them or around them. They wont change and they wont be convinced. That sort of sniveling triangulating intellectual cowardice cant be cured.
The two parties have a lock on power. There is no going around them as you’ll just be ineffectual and corrupt distractions like Stein and RFK jr.
Body knows the problem. Everywhere you see they went to far left not left enough. Everyone has their opinion and nobody knows why this happened. I just know if single issue voters on gaze didn’t vote then they get what they deserve.
It literally doesn’t matter if all you have to do is lie and promise everything.
Stupid article.
I mean that’s basically what Obama did. It’s what Trump does. If you promise 100% and only give 30% you’ll be remembered as a good or good ish president. 60%+ and you’re the greatest president of all time. But when you promise -10% you’re just not gonna win.
Hell, just imagine if Democrats hadn’t let the parliamentarian stand in their way on the minimum wage. Just that by itself would have made it a lot harder for Republicans to claim that Democrats don’t give a shit if their voters can pay for food.
Sinema’s thumbs down remains Democrats’ last word on the subject. And it’s not like she was the lone obstructionist in the party. She was one of EIGHT Democrats who voted against raising the minimum wage.
that parliamentarian is just too darn powerful. We’ll never be able to beat them.
Clearly had a mandate from the people, what with being an appointed position that no one voted on. In a democracy, that always beats those we get to vote on.
Talk about not learning anything… 🤦
If we wanted to be Republicans we’d be Republicans for fucks sake…
We can’t have 2 parties fighting to be the most hateful party of the billionaires. I mean I guess we can but only one gets to win.
The Democrats have been chasing the mythical moderate conservative at the expense of the progressive left forever and have learned nothing. I want a fire and brimstone progressive who is belligerent and aggressive
I’d even be happy to settle for someone in the middle of the party willing to fight for the party’s supposed ideals. Remember when one of her slogans was “when we fight, we win”? Not “when we bipartisan, we win” or “when we coopt conservative issues, we win”.
Talk is cheap. She won’t learn from this. If she did she would be fighting the shit out of him taking office.
Instead they’re happily handing over the vulnerable of this country to Nazis.
I mean, the article clearly says that she won moderates.
The Republicans had their little tea party a few years ago. The Democrats need a Guillotine Party to properly represent us.
The Tea Party forced the GOP to rebrand and restructure itself around the most extreme right wing ideas possible
Occupy Wallstreet tried to do the same thing, and… were savagely beaten by the police over it.
Because the Tea Party was useful to just make the Republicans more unapologetically anti-government (something rich people like) while Occupy was demanding that Democrats become unapologetically antagonistic to rich people.
The police choose who they will protect and who they will serve.
the police have no choice. They are owned by the billionaire and exist to protect wealth and privilege.
They had the billionaire Koch’s to fund that. We’re never getting a billionaire to fund the leopard party that will eat their faces.
:(
The guillotine party knows how to deal with the second estate.
Yeah, there should have been limits set on campaign costs, lobbying, media, etc. It’s at a point where it doesn’t seem like it’s even possible to have a middle-class focused campaign that can openly say its basis is on taxing the fuck out of the top 1%.
But all I know is this: the second Trump term will make the standard of life in America far worse for most people. There will be hunger in 2028 for someone to simply say “We’ll fix the middle class, and we’ll make Musk, Bezos, etc pay for it”. Hopefully by then what’s left of twitter will not be as relevant as today, so that the message can at least have a hope of spreading through social media successfully.
I want to be hopeful but I can’t find a logical progression to that stage knowing what the Republicans plan to do and their stranglehold on popular social media. The population will continue to be brainwashed into thinking Trump gives a shit and see him helping while also being told right wing Democrats are communists…
No one else stands a chance when we have corporate media or right wing social media as our options. I know there was a socialist candidate this cycle and Lemmy was literally the only place I saw her.
2028, I’ll be campaigning on Squeeze the Billionaires Until the Pips Squeak.
Actually, the Guillotine Party sounds like a great idea.
Literally with that name. 😍
My take on this is that the DNC has never understood that to win the presidency in the last 20 years you need to be a fire brand.
I think this stared in 2008 with Obama who won I believe because he fired up the base with great speeches about hope and change. It didn’t really happen, BUT the man knew how to give a speech. That got people inspired to do something and they voted.
Bernie was another fire brand - told it like it was and it appealed to a large population.
trump won using the same idea, but just the opposite of hope and change yet it worked. It tapped into a visceral and deep frustration that this country has left them behind.
The modern view of the American president to the population is less of a wonky politician and more of a cheerleader for big ideas, even if those ideas are abhorrent and exceedingly horrifying.
Harris just wasn’t the person to pull this off, she was too wonky and it felt like the entire campaign was playing the old card of “we are not trump” Instead if they really wanted to win they would have found ( 2 years ago) a feisty out spoken progressive leaning firebrand that would have inspired people to vote for something better.
The only reason that (bland) Biden won was because of how badly trump fucked up the Covid response.
I think when she was announced as the candidate, she fired up the base just fine. She was different.
Then she spent the rest of the campaign reassuring people that nothing would change, pissing away that enthusiasm.
One of the frustrations I had was her solution to the housing problem was to just build more houses and give out some money. Sure great, but what I wanted to hear, and I think many other also wanted to hear, was her talking about corporate hording of housing and what she would do about that situation. But she just ignored it completely and so did Biden.
I think instead if she came out swinging against corporate greed, even if she actually did nothing about it, would have given her more votes.
My one hope out of this is that the massive swing to the right will be countered with more vocal progressives.
She didn’t even really have a plan to build more houses, just some subsidies that wouldn’t put a dent in the problem. She should have proposed something ambitious that people could get excited about. The crazy thing is Biden had some big ambitious policies that he actudlly enacted like the Inflation Reduction Act that dwarf anything Kamala campaigned on. It’s the opposite of a winning approach that sells the stars and delivers the moon.
There are plenty of houses. Repossess then from Blackrock and sell them at normal rates
Building houses and giving out money WOULD have helped the housing problem. WTF?
I didn’t say it wouldn’t have helped. That wasn’t the point of the comment.
What I was getting at was that if she wanted to motivate voters, especially more progressive voters, then she needed to go bigger than “build some houses and hand out some money.”
What they wanted to hear from their candidate was a bolder and stronger solution like outlawing corporations from owning thousands of homes. Take a firm stand on corporate greed and corporate inflation. But she never talked about that.
Exactly. “I’m not trump” barely got Biden in when trump was the incumbent with covid running rampant. It didn’t work for Clinton in 2016 and unsurprisingly it didn’t work for Harris in 2024. The level of incompetence at the DNC really makes me think the actual goal is to prevent our politics/country from shifting to the left at any cost.
My feeling is that once the DNC starts to acknowledge the progressive ideas then they open the flood gates to challengers to their (limited) power.
Which is really weird because her professed policies WOULD have changed things. https://www.politifact.com/article/2024/sep/30/kamala-harris-2024-campaign-promises-here-are-her/
The Dems also need to get it through their skulls that it’s not just trump. The problem was present in McConnell and Gingrich. We need multiple parties willing to work together for the good of all Americans. Unfortunately the democrats are idiots with the policies of a quite reasonable right wing and the republicans are fascists who have spent 30 years rejecting their own ideas when said by democrats
Here’s a fun little tip if you’re ever able to try this again.
MLK Jr. never appealed to the white man, he never tried to win over whitey nor tone down his message so that he didn’t alienate his opressors, and he never tried to get the Klan on his side.
Notice how we don’t have segregation anymore? It’s because if Dr. King did these things, he’d have been luaghed at.
And instead he was shot at, not for the race stuff, but when he started talking about the class divide in general.
It was both. The fbi really hated the race stuff.
The same with RFK. Both he and MLK were murdered ONLY after they started to militate against economic injustice.
The militancy of Malcolm X’s message played a big part in that. Powerful whites were scared of Malcolm so they decided to work with MLK
Yeah, the notion that she was going to put a Republican in her cabinet…did anyone think that was a good idea? I mean, outside the beltway media?
I know every early on she was talking about possibly having a Republican Vice President before she wised up and went with Tim Walz and ran on his progressive ideas for about… three seconds till Nancy and the DNC told her to just do what Hillary did, as that worked for her and Kamela is obviously the second female president right now. /s
Seeing Walz as her VP pick was such a win and then everything started slipping away. If you listened to her speeches you’d start to notice she was slowly leaning more conservative, slowly backpedaling on a lot of Biden admin policies even. And for some reason she was absolutely obsessed with going on right wing media outlets.
I genuinely think she’s rather well spoken but what a waste of potential.
I was kind of Lukewarm on Walz initially, but he was super endearing. He was cooking there for a minute and then the DNC muzzled him. I remember the moment he got shut up about the electoral college I thought to myself “annnnd now all of his appeal is gone and he’s just another boring politician”. It was really startling to see how little he actually had to do to get the leash tugged.
Yep. Walz was a win and if the DNC was actually about it, they’d back him in the next primary and pair him with a firebrand Texan (or other southern native) while letting them do their thing.
Big IF though…
And to think it might have worked if she just went on Joe Rogan
No. America would never elect a woman who wasn’t a boot-licking slave to the patriarchy. Which is why I think we’ll see a GOP president, if we ever have even fake elections in the future.
That was a media lie. She said that sarcastically and both her and the reporter were laughing. Media didn’t report that fact, other than the original interview which aired like one time.
She said repeatedly toward the end that she would keep people she disagrees with close to her in the white house because she’s open minded or something
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Yes. When you abandon the left, they don’t vote for you. This is what Clinton did too
They have clearly internalized the pervasive trope that leftists will vote for them, because they have no other choice, so the only thing that matters to convince is the right. Looks like they calculated wrong.
Obama got people excited about healthcare reform. Biden got people excited about student debt relief. Clinton tried to get people excited about a female president and Harris centered her campaign around running against Trump.
Social programs get people excited.
Biden got people excited about student debt relief.
This is not why Biden got elected. Trump so badly mishandled Covid that everyone left of center demanded change.
The failure to realize Covid is the only reason Biden won cost the Democrats. In the swing states 2024 Trump beats 2020 Biden by vote count.
I don’t think you can point to one specific thing that got Biden elected. Covid mismanagement was a huge part of it, but student debt relief and other progressive proposals that Bernie pushed the campaign into played a big part as well. Even with Covid, I think there’s a good chance that Biden would have lost if he’d run the same kind of centrist campaign that Harris and Clinton ran.
everyone left of center demanded change.
I think you mean “everyone left of FASCISM” because liberals are center-right at best. Center left is Social Democracy (Bernie Sanders and AOC)
agreed. Biden won because people voted against Trump. Every other time Biden ran, and there were many, he couldnt even win his home state. He was and is a joke of a politician, and his legacy is a Trump win becaus he was so unpopular.
“Never underestimate Joe Bidens ability to fuck everything up” –Barrack Obama.
Student debt was not a campaign platform he ran on, it was something he did during his presidency.
He did run on Green New Deal and the original proposal that later became the $2 trillion Infrastructure investment/bill/plan.
But to your point, yes he ran on platforms that people got excited. Both of those platforms were new economic opportunities for people in a time when people when much of the labor class was jobless from COVID.
Every time
The funny thing is that Harris had a lot of progressive policies. She didn’t tout them for some reason. Which I suspect was to get GOPers on board. Have a look here and wonder why she didn’t talk more about them: https://www.politifact.com/article/2024/sep/30/kamala-harris-2024-campaign-promises-here-are-her/
Because most of them were worth less than the bits than they were stored on. She never would have gotten them through congress. She just put them there. 🤷 You’ll note the things she could have done unilaterally like end shipments to israel and commit to keeping kahn she flat out refused to do/support.
NO! Harris just needed to go further right. Forced goose-stepping marches at rallies. Pledges to eradicate all minorities. Promise global wars of conquest.
Outflank Trump on the right, and the republicans AND democrats will vote for you.
Don’t tempt centrists.
In a really morbid way that would’ve been funny to see, if only to witness the confusion of conservatives.
Usually somewhat ironic, but:
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishhook_Theory
Fishhook Theory (or Fish Hook Theory) is an idea in left-right political science juxtaposed to Horseshoe Theory. Fishhook Theory asserts that the far-right and centrists are very similar, whereas the far-left is separate from them. Fishhook Theory takes its name from the fishhook shape it assumes the political spectrum to be, where the point of the hook is pictured to be the far-right, the eye is pictured to be the far-left, and the shank is pictured to be the centre.
When it comes down to it, when they’re forced to take a side, the centrists will always side with the fascists over the Left. We’ve seen that happen consistently.
I mean, they would rather do that than move one Planck length to the left.
I don’t get why it’s hard to comprehend. By becoming (even) more conservative, more “R”, they betrayed (even more of) their base. Why would timid Republicans want to vote for traitors pandering to them?
Shit I was saying when Biden was still running and I got crucified for it.
As you shift to the right you leave your base behind, ignoring a growing, left swinging faction within the party is going to lead to outcomes like this. Working class people all have the same problems, and one party says they’ll do something about it. They’re lying, people who are generally smarter and paying attention know they’re lying, but that’s not most people.
The other party has had a chance, and failed to do anything to alleviate the concerns of the working class. Regardless of the circumstances, or their actual ability to affect change. And they spent the entire election cycle trying to curry votes from a dedicated base instead of getting voters excited about something.
Swing left, swing hard. Become the unhinged leftist the other side is already accusing you of being.
Its a two party system, why would anyone think being a bit more like the other guy be a good idea?
Why would someone pick knockoff awful when the name brand is right there?
Monopolistic competition makes a lot of wild assumptions that can result in such ideas.
I was called a Russian asset in 2020 for saying this and even more in 2024.
It sucks so much to be so right about something so horrible.
There’s people saying anyone saying dems need to move left are just spreading Russian propaganda
Yep, surely if we get elections in 2028 (unlikely) we need to run a KKK member as a Democrat! You have to vote for him, Trump’s 3rd term will unleash a nuke on Africa.
Please ignore they both want to nuke Africa.
Not only that, if she’s not targeting Democrats they won’t feel motivated to vote for her. Yes, yes, fascism was the other option. But people are not smart, and I say that as a people.
Democrats would prefer to lose than become more progressive because the rich and powerful still benefit from Republicans winning or Democrats winning as long as Democrats are still centre-right wing.
As soon as Democrats move left the elites start to lose so Democrats don’t.
And we won’t have another election again, so these democratic voters who stayed home have denied themselves any other opportunities to right this ship.
Ding ding ding! Trump went further right and got more support. DNC should go further left. People want radical change in 2024
checks calendar
Bipartisanship is dead.
No one wants to work with people that they view as inherently evil, corrupt, and a threat to democracy.
The way political cooperation, negotiation and compromise are viewed as acts of unforgivable weakness in the US sets up a climate where functional democracy appears impossible. The US seems destined to lurch from one impulse to another with half the country thinking each is a colossal mistake and an affront to their way of life.
No, I do not mean this as any kind of “both sides” argument. The fact there are only sides to determining how a society governs itself, the winners and the losers, is the point.
We have a two party system which is inherently hyper polarizing as it paints everything as being black and white. It is an unbelievably stupid and undemocratic system, and unfortunately, nothing will ever improve until we replace our broken two party system with a modern multiparty democracy
The best way to do that is with some sort of ranked preference voting system. The sooner first past the post is replaced with a ranked choice system, the better.
and unfortunately, nothing will ever improve until we replace our broken two party system with a modern multiparty democracy
… and you’ll still have plenty of opportunities to fuck that up
Honestly when was the last time we even had it. Clinton’s first term?
Well at least when it wasn’t just dems caving to republicans
Kamalas campaign thought they could win without offending any megadonors, despite seeing what a bit of honesty did for them right after biden was replaced.
Ive never seen such obvious virtue signaling, I’m not sure kamala even believed her own words.
I can wait for the book about how Kamala and Walz felt about the Democrat machine and the turn they did to Republicans weeks after the strong start they had.
It was the stupidest of ideas. Republicans were never going to vote for her in any numbers. She was all about gun control, she personally owned the 12 million border crossings, she had all those defund the police sound bites from her earlier years, and she couldn’t effectively separate herself from the difficult economy for middle and low earners - while failing to communicate that she even cared about the common man’s plight or would try to help it. Even her proposed tax plan raised taxes on lower middle class, at least the charts I saw (including here on Lemmy). And Republicans have seen four years of Trump and think all the Nazi and “all Republicans are racist” talk is literally the stupidest thing on the earth. Abortion was all Dems really had, and although lots of Republicans are pro-choice, Trump had promised to veto a national abortion ban (for whatever that’s worth).
I remember when Democrats were for the working people. They need to stop being "We’re not the Nazis"and start telling us who they are. But I don’t think they want to tell us who they are. They’re no longer the party of the working man, they’re the party of corporate interest and global governance, and they’re also almost as authoritarian as the right. Maybe the collapse of the Democrat party will result in the birth of an actual socialist party in the US. We’ve seen major party changes in the past. Will it happen again, soon?
“I remember when Democrats were for the working people?”
What was the Great Depression like?
Lmao, for real though, FDR was the last President that prioritized the working class over the capital class. And in turn capitalists tried to overthrow the government or have him killed: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
FDR was the last President that prioritized the working class over the capital class
And he only did all that to head off a socialist revolution.
It was the stupidest of ideas. Republicans were never going to vote for her in any numbers
It is what the donor (capital) class wanted. Liberals are capitalists which means they serve the capital class first and foremost.
yeah this was a really fucking stupid idea and I think any Dingus on Twitter could have told you the same. The Trump voter base does not move. everyone’s been saying this. I don’t understand the Democrat strategy at all
I don’t know what the actual numbers are on this, but I have to imagine the number of progressive voters who want more progressive policies far exceeds the number of Republicans that will vote Democrat. if anyone has a source to this data, I am interested in it.
I don’t understand the Democrat strategy at all
Someone else summed it up better than I can. The democratic party is doing exactly what it set out to do.
They have no interest in furthering progressive policies so they don’t. That’s why the DNC chair is calling Bernie Sander’s critique of the party’s platform bullshit right now, instead of admitting he’s right.
The system is as it does.
I mean, realistically, they’d adopt leftist talking points and then abandon them after they won, like they did in 2008.
And in 2020. I think I can count on one hand the policies he ran on getting put into place, and I lost track of how many some Boogeyman kept it from happening.
But we always gave more weapons to Israel without question or congressional approval.
Yes, and to be fair, i think his failure wasn’t due to a lack of desire. Biden is an institutionalist, past the point of logic and reason. My understanding is that they can procedurally remove the filibuster without a super majority at the beginning of each session, but he failed to consider eliminating it until late in his presidency. He also still refuses to entertain expanding the court; I know he couldn’t do it, but if they had any sense at all, they’d be running on it. He has to much, “respect,” for these institutions to do anything to change them, even as they crumble in the face of fascism.
without question or congressional approval
Do you think Congress wouldn’t have approved it? The Democrats are mostly in AIPAC’s pockets, and the Republican would send them even more arms if they could, since they are openly, vocally pro-genocide.
At the least, we could have had a shot at getting congress to stop sending arms. We did to Saudi Arabia based on what they were doing to Yemen, thanks to Bernie Sanders.
Would they have? 90%, both parties are in the pocket of AIPAC. But to at least try to do something is better than sitting on our hands and going "welp, brown people are gonna die anyways, next dude will do it more.*
i think some of this is true, but I don’t think that they would be implementing all of the same policies. maybe all the things that they actually care about are common between the two, and that’s what he means.
That’s why the DNC chair is calling Bernie Sander’s critique of the party’s platform bullshit right now
Holy crap. I read your link–the hubris of these DNC chairperson idiots to call names after losing so thoroughly. Its like they havent gotten the election results yet.
Democrats called those Twitter users Russian trolls. They are now advocating to restrict social media so this cannot happen again.
They are now advocating to restrict social media so this cannot happen again.
source?
Saw a brazen example yesterday about how social media is the fault of it all. It was an article like this one https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/11/07/10-democratic-thinkers-on-what-the-party-needs-right-now-00187993
What we’ve seen is that tens of millions have opted into a right-wing information bubble, largely online, that has grown to eclipse almost the entire traditional media infrastructure. Often, in that bubble, they’ve become the willing consumers of lies and outrage. Trump’s real misdeeds are whitewashed while audiences are encouraged to embrace cathartic rage against rotating groups of enemies — many of which seem to suspiciously mirror historically unpopular minorities. In this fractured information environment, clownish strongmen thrive, their meme-like public personas enrapturing otherwise disengaged voters — a trend we’ve seen across the globe, as social media increasingly displaces traditional media.
Democrats need to recognize that it is impossible to win votes by improving voters’ lives, when your opponent has a national rage machine it can toggle on or off at will. We will see the next iteration of this game soon enough, when the right switches to praising the precise economy they blasted for years, likely spiking economic satisfaction through the roof. This capacity — dominating media and social media, and its power to shape public opinion — has been the obsessive focus of the right for years. Democrats have almost completely ignored these questions in favor of wonky policy and kitchen-table economics. If the party continues to ignore this problem, it courts oblivion. Democrats must find a way to make headway in modern media, and wrest more control of the national information environment from Trump and his band of thugs.
My favorite line
Let’s start with where Democrats should NOT go. We should not blame Vice President Kamala Harris or her campaign.
Why didn’t you quote the part where they are discussing restricting it?
Why don’t you, if it’s so important to you? Be the change.
It’s important to me that when someone makes a big claim they back it up. The challenge is that the article doesn’t say what was claimed.
I didn’t make the claim therefore nothing for me to back up.
Too much effort to go look for it. Keep an eye out and you will frequently come across an article where they discuss the need for “more control over social media because of foreign interference”.
“I’m not lying, I’m lazy”
Dope
You don’t remember the TikTok fiasco from a few months ago? It is basically the same thing but for Twitter.
Any social-media platform that serves as a propaganda outlet for a hostile foreign power should be shut down, and its entire C-suite imprisoned for a long stretch.
If you are consistently seeing the same messages on X as on RT, that’s a problem similar to that of broadcasters of hostile propaganda in wartime. You say First Amendment; I say Lord Haw Haw. They’re giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
And normal media does not? The propaganda storm from newspapers in favor of Israel is beyond obvious. It is easy to explain why boomers love Israel and zoomers do not. One of them watches CNN or Fox.
Well the actual numbers in the article above are misleading, as they talk in percentages of self-identified/registered voters. And what we have seen in this election is that there has been a big move of people who used to be ® to moderates (according to NBC on their election coverage). So it’s not making sense to compare percentage numbers.
So left wing Democrats responded by sitting on their hands instead of voting, knowingly allowing the country to slide into whatever authoritarian hellhole that awaits us? Now that’s the definition of pettiness.
We kept trying to warn you.
And every time - every last fucking time - anyone told you that moving to the right was going to cause people to stay home, you lot shot the messenger. Every time someone screamed the writing on the wall out loud, centrists who were so happy that the party was finally embracing genocide and Cheney were like “Russian! Tankie! Trumpist!”
I voted for Harris. You’ll blame me anyway. Democrats will always shoot the messenger and double down on their simping for fascists.
The liberal tries to become an arbitrator, but he is incapable of solving the problems.
“I do not think that liberals understand the difference between influence and power, and the liberals get confused seeking influence rather than power. The conservatives on the right wing, or the fascists, understand power, though, and they move to consolidate power while the liberal pushes for influence.”
Thanks for sharing that link. It unfortunately still shows to be true even today. :(
I said basically the same the article says a couple of days ago and was pelted with a gazillion negative votes. Centrists are averse to learning from mistakes, otherwise they wouldn’t be centrists.
Every time someone screamed the writing on the wall out loud, centrists who were so happy that the party was finally embracing genocide and Cheney were like “Russian! Tankie! Trumpist!”
Edit: the downvotes prove my point hah
Of course, they also said that you would be gone as soon as the election was over, since they couldn’t accept that anyone who deviated from their pro-genocide orthodoxy could be an actual person and not a Russian bot.
There will be no apologies from any of them for their disgusting near-constant libel that only stopped once there was a rule against calling people Russian bots. They just switched to calling anyone who saw what was going to happen a Trump supporter instead.
They’re too busy trying to figure out how to justify how this loss means they need to move to the right.
I’m not nearly as much of a downvote magnet as either of you, and I still have some dude following me around claiming I’m a Stein shill despite every mention of her in my history being to shit on her. They’ve just got the one move.
DARVO is a move both parties make to deflect blame.
Yep. Sorry you got shit on for being right. I don’t think I’ve ever downvoted you.
I’m used to it by now. You should have seen me on Twitter during the 2016/2020 campaigns. It was rough!
It’s nice people like us can be mocked and not shift right.
Unlike those people who claim “I had to vote trump because the left left me, I didn’t leave them.”
Or Harris.
Hear fucking hear 👏🏻 💯
Yes, my friend was one of them. I was shocked when 2 weeks before election he told me he was planning on not voting.
I asked why and he cited holding the same position Isreal as Biden, and courting republicans like Cheney, saying that was not a good look for the party at all.
I told him it’s not ideal, but we need to vote to keep Trump out…. Sometimes we just have to be pragmatic.
He responded saying it’s the Dem establishment that keeps allowing a boogey man like Trump to rise so they can shove center right corporatists down our throats. He said he was abstaining from voting to send a message to the DNC, and followed it up with, “we survived a first Trump term, I’m sure we can survive a second.”
we survived a first Trump term
As long as you weren’t one of the million Americans who died of COVID thanks to his misadministration.
Or the Capitol police who died as a result from his attempted insurrection.
I mean, he’s an ex-pat who was living in Hong Kong, S Korea, and Vietnam for most of Trumps first term… so I’m sure he didn’t feel it as hard as most of us who were here for it.
“Thousands of my countrymen will perish, but that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.”
It’s a mistake reasoning as if you’re taking of one guy. Maybe one third of your population voted, and most of those voted for Trump, it means that most of you guys are pretty ok with dying during the next COVID or whatever
I asked why and he cited holding the same position Isreal as Biden, and courting republicans like Cheney, saying that was not a good look for the party at all.
I told him it’s not ideal
And this is what you don’t get. There’s a huge fucking gap between “not ideal” and “supporting genocide to the point that Dick Cheney likes you.” And you didn’t acknowledge it. You just belittled it with “not ideal.” Because you couldn’t admit that what Democrats were doing was monstrous and unconscionable.
Anyone who pulls this “you didn’t get 100% of everything you want, but…” shit? They got 100% of everything they wanted. Especially the genocide support. And especially Cheney.
So the thought is that Trump will stop the genocide.
The thought is that running to the right failed. The thought is that Harris should have listened to criticism.
We tried to warn you what would happen, and every last time, we got this insipid unthinking “you say something me not want hear! Me accuse you of being trumper! Me very smart!” shit. You have learned absolutely nothing from 2016 and 2024.
In 2028, if there is an election, let’s hope some of you have learned that treating your base with contempt while simping for Republicans doesn’t work.
They won’t. They’ll be open fascists in hope that motivates people on trump’s 3rd term.
Dems have always hated progressives more than the right. And you’re saying “you” a bunch, and I guess you mean neoliberal Democrats or some other people who aren’t me… but anyway.
I’m asking about the strategy of, on election day: “One side is/is moving towards the right, and I don’t like that. To combat that, I’ll allow the most extreme right people into power, with a solid chance of destroying whatever is left of USA’s democracy, while stripping it for parts.”
In a binary system, how does choosing the worse side help you? Did you not learn from Trumps last victory, that sitting on the sideline while fascists take away more and more rights while cementing their power and destroying institutions, doesn’t work?
You just got a great indicator of where the “Let’s do anything we want and as long as we’re second worst, everyone who isn’t a monster has to vote for us!” mindset leads.
But blaming the voters is easier than introspection and adaptation. So lecture away and learn nothing.
I was simply asking the thought process on voting day while agreeing with the majority of your complaints. But you aren’t interested in discussing anything, you just want to throw a fit and feel smug. Carry on then, I’m sure that’s working out for you.
He responded saying it’s the Dem establishment that keeps allowing a boogey man like Trump to rise so they can shove center right corporatists down our throats. He said he was abstaining from voting to send a message to the DNC, and followed it up with, “we survived a first Trump term, I’m sure we can survive a second.”
I remember when I was 14.
Certainly hope we can
Yeah, I am definitely in the camp that Trump part 2 will be worse…. but we don’t know for sure yet
Keep in mind Trump is pushing 80 and has a steady diet of McDonalds and Diet Coke. Here’s to hoping nature takes its course.
Do you think Vance is going to be better?
Better isn’t the word I would use. I don’t think Vance could be the cult leader Trump is. I think when Trump dies it will at least take some time to build up another cult leader.
I honestly don’t know. He’s not as viscerally mean as Trump, but he’s also a lot smarter. I think some part of him is a fancy boy who wants to be liked and to win by being clever and insightful rather than just brutal. He used to write about his nice life in San Francisco doing community gardening. If he could get the upper-crust to like him (not just use him) that seems like something he’d enjoy.
But then again, he sold out to the guy he thought was Hitler, so he might just be completely without shame or conscience.
“we survived”
Many didn’t and even more won’t this time, your friend is a genocide supporter
So not voting for genocidal candidates now make genocide support? stop projecting.
The Dems were hellbent on supporting gneocide. People chose to be fine with it, even attacking people who called it out.
The flak we got here for saying for months the Dems need to stop the genocide support to win the election now raises the question whether they were just tactically wrong, or whether they werent really into the genocide themselves. That would explain why now there is efforts to project it on the other people.
At every turn we were told that supporting genocide is better than supporting genocide and homophobia. Saying we should push for a non genocidal candidate, for which there was plenty of time at first, got immediately shut down.
The most consistent position of the Biden/Harris fans was to accept genocide, because that was the strongest criticism raised consistently against them. Now you end up not only having lost the election but having lost the election because you were in support of genocide.
It is no wonder that Trump managed to win, when the center is so morally bankrupt. It is no wonder that there was no way to inspire people to vote for Harris and Biden if the messaging constantly was “yeah we are morally bankrupt and we are also genociders and racists, but we are less than the other side. This is as good as we allow to happen”.
This is on the Democrat elites and their supporters. Own up to it instead of projecting the blame.
Democrats: Support Israel, say they want the conflict to stop and a two States solution. Want to send weapons to Ukraine. Support minorities in the US.
Republicans: Support the genocide of Palestinians, of Ukrainians and of minorities inside the USA.
Voting for Republicans and not voting (so leaving the door open to them) is supporting genocide.
So every Israel aka genocide supporter had a safe vote with Trump. Everyone who opposes it had no choice with either party.
Funny thing is your friends opinions are popular on lemmy.ml which makes it seem like foreign actors are pushing these talking points. They definitely worked in Trumps favor.
Now the blue MAGA is talking about the election being stolen…
Seriosuly how did you expect to win against Trump by copying Trump? People always chose the original authoritarian nazi asshole over the knock-off copy.
You know what wouldnt have worked in Trumps favor? Stopping the genocide in Gaza. That would have led to a landslide victory for the Dems.
That would have led to a landslide victory for the Dems.
Honestly, probably not really. It’d have likely led to a closer election by winning them Michigan, but the Democrats had a more fundamental problem than very unpopular foreign policy.
Now the blue MAGA is talking about the election being stolen…
What is this supposed to mean? Who is the blue maga?
Who is suggesting copying Trump?
The polls show voters were motivated by inflation. As much as I’d like the people of Palestine to not be safe and thrive, I literally don’t know anyone irl that considered that when voting. But the way it is pushed on lemmy you’d think it is Iran voting for Americas next president.
Keeps allowing Trump to rise? What does he expect the Dems to do?
I don’t agree with him, but I think he’s expecting them to support liberal progressive policies. Seems to be taking the stance of “if we can’t improve things it’s better to watch it all burn rather than slowly rot”.
Tell him that not voting to convince them to run liberal progressive policies won’t work. You can’t play Mexican standoff because the Dems have an out: the center voters.
The article says otherwise.
So no one is ever allowed to think otherwise. Gotcha.
*The better answer is that she needed to win over center. That is different than Republicans.
What exactly do you think should have been done differently for Harris to activate this “just win with centrists” option? Because it very much seems like that was just tried and failed miserably.
I’m not OP so I don’t actually know him so I can’t tell him anything, although I do know one person like that. As for your point I’m not sure that actually follows since those center voters didn’t show up to save Harris this time. If the DNC keeps losing elections at some point, assuming we’re all still here and we even still have elections, they will have to try something different. It’s a very risky play but I also can’t say it won’t work.
Harris relied on the left showing up for their rights and for democracy. That was a ton of her campaign. And the left didn’t show up. If they don’t show up for that, they won’t show up for anything. They will try something different and that’s going all in on the center voter, who actually show up.
I replied to your other comment where you said basically the same thing, but the short version is there clearly isn’t enough center voters for that to be a winning strategy. If they try that next election (If there even is a next election) it’s going to be an even more lopsided victory for the Republicans.
You’re right. I don’t buy this narrative that the dems lost because they were left enough. The polls show voters were motivated by inflation and thought Biden’s progressive policies were to blame.
They tried that this time. They basically told the left to fuck off and die. Moving to the right has very publicly failed.
They literally told the left to come out for abortion rights and to save democracy. If the left doesn’t come out for that then 1) they will literally never show up, or 2) they don’t exist. Take your pick. Either the dems will never rely on the left showing up ever again. Kiss any left policy goodbye. They will go hard to the center. Clinton was right “it’s the economy stupid”.
They had you at Dick Cheney.
They could have appointed an AG that wasn’t useless on purpose, for starters.
Well Biden for example could’ve done a much better job actually
persecutingprosecuting him for his crimes. He can do that as the head of the Executive branch.Prosecute is probably the word you’re looking for, but I wouldn’t mind a bit of persecution being mixed in. Better than just letting him walk.
Lmao good catch.
Sorry dude, the problem is well beyond “leftists” and sooner or later you’ll need to confront that.
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Don’t be sorry, everything you said is correct.
Blue state examples are often particularly confusing for the politically uninvolved, as Eric Adams is pretty close to a Republican. Once a state gets blue enough, anyone with ambition will just say they’re Democrats and then do center-right stuff. Often the state parties are not ideological enough to deny the brand when it’s just easier to make a bigger and bigger tent of insiders.
Honestly unfortunately mostly unrealistic: a systemic chage towards deliberative democracy (not just USAs broken electoral democracy) would be the best according to most political science. It’s (way to) slowly happening in some European states (so the right shift may reverse that trend again). This indirection vie simple voting tends to lean towards populism and manipulation. Which got unfortunately incredibly obvious in the presidential election…
I’m not one of them, I voted a month or so in advance by mail.
But I wonder if some people are tired of the lack of change with Democrats in charge and believe that things need to get worse before they can get better.
As “hardcore-left” as I am, I just cannot fathom, being so dumb to not vote “to show the dems”. The policies of bad Republican presidents hurt us till today. Think about Reagan vastly accelerating the gap between rich and poor, or Nixon with his failed war drugs.
Agree. The “lesson-teaching” mindset has got to end.
They do, and they are fucking stupid for it.
Pretty much, although it’s probably an exaggeration to call them Democrats. In reality most of them are likely unaffiliated with any party. But it was literally Harris’s job to convince them to come out and vote for her and she failed at it. When a candidate loses an election, barring election interference, it’s their fault. Harris fucked us all by running as a diet Republican. Odds are anyone in here reading this did everything we could to hand her the win, but she pissed it all away by trying to steal votes from the Republicans instead of convincing people that they needed to get off their asses and come vote for her.
Dude, she had like 100 days to put together a campaign. She had to make a gamble and trust that the 2020 Dem voters were already in her corner so she could go after some big fish with the little time she had.
Dude, lets be real. The only reason the DNC pushed Biden out of the way was because polling numbers said the incumbent advantage (and his policies) weren’t going to be enough to win it for him. So Kamala comes out of the gate with a boost (because she’s not Joe) and promptly proclaims she can’t name a single policy decision she would have made differently than Biden. That’s not winning undecided voters from either side.
and promptly proclaims she can’t name a single policy decision she would have made differently than Biden.
Literally not true. Were you just not paying attention?
Shortly after becoming candidate, she was asked in an interview if she could think of anything she would have done different than Biden. She replied:
“There is not a thing that comes to mind… and I’ve been a part of most of the decisions that have had impact, the work that we have done,”
I voted for Harris but I think that was a monumental fuckup.
True, and she never said anything else after that…
Ok… But that’s not what we are talking about is it? You said the statement ‘and promptly proclaims she can’t name a single policy decision she would have made differently than Biden.’ was “Literally not true”. But it literally is.
I don’t have the time nor the want to unpack the rest of this clusterfuck campaign.
Literally not true. Were you just not paying attention?
Now you’re flat out lying and being insulting about it. Blocked.
She got handed a losing Biden campaign that was on fire, and thought the smart move was to double down on his policies that were already losing him the election, and then to throw in some Republican talking points. It was very obviously a losing strategy no matter how little time she had. The Democrats have been relying on “not Republicans” to carry them to victory for so long they seem to have forgotten why people vote for them over the Republicans.
Everything is "very obvious ” with 20/20 hindsight.
This stuff was all talked about prior to the election.
Everything is “hindsight” if you scream that the people saying it are Russian bots so you can ignore it until it’s too late.
left leaning republicans arent “big fish”. They are bottom of the barrel dregs, and going after them has been tried repeatedly and it never works. And she knew she was losing the left the whole time she pivoted to the right. She can read the polls same as we can.
For many, actively supporting Israeli genocide is something they simply can’t support.
If there’s anything that this election has proven, it’s that there are A LOT of one issue voters in this country, across the board. They’ll ignore everything else for the one issue they care about above all else. And when you only have two viable parties, that forced a black and white decision.
The fundamental solution is eradicating First Past the Post and getting ranked choice voting so we have a multitude of parties that are all more nuanced instead.
But that won’t happen unless we abandon both of the major parties we have now, and they can’t let that happen because that means they lose power.
What is Trump’s stated opinion on Israel and its war in Gaza? What is Trump’s stated opinion -and first term actions- on Muslims? Seriously, the Biden & Harris = “genocide” horseshit was 100% designed to disenfranchise Democrats. Congress votes on foreign aid. Congress is largely Republican. Protesters NEVER went after Republicans.
Oh 100%. But if there’s anything this election proved, it’s that the average American is fucking stupid, gullible as shit, and unable to determine propaganda from reality.
Yeah, and the problem is people just kind of stop at “they’re dumb” like that’s just the end of it. “They’re dumb and our opponents are unscrupulous so we’ll never win until dumbness is eradicated”. It’s an influence campaign. Figure out a way to make the dumb people want to vote for you! The dumb people exist, some of them vote, and others could probably be encouraged to vote who don’t.
No ad agency would stay in business by saying “sorry, we didn’t get you any extra sales, but it’s not our fault because the consumers are dumb, and also you should hire us to do it all over again next time because our failure was the absolute best that could have been done under the circumstances”.
So why are the democrats currently taking part in genociding Palestinians? Thats horseshit too?
Is anything stopping them from being vocally opposed to the situation?
Both candidates messaging was they would “get the war over with” but I guess it sounds better coming from Kamala than Trump?
So now they get genocide and child rape. NICE
They all campaigned for Harris and mostly held their criticism to themselves. Harris is the one who decided to go campaign with Liz Cheney and Mark Cuban.
“That’ll show ‘em!”
This election was lost in every measurable way. She did not lose because of leftists who didn’t vote on principal. She lost because the working class overwhelmingly chose not to vote for her. Many of them voted for Trump instead. Many first-time voters voted for Trump. She thoroughly lost to him in every possible way.
I seriously doubt left wingers were the difference in this election. I doubt there are significant enough numbers of far left people in Georgia, North Carolina, Michigan, and Wisconsin for it to have made any real difference.
I seriously doubt left wingers were the difference in this election
You’d be seriously wrong then. Even as of 2021 progressives were 8% of all voters. It will be even higher now.
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/11/09/progressive-left/
Thats 15-20% of the democratic party. The dems cant win any election without them, and have no hope of replacing them with republicans or independents-- regardless of how much funding AIPAC tries to bribe you with.
That article says that progressives almost unanimously voted for Biden in 2020. I guess you’re saying Biden won in 2020 because progressives showed up and voted for him, and I suppose that means Harris lost because progressives didn’t show up and vote for her in 2024? So, the question then is: why? Why did progressives show up for Biden but not for Harris?
Seriously? My friend, we’ve been shouting for two months why peogressives weren’t going to show up this election. This post isnfull of the reasons.
You’ll need someone else to do the deep dive but:
- genocidal support by harris/biden.
- hard shift to the right on policy. Fucking cheney’s…
- no working class policy positions that would actually be impactful. (Keeping khan, commiting to not breaking strikes, maybe some reforms of pto/sick leave/etc.)
Im not looking for any response to this. Its purely informational.
No, I get all that, I’m just asking why progressives did vote for Biden but didn’t vote for Harris. Because all of this stuff applies just as much to Biden as it does to Harris, so why sit out the 2024 election but not the 2020 election? Was it the pandemic?
Pandemic was def part of it. People were actively dying as a result of trumps behavior.
Biden also tacked left a bit due to the fact warren/bernie had most of the votes in their camp during the primary.
It was a big part of his initial ‘single term’ promise. Which was due to pressure from the left wing that fine if we vote for you you’re a single term pres.
He could have managed a 2nd term if he didnt genocide, didnt break the rail strikes, and maintained more mental agility than a potato. Unfortunately he was adamant on both those things. Then harris walked in and was all ‘everything we did was beautiful! Vote harris!’
There was a collective sigh by people like me and most just checked out again and continued our local collective action support for each other. (This is why not having a primary is a huge downside for dems, removes the ability for us to build enthusiasm)
Some of us, the masochists, decided to try and raise the warning flags for Harris and friends that she was about to get fucked.
If the dnc eventually learns and gets a firebrand left wing to run that can strike the whistle just right not to scare most of the centrists you’ll see those voters very quickly return. But thats predicted on dnc learning, which is unlikely alot of us right now who can are putting in the time to get rcv or its like passed so we can build a viable 3rd party.
I see, that’s interesting. I really didn’t think progressives were a big part of either election outcome. And I should clarify, I am a leftist. I’ve been a member of a couple different socialist organizations, both DSA and the Socialist Party USA. I voted for Bernie in the 2016 and 2020 primaries. I just didn’t think there were enough of us in critical swing states to be the determining factor in any election. I suppose maybe I was wrong.
I get that you didn’t want to vote for Harris because she’s a milquetoast liberal technocrat, capitalist imperialist who supports genocide, but so was Biden. That’s Democrats, that’s who they are. I’m sorry, but if you really thought Biden was going to move meaningfully left or commit to just being a one term president, you were kidding yourself. I mean, why wouldn’t the Democrats think progressives were going to show up and vote for them in 2024, when the progressives showed up for them in 2020? I guess they know better now, but if you think the Democrats are going to learn from this election and decide to try to appeal more to progressives, again, you’re kidding yourself. In fact, the opposite is likely to happen, the Democrats will probably move further to the right. The Democratic party is not a socialist or even a social democratic party, and they never will be. Not in my lifetime, anyway.
Looks like you agree with the announcement 🤦
running a far right war and risking losing the election and ending the republic all so you can take some far right wing bribes is a lot more petty.
Harris relied on the left showing up for their rights and for democracy. But they will literally never show up. This is why the Dems will never, ever rely on the left showing up ever again. Dems will go hard center next election.
I don’t think there’s enough center left for them to go any harder center without going further left. They were already running on a bunch of right wing Republican policies. They’ve only got three options. Go harder right and actually become diet Republicans (all the oligarchy, but only half the fascism!). Stay exactly where they are. Or go left and return to being mildly progressive. They’ve shown that where they are currently is a losing proposition, so realistically their option is to try to appeal to the middle of the Republican base, or walk back some of their right shift of the last few decades. I don’t think they’re going to be able to successfully out Republican the Republicans so they’ve really only got one viable play.
I don’t know how else to say it: Harris relied on the left with abortion rights and saving democracy, and the left didn’t show up. The center cares about inflation and housing, which Harris did not address enough. They will go to that center, Bill Clinton’s “It’s the economy, stupid”. There will be no real progress, just economy for the center.
Left isn’t just social policies, it’s economic policies as well. She should have been talking about inflation and housing this election in addition to things like abortion. Instead she decided to focus on border control and foreign policy, two Republican talking points, and even worse she decided to go right on both of them.
We live in different worlds because I think her focus was on abortion and saving democracy. Border is both center and right imo, you’d be amazed.
Foreign policy is an example of how no one cares about Gaza or Ukraine (or NATO), which are what the left cares about. The left didn’t show up. Yes the Gaza situation is fucked, but the difference between Harris and Trump are stark and vast.
but the difference between Harris and Trump are stark and vast.
And you think making that difference narrower would have improved Harris’ chances?
That was about Gaza, holy bad faith. Hey I recognize you.
The difference is in who they will fuck over so we can stay greedy and entitled. Democrats fuck over poor people, republicans fuck over minorities and immigrants. Both groups fuck over the rest of the world.
The left would vote for the “won’t fuck anyone over” party if there was one.
Oh yeah “we will give you abortion rights” is really fucking people over.
Well let’s hope so so they can collapse and a real leftist (or even just sane) party can rise from the ashes.
If a “real leftist” party arises from the ashes, guess what will happen? They will lose in the election. That’s the whole point of what I’m saying: left policies do not win elections. We literally just saw this. Harris said to the left “come out for your body rights. come out for your democracy.” If the left can’t come out for that they 1) will literally never ever come out, or 2) they don’t exist.
What wins elections is “it’s the economy stupid”.
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They did, but it isn’t great knowing how much better they are than you? We can at least take comfort in their “moral high ground” even though they let a guy who explicitly stated he wanted to be a dictator become president.
It’s not like they could’ve made their voices heard after she became President, you know?
