Not only in the US, it is a universal fiction

Unruffled [he/him]@lemmy.dbzer0.com · 2 days ago

Not only in the US, it is a universal fiction

Blindsite · 3 hours ago

So what? You don’t like the voluntary exchange of goods and services? Trade = capitalism. Furthermore you’d rather trust the government than the average individual? Yeah I get the desire for socialized medical care and welfare. Whatever. But even countries with socialized public services have private sectors. So let’s get more fundamental.

Capital = having money. Capitalism = engaging in trade, that is exchanging one asset or services for another for mutual benefit. Fascism != Capitalism. Government != Fascism Fascism = government + capitalism. More specifically there are certain hallmarks of fascism that sadly are showing up in western society. But capitalism alone does not equate to that. You don’t get an authoritarian regime by engaging in trade. You need to pass laws in order to get that. You wouldn’t even have corporations without government support.

So again I’m hesitant to throw in with the pro government movement when half of this whole fascism/corporate problem is government. I mean I’m against the whole monopoly on violence to begin with but saying voluntary interaction is bad but violence is good seems rather counterintuitive to me. You don’t need government to decentralize things or return the means of production to the people or whatever but still such things should be voluntary. That’s why open source is so revolutionary. It’s essentially a gift economy and doesn’t use transactions or violence. People give their time and labor away and everyone benefits. Code ensures transparency and decentralized distribution. Furthermore without patents and copyright from the private sector we wouldn’t have copy left and open source software. Just some food for thought there.

Kwakigra@beehaw.org · 2 hours ago

Capitalism is not defined by free trade. Capitalism is defined by the ownership of the means of production. Capitalism is a system in which Capitalists, or investors, own the means of production while they purchase labor from workers to operate the means of production on their behalf. Socialism is a system in which the workers themselves own the means of production. Free trade may exist in either system.

Blindsite · 1 hour ago

Uh no. Where are you getting these definitions?

The workers are private individuals, they own property privately. So even if they are part of a cooperative and each own a share of the company and all vote on its direction for example that’s still capitalism. The means of production is still privately owned.

Socialism is defined as a society with social ownership. You can do this a couple different ways. You can use the GPL model and licence something free for everyone. You can do what Canada has done with its water and other crown assets and declare they belong to everyone (which is why Nestle is trying to exploit it and American Nestle food products are going to go up in price thanks to terrifs). You can tax everyone and redistribute the assets in services and public works (but this requires a monopoly on violence). Or your culture can simply declare some or many things just can’t be owned. But the more collective ownership you have the more risk you run of dictatorship. No communist country has managed to pull off its classless ideal. In fact the closest examples I can think of are the First Nations with their various models of living in harmony with nature and not taking ownership of it in the first place. How can you own land if you constantly move around, let alone owning land in absentia. In fact I think Equador outlawed owning land in absentia outright so the concept isn’t that radical. But my point is social ownership isn’t just grabbing the means of production. A worker IS a capitalist. A business owner is a capitalist. A self employed independent contractor is a capitalist. Capitalism is not limited to big corporations and fat cats earning million dollar paycheques. Socializing ownership doesn’t negate that.

When does one stop being a “worker” and start being a “capitalist”? When they start their own business? When they make more than $15/hr? When they hire their first employee? When they bring in more than poverty wages? When they earn $10k a month? 50k? 500k? 1M? When does an individual trading goods and services become a “capitalist”? When do these “capitalists” seize the means of production if not through trade? And how would you propose to decentralize said means of production without violence save by through trade and innovation once more?

In short how would you propose to achieve decentralized ownership without the use of a monopoly on violence?

Kwakigra@beehaw.org · 1 hour ago

This is not a difference of opinion, it’s a difference of the commonly understood meaning of words.

Very straightforwardly from the Encyclopedia Britannica website:

Capitalism is a widely adopted economic system in which there is private ownership of the means of production. Modern capitalist systems usually include a market-oriented economy, in which the production and pricing of goods, as well as the income of individuals, are dictated to a greater extent by market forces resulting from interactions between private businesses and individuals than by central planning undertaken by a government or local institution. Capitalism is built on the concepts of private property, profit motive, and market competition.

As for Socialism:

System of social organization in which private property and the distribution of income are subject to social control; also, the political movements aimed at putting that system into practice. Because “social control” may be interpreted in widely diverging ways, socialism ranges from statist to libertarian, from Marxist to liberal.