• oce 🐆@jlai.lu
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        7 months ago

        Including people who didn’t really decide on where to live, like their children?

          • oce 🐆@jlai.lu
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            7 months ago

            I think wanting to avoid innocent civilian deaths is a moral line that is valid for both sides.

            • octopus_ink@lemmy.ml
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              7 months ago

              While I agree with that, it doesn’t feel like your question to the other commenter carries quite the weight in this specific context as it might in others given that neither side has been clean about this, and it’s not the Palestinian side that has intentionally blown up a playground within the past week.

              I do generally think it’s hard to equate the two fairly in this context, given the power differential between the two forces and their relative capabilities to be discerning if they so chose.

              • o_d [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
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                7 months ago

                I apologize if I misunderstood you, but there is no both sides here. The united nations recognizes the right to armed struggle against occupation.

                UNGA Resolution 37/43 (1982) reaffirmed the “inalienable right” of the Palestinian people “and all peoples under foreign and colonial domination” to self-determination. It also reaffirmed the legitimacy of “the struggle of peoples for […] liberation from colonial and foreign domination and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle.”

                https://www.cjpme.org/fs_236/

                It even mentions the Palestinian struggle explicitly.

        • idkmybffjoeysteel [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          7 months ago

          Adults who were born in Israel, yes, children, no, but your handwringing is funny, since dead Israeli toddlers are purely hypothetical, and you clearly give no fucks about dead Palestinian babies.

          Stick your hand in a blender and turn it on.

          • oce 🐆@jlai.lu
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            7 months ago

            you clearly give no fucks about dead Palestinian babies.

            I do. Mentioning civilian victims on Israeli an side doesn’t mean I don’t care about civilian victims on Palestinian side, this point was simply already covered largely.

            Also please refrain from personal attacks and other violence threats.

              • oce 🐆@jlai.lu
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                7 months ago

                No, I am not defending the war crimes of Israeli army nor the ones of Hamas. Just read what I wrote, there’s no more to imagine.

                • Infamousblt [any]@hexbear.net
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                  7 months ago

                  You’re pointing out the crimes of the victims rather than the oppressors. That’s defense of the oppressors no matter how many mental backflips you do to pretend it’s not

                  • thatirishguyyy
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                    7 months ago

                    And aren’t you pretending that some of the victims haven’t committed acts of terrorism?

                    I’ve never seen such mental gymnastics used to defend a group of terrorists. And if you think I’m comparing Hamas to the Palestinian people then you are just as much to blame as the guy you are arguing with.

            • o_d [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
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              7 months ago

              Killed by who?

              A separate report published in Haaretz noted that the Israeli military was “compelled to request an aerial strike” against its own facility inside the Erez Crossing to Gaza “in order to repulse the terrorists” who had seized control. That base was filled with Israeli Civil Administration officers and soldiers at the time.

              An Israeli woman named Yasmin Porat confirmed in an interview with Israel Radio that the military “undoubtedly” killed numerous Israeli noncombatants during gun battles with Hamas militants on October 7. “They eliminated everyone, including the hostages,” she stated, referring to Israeli special forces.

              While being held by the Hamas gunmen, Porat recalled, “They did not abuse us. We were treated very humanely… No one treated us violently.”

              She added, “The objective was to kidnap us to Gaza, not to murder us.”

              https://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/israels-military-shelled-burning-tanks-helicopters/

              I’m aware that some of the hostages that were taken were children. All accounts suggest that they were treated well, for hostages anyway. Its important to recognize that the Zionist regime keeps thousands upon thousands of Palestinian hostages, many of which are children. The Zionists could have negotiated an exchange, ensuring the safe return of all Israeli hostages. Instead, they decided to bomb the living shit out of Gaza, pretty much ensuring their demise.

              • thatirishguyyy
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                7 months ago

                Yasmin Porat also discusses how they were used as human shields by Hamas. And other survivors have talked about the rape and murder by both Hamas and civilians.

                If you trust Yasmin Porat’s words, then by that same logic, the other women telling us that Hamas is raping and murdering hostages are telling the truth and the UN is complicit in pretending otherwise.

                • o_d [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
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                  7 months ago

                  One cannot prove a negative. If you have evidence for your claims, then by all means feel free to provide it. Fwiw, the intercept has already done a fairly thorough debunking of the sexual violence claims made popular by the New York Times. The reporter had no credentials and the evidence provided turned out to be false.

                  https://archive.ph/dwzue

                  • thatirishguyyy
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                    7 months ago

                    If you think Hamas is the only group that doesn’t commit rape and sexual assault during war then you are either delusional or purposely ignoring reality. I’m not sure which is more sad.

                    But here is a press release from the UN from just last month: https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm

                    A few dozen top news stories, none of them NYT, about Hamas most likely committing sexual assaults and rape… vs your one Intercept article.

                    Also, keep in mind, rape survivors may not discuss sexual assault for years due to trauma.

            • D61 [any]@hexbear.net
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              7 months ago

              Why would an Israeli family be living in the West Bank or Gaza? And who would be more likely to be killing their children, Israeli occupation forces or Palestinian resistance to the occupation forces?

                • BeamBrain [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  7 months ago

                  Between the starvation, contaminated water, lack of medical care, and indiscriminate IDF bombings, a large portion of Palestinians are going to become martyrs whether they want to or not. I don’t blame Hamas for helping the children feel better about the reality of their situation.

    • D61 [any]@hexbear.net
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      7 months ago

      If a civilian comes at you with a weapon, trying to kill you, are they still a civilian?

      If a civilian stands in front of relief trucks, sending food/medicine/clothes/tents while the military destroys food/medicine/homes, are they still a civilian?

      If a civilian cheers every time one of their country’s soldiers shoots a random person or when a bomb in dropped on a hospital, or when missiles are fired at the places went to get away from the fighting, are they still a civilian?

      'Cause, from where I’m sitting, being okay with slaughtering people kinds makes it seem like they aren’t ‘innocent’ in this.

      • melpomenesclevage@lemm.ee
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        7 months ago

        and every kapostani is armed, or can be assumed to be. there are no civilians among them, and even their children sing about murder and pillaging. like it of not, I guess every living thing there has to die 🤷‍♀️

      • oce 🐆@jlai.lu
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        7 months ago

        I don’t think this applies to the general understanding of innocent civilians indeed.

    • Łumało [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
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      7 months ago

      If a German occupied my home during 1940, I’m telling you he wouldn’t be a civilian to me. He’d be a complacent thief. A low life settler.

    • Amerikan Pharaoh@lemmygrad.ml
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      7 months ago

      There are no civilians in Israel; every settler is a combatant by virtue (ha) of their theft.

      And before you start pearl-clutching and morally peacocking like I know you would if not for this addendum; no, I do not factor Israeli children into my calculus. It sucks for them that their parents decided to either become, or carry on the family tradition of being settler scum; but does Israel ever consider Palestinian children? No. They don’t. Israel calls Palestinian children Hamas when it suits them; ergo, I don’t consider Israeli children. At all.