Former Rep. Adam Kinzinger (R-Ill.) bashed former President Trump online and said Christians who support him ā€œdonā€™t understandā€ their religion.

ā€œIā€™m going to go out on a NOT limb here: this man is not a Christian,ā€ Kinzinger said on X, formerly known as Twitter, responding to Trumpā€™s Christmas post. ā€œIf you are a Christian who supports him you donā€™t understand your own religion.ā€

Kinzinger, one of Trumpā€™s fiercest critics in the GOP, said in his post that ā€œTrump is weak, meager, smelly, victim-ey, belly-achey, but he ainā€™t a Christian and heā€™s not ā€˜Godā€™s man.ā€™ā€

  • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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    10 months ago

    Jesus wasnā€™t socialist, he literally said to leave to Caesar that which is Caesarā€™s. He wanted to part of government, and instead pointed people to the government of heaven.

    His message was for individuals to choose to help the poor on their own, not to use the government to force everyone to help the poor. The message was always about the individual, not the group, and it wasnā€™t until the Acts that we start to talk about the ā€œchurchā€ and any kind of centralization. He said, ā€œfollow me,ā€ not ā€œorganize yourselves into communes.ā€

    So no, I absolutely do not think Jesus was a socialist, he was the polar opposite of Trump. He shared a message of tolerance, love, and personal improvement, whereas Trump shares a message of intolerance, hate, and blaming others for your problems.

    • btaf45@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      His message was for individuals to choose to help the poor on their own, not to use the government to force everyone to help the poor.

      Nope. He never once said ā€œdonā€™t rely on governmentā€. You made that part up. He said give Caesar his taxes, knowing that those taxes will go to pay for free food and entertainment for the public ā€œbread and circusesā€. The reason he didnā€™t talk more about government is because his country was under the equivalent of foreign military occupation and all the decisions were made in a distant capital of which he would have had zero influence. His message was for everyone to do everything they can to help the poor, and in particular for rich people to redistribute their wealth to the poor. And only if they did that would rich people be eligible for heaven. Jesus used Yahwehā€™s coercion in place of government coercion.

      • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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        10 months ago

        No, he said give Caesar his taxes because thatā€™s a moral and legal obligation. Hereā€™s the NIV translation, which makes it clear (Mark 12:15-18):

        ā€¦ Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not? Should we pay or shouldnā€™t we?ā€

        But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. ā€œWhy are you trying to trap me?ā€ he asked. ā€œBring me a denarius and let me look at it.ā€ They brought the coin, and he asked them, ā€œWhose image is this? And whose inscription?ā€

        ā€œCaesarā€™s,ā€ they replied.

        Then Jesus said to them, ā€œGive back to Caesar what is Caesarā€™s and to God what is Godā€™s.ā€

        Nowhere in that exchange did he mention what it would be used for, just that itā€™s Caesarā€™s and he deserves it back. Thatā€™s it, thatā€™s the only mention he made of the government, and he mentions the current leader, not the state itself (e.g. he couldā€™ve said ā€œRomeā€ instead of ā€œCaesarā€ if he wanted to make commentary about the government).

        And later in that same chapter, he talks about the offering of the widow:

        Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few cents.

        Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, ā€œTruly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everythingā€”all she had to live on.ā€

        He obviously cares far more about the gifts to God than the taxes paid to the government, so the whole point of the exchange was to highlight that gifts to God are more important than obligations to governments.

        You can also look at the rich man that came to Jesus asking what he lacked (the camel through the eye of the needle thing), and the advice was to give to the poor and follow Jesus, not to become a philanthropist and lift the poor out of poverty. The gift God cares most about is humility and meekness, so giving to the poor was never the point, the point was to eliminate worldly desires to serve God.

        Thatā€™s a constant theme throughout the New Testament, especially in the gospels. When Jesus healed people, he didnā€™t do it to ease their suffering, he did it to give them a chance to repent and serve God. Every time he did so, he admonished them to repent and sin no more. The focus is always on the next life and serving God, not on this life.

        And thatā€™s why Iā€™m disgusted with many modern Christians, they like to donate large amounts for recognition instead of quietly giving like Jesus did. Theyā€™re like those people in the temple giving large amounts, not the poor widow who gave the only pennies she had. Your gift to others should be live and compassion, trying to amass wealth to give more to the poor misses the point.

        • btaf45@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          and he mentions the current leader, not the state itself (e.g. he couldā€™ve said ā€œRomeā€ instead of ā€œCaesarā€ if he wanted to make commentary about the government).

          Nope. Julius Caesar was long dead by this time. Tiberius was the emperor when Jesus lived. After before him, Augustus.

          He obviously cares far more about the gifts to God than the taxes paid to the government

          These arenā€™t gifts because there is coercion involved that is far greater than government coercion. If you donā€™t redistribute your wealth to the poor, you are going to be tortured forever by the devil. Anything the government can do to you pales in comparison to Yahwehā€™s coercion.

          are more important than obligations to governments.

          You made this part up. Again. He didnā€™t say anything about obligations to governments, except that you should pay your taxes.

          • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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            10 months ago

            Caesar

            Starting with Tiberius, Roman emperors gave their heirs the name ā€œCaesar,ā€ such that ā€œCaesarā€ came to be known as the term used for the emperor or his heir (i.e. itā€™s the root of kaiser in German, tsar in Russia, ā€œqaysarā€ in the Ottoman Empire). Tiberius wasnā€™t born with the name and adopted it later, and took the honorific ā€œAugustusā€ when he took the throne. So ā€œCaesar Augustusā€ was the emperor, and ā€œCaesarā€ was either the emperor (shorthand) or the heir. Itā€™s kind of like a mix between family name and title, so ā€œCaesarā€ can refer to any of the line of dictators following Julius Caesar, or it can refer to the title of the emperor or his heir.

            So thatā€™s why I understand ā€œCaesarā€ in this context as whoever the ruling dictator is, not the government or society as a whole. This isnā€™t an admonition to act in the greater good, but to show obedience to those in charge, which is a theme Iā€™ll get back to later.

            If you donā€™t redistribute your wealth to the poor, you are going to be tortured by the devil.

            Jesus never says this. The only thing thatā€™s close is the ā€œeye of a needleā€ allegory, and the intention seems to communicate that itā€™s incredibly difficult, though not impossible. He has been more explicit about hard requirements elsewhere:

            Matthew 5:20

            For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven

            John 3:3,16

            Jesus answered him, ā€œTruly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.ā€

            John 3:16

            For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

            So Jesus hasnā€™t hesitated to use direct language, so it doesnā€™t make sense to take this as ā€œitā€™s impossible.ā€ In fact, just before the ā€œeye of a needleā€ allegory, he says itā€™s merely difficult.

            Mark 10:20-23

            And he said to him, ā€œTeacher, all these I have kept from my youth.ā€

            And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, ā€œYou lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.ā€

            Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

            And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, ā€œHow difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!ā€

            So itā€™s not the money itself thatā€™s the problem, but the love of money. Youā€™re not going to hell because you have a lot of money, youā€™re going to hell because you love it more than God, who has been explicit in whatā€™s most important.

            Matthew 22:36-40

            "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?ā€

            Jesus replied: ā€œā€˜Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.ā€™

            This is the first and greatest commandment.

            And the second is like it: ā€˜Love your neighbor as yourself.ā€™

            All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.ā€

            A wealthy person should feel obligated to help their fellow man because thatā€™s what God would do. But the actual law is to love God and your fellow man with all your heart, and thatā€™s possible while having a lot of wealth, just incredibly unlikely because most with wealth get it by being selfish.

            In short, if you feel God wants you to give everything away, you should not hesitate to do it, and that hesitation is what damned the rich young man, despite being otherwise righteous.

            He didnā€™t say anything about obligations to governments

            His Apostles did, such as Paul:

            Romans 13:1-7

            Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

            Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

            For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.

            For he is Godā€™s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is Godā€™s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5

            Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscienceā€™ sake.

            For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are Godā€™s ministers attending continually to this very thing.

            Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

            Jesus taught obedience consistently, and the Apostles taught what Jesus taught, so I see this as a retelling of what Jesus taught, not something new Paul came up with.

            So to me, the message is very clear, Jesus and God expect obedience, both to earthly rulers as well as heavenly ones. And hereā€™s how Jesus expects leaders to rule:

            Matthew 20:25-28

            Jesus called them together and said, ā€œYou know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.

            Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,

            and whoever wants to be first must be your slaveā€”

            just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.ā€

            So you must obey your leaders, and Jesus expects to leaders to serve those they lead. In that way everyone serves each other, but thereā€™s also order.

            Edit: couldnā€™t get the spoiler block to behave, so I canā€™t hide all the noisy verses.

            • btaf45@lemmy.world
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              10 months ago

              Why did you supply all those quotes that were irrelevant?

              Roman emperors gave their heirs the name ā€œCaesar,ā€ such that ā€œCaesarā€ came to be known as the term used for the emperor or his heir

              The emperor was the ā€œAugustusā€. ā€œCaesarā€ was the heir. Either way it makes my point. It was talking about the government, not a specific person.

              If you donā€™t redistribute your wealth to the poor, you are going to be tortured by the devil. Jesus never says this. The only thing thatā€™s close is the ā€œeye of a needleā€ allegory, and the intention seems to communicate that itā€™s incredibly difficult, though not impossible.

              It means that it is almost impossible for ā€œrichā€ men to go to heaven. Like one in a million. George Bush? Hell. Carly Fiorina? Hell. Betsy Devos? Hell. None of those people have anywhere near the humility and meekness to be the one in a million rich people who donā€™t go to hell.

              • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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                10 months ago

                Why did you supply all those quotes

                I couldnā€™t get the spoiler tag to work properly, and my intention was to establish cases where Jesus was explicit about requirements to establish how language is used.

                If Jesus meant being wealthy would disqualify you from heaven, he wouldā€™ve said so, but instead he said itā€™s ā€œdifficult.ā€ Thatā€™s an important distinction and shows that the root of the problem isnā€™t the money itself (else why would Job have received so many riches after his trial?). The thing that disqualifies you is loving material things more than God, not having the material things.

                The emperor was ā€œAugustusā€. ā€œCaesarā€ was the heir.

                No, ā€œCaesarā€ was the family name of the ruling family, as in the dynasty name. After Tiberius, the ruler was usually named ā€œCaesar Augustus,ā€ with ā€œAugustusā€ being an honorific, much like ā€œthe honorable.ā€

                So ā€œCaesarā€ was likely commonly used to refer to the ruling family, much like we might say ā€œthe Bidensā€ in the US. So Jesus was simply saying, ā€œgive to the ruler that which is the rulerā€™s,ā€ not ā€œpay your taxes so you can help you fellow man.ā€ Paying taxes was a moral obligation to promote social order, giving to God was a moral obligation to show obedience and love for God. If anything, the money given to the temple was used for more good than taxes.

                None of those people have anywhere near the humility or meekness

                Exactly (though itā€™s not your place to judge, thatā€™s Godā€™s job). Itā€™s not the money thatā€™s the issue here, the issue is prioritizing worldly things over God.

                If we use the gate example (again, thatā€™s in question by experts), the idea is that to get through the gate, the camel needs to leave behind its baggage, because otherwise itā€™s too tall to fit. A wealthy person needs to be willing to leave all their wealth behind you be with God, and thatā€™s less likely because of the way most people get their wealth. Iā€™m not saying thatā€™s what Jesus meant, but it does have a lot of merit and fits nicely with the rest of his message.

                If the young man said heā€™s willing to give up everything to follow Jesus, he wouldā€™ve compared him to Job or something as a good example of what one ā€œshouldā€ do. Worldly wealth and status are irrelevant to God, and he should be the one we want to impress, and we do that by aligning our will with his (e.g. he wants to see suffering alleviated, sinners repent, etc).

                And thatā€™s my entire point here. Nothing Jesus said indicates what form of government we should have, his message was for individuals to align their will with Godā€™s and follow his example. Thatā€™s it.

                • btaf45@lemmy.world
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                  10 months ago

                  but instead he said itā€™s ā€œdifficult.ā€

                  He didnā€™t say itā€™s merely ā€œdifficultā€. He essentually said it is almost impossible. That doesnā€™t mean only 1 in every 5 rich people can go to heaven. That means 1 in every 5000 or 1 in every 50000.

                  No, ā€œCaesarā€ was the family name of the ruling family, as in the dynasty name.

                  Nope. Not a dynasty name. It was the name of the heir to the throne. But yes ā€œCaesarā€ was symbolic of the government itself.

                  • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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                    10 months ago

                    almost impossible

                    No, he used the word difficult.

                    From what I understand, the wisdom at the time was that money was an indicator of favor from God, and Jesus went against that. However, I donā€™t think he meant that money was the issue, but merely a symptom of interests not aligned with Godā€™s. Many wealthy people care more about their wealth and fame than God or those around them.

                    Not a dynasty name

                    If you just said ā€œAugustus,ā€ people would think of Octavian, not the current emperor, so ā€œCaesar Augustusā€ wouldā€™ve been used to uniquely refer to the emperor. After Tiberius, emperors typically had both titles, and the heir apparent just had ā€œa Caesar,ā€ so it acted as a dynastic name, even if the heir wasnā€™t a blood relation (e.g. Tiberius himself was adopted). So both the emperor and heir held the title ā€œCaesarā€ and only the emperor also held the title ā€œAugustus.ā€

                    It seems odd for Jesus to be referring to the heir apparent here, he would be referring to the emperor. To add to it, Julius Caesar was deified, so ā€œCaesarā€ here likely has a double meaning to show the difference between a self-proclaimed god and the true God. Heā€™s not saying you should pay taxes to benefit others, heā€™s saying you should pay taxes because thatā€™s your legal obligation.

                    And yes, ā€œCaesarā€ was symbolic, but Iā€™d assume most would refer to the government as ā€œRome,ā€ not ā€œCaesar.ā€

    • crapwittyname@lemm.ee
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      10 months ago

      You are mixing up socialism and communism. Fair enough, Jesus wasnā€™t a socialist, because he lived millennia before that particular political stance was coined, but the examples you give kind of actually support the argument that he would have been a socialist if he lived today/he espoused an early type of socialism. Paying taxes, helping the poor, individual responsibility; these are all things a modern day socialist would support. Organising into communes - not so much.
      Also, it seems you are suggesting Donald Trump is a socialist? If so youā€™ve completely misunderstood the meaning of any kind of socialism.

      • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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        10 months ago

        Jesus wouldā€™ve been closer to communist, which is a stateless society based on communal ownership. He asked how followers to eliminate personal possessions and follow him, presumably subsisting on the charity of others. Thatā€™s the spirit of communism.

        Socialism, on the other hand, is democratic ownership of the means of production. Jesus wanted no part in ownership of anything, much less socializing ownership of communal goods. He believed in following the law, but only so far as his legal and moral obligation went. He never discussed setting up poor houses, redistribution of wealth, or anything a socialist might push for, he instead urged his followers to follow his example in helping the poor.

        If we have to ascribe a political philosophy, heā€™s a libertarian who is morally opposed to personal ownership, but also opposed to forceful removal of ownership. Heā€™d rather live destitute than force others to share, because this life is ephemeral and true rewards are in heaven.

        Trump

        No, Trump is not a socialist, heā€™s a narcissist. He would support a socialist policy if it meant he could get recognition for it (see COVID checks, which he insisted bear his name).

        Jesus, on the other hand, told people to not tell others he healed them (Luke 5:12-14). Jesus didnā€™t want recognition, he just wanted to do good and set a good example. Thatā€™s the sense that Trump is the opposite of Jesus, not wrt policy, but the examples they each set.

        And yeah, Trump would be a socialist if he thought that would get him into power. He doesnā€™t really care about policy, he cares about fame and money, and money only because it buys fame. Jesus rejected both from Satan (Matthew 4:1-11, esp verses 8-10):

        Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.

        And he said to Him, ā€œAll these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.ā€

        Then Jesus said to him, ā€œAway with you, Satan! For it is written, ā€˜You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.ā€™ ā€

        Trump worships himself, Jesus calls others to worship his father.