• Bongles@lemmy.zip
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    5
    ·
    1 hour ago

    I just learned about “man thing” in terminal a couple days ago. I had no idea they’re kept in that folder.

    • Hadriscus@jlai.lu
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      edit-2
      31 minutes ago

      what folder ? please tell me I’m just starting out. So far I’ve tried “man libwacom” (because I’m having trouble with my tablet) but it says there’s no entry for the package. Do most packages usually have a manual entry ?

      • twice_hatch@midwest.social
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        18 minutes ago

        I found them under /usr/share/man/, then “man1”, “man2”, “man3” etc. based on the category system (which I think is like, libraries, syscalls, exes, something like that)

        I intuited /usr/share because almost everything the package manager installs will be under /usr somewhere, and man pages aren’t binaries or libraries, they’re architecture-independent, so they can’t be /usr/bin/ or /usr/lib, they’ll probably be in /usr/share and luckily I saw “man” under there.

        Hope that helps! Reading the FHS guide is a good learning experience but nobody should have to do it.

  • Magnus@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    7
    ·
    2 hours ago

    I’ve been using Linux for about a year now, I have no clue what is even in /usr/bin …you people have manuals?! I needed a manual to find the thing.

    • SaltyIceteaMaker@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      4
      ·
      edit-2
      1 hour ago

      it is where all the binaries (programs) live (that are not system critical, those would be in sbin). so whenever you execute ls? it is actually /usr/bin/ls and so on and so forth.

      then there is the “man” command. basically a manual. you can use it to find out stuff about other commands and such by just typing “man [command]” for example “man ls”

      edit: this knowledge has NOT been acquired by RTFM but rather by watching YouTube

      • Magnus@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        1 hour ago

        Thanks that’s a massive help, I’m usually just searching around GitHub, forums and YouTube for info, literally never used the man command.

        • SaltyIceteaMaker@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          29 minutes ago

          you may or may not need to install it first, depending on wether your distro ships it by default. for how to install it you should open your distros wiki in your browser

    • turmoil@feddit.org
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      1 hour ago

      Just type in man <your binary> to go through the binary manual, also called man page :)

  • AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    8
    ·
    4 hours ago

    Lol. That’s exactly what I did in the early 90s. ls /usr/bin, then man at, or whatever it was that came first, and work onwards from there.
    Moreso when I installed my own Unix machine (briefly Minix, quickly replaced by Linux) and had to actually learn how to manage it.

    But then I came from a mix of 8 bit, PC and semi big iron (Tandem) culture where any machine you used would matter of factly come with a litteral wall of binders containing documentation for pretty much anything (which led to the fun regular “documentation day” where you had to manually “patch” the documentation by replacing pages in all the binders with updated ones).
    Anyway knowing what the fuck you were doing was pretty much expected. So everyone spent a lot of time perusing documentation.

    Of course nowadays, to read documentation, you first have to find it, which can be quite a challenge in itself. But at least the manpages are still there.

  • rozodru@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    7
    ·
    5 hours ago

    I read the manuals for everything now. I think it’s because when I was a kid videogames used to come with great manuals and half the fun was just reading through those. One of my favourites was for the original Heavy Gear on PC. that thing was like a hybrid manual and lore bible. Or old Flight Sim games with manuals that were as thick as text books.

    Now you don’t get shit.

    • Hadriscus@jlai.lu
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      29 minutes ago

      Yep, I remember fondly the booklets in the disc cases. Some were light, some were thorough. It’s a lost art

  • sleepmode@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    17
    ·
    10 hours ago

    After a while it’s basically muscle memory so you don’t have to go digging as much. OpenBSD’s are my favorite. So well-written.

    • bigfondue@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      5 hours ago

      Yea I run OpenBsd on my VPS. So much nicer than having to wonder where this particular Linux distro decided to keep this particular config file.

  • MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    29
    ·
    11 hours ago

    I work in IT. I’ve read so many manuals that I don’t need to read manuals almost ever.

    As soon as you learn the design language for stuff, it usually just makes sense where to find stuff and how to fix it. It’s rare that I have a problem that I can’t solve just by looking at it.

    If I ever get stuck, guess what? I RTFM. That’s basically my job. I RTFM because end users can’t be arsed to do it themselves. If everyone read the manual, I’d be out of a job.

      • Druid@lemmy.zip
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        40 minutes ago

        I’ll be honest, I’m guilty of using Chat GPT at times for stuff I know barely anything about and know I probably won’t be able to find through research as quickly as I’d like to. I always try the old-fashioned way of using a search engine first, go through reddit and forums and stuff, but sometimes I just need to use AI for a good first pointer

  • Defectus@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    13
    ·
    11 hours ago

    I think LBD is the other half of it. If you have the confidence to try and fix or build something you Learn By Doing it. That eventually compounds and you could pretty much do anything. Maybe takes a bit longer than a professional would do it. A great shortcut would be to RTFM

  • downhomechunk@midwest.social
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    27
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    14 hours ago

    I take RTFM more broadly to mean that I at least put in some effort to solve the problem myself. I googled, checked forum posts, read the man page, opened a config file or two and read some comments, etc. So I get offended when I get RTFM’d.

    If you can’t reply without being a dick, then keep scrolling! Why participate in a forum where people with less experiece ask questions in the first place? That time could be better spent reading your shop vac manual or figuring out who you need to blow to save $700 on a dishwasher repair.

    • AppleStrudel@reddthat.com
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      9
      ·
      11 hours ago

      Yup.

      What even is your problem that you’ll get worked up enough to spend energy spreading misery over some tiny annoyance from some internet stranger? Do you get pleasure out of that? If so, for shame.

      When I get annoyed by some internet stranger’s conduct online, I don’t engage. I disengage. Life’s too short to get worked up over the little things I find, and we’ll all feel better when we don’t engage in that negativity.

      Yes, I’ve blocked people without ever saying a single word. Sometimes while lurking, I’ll find some conduct (not beliefs, conduct) that I disagree with. I don’t then go on and admonish them, I make them “disappear” from my life, then go on thinking about what I should eat for dinner.

      • tired_n_bored@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        9 hours ago

        I don’t understand why some internet users are like this. Like it costs literally nothing to be nice. The only people who spread hate and insults online are those who have a miserable real life, so not worth engaging with.

        • pfr@lemmy.sdf.org
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          4
          ·
          edit-2
          6 hours ago

          Let me firstly say that I 100% agree with all of the above. And secondly, I don’t work in tech.

          But I think most of the frustration from the grey beards is possibly because they’re burnt out. They’ve probably been answering the same questions their entire life. And there comes a point when the actual answer becomes, RTFM.

          I don’t agree it’s an appropriate response. The mere fact that the acronym has profanity in it suggests it’s an aggressive response.

          I’ve been on forums before where, instead of saying “RTFM”, someone had just linked me to the appropriate man page… Essentially the same message, but far more helpful and a much less insulting.

          In my opinion it’s not wrong to tell someone to read the manual, especially if the answer is in it, but it’s how you say it that matters.

  • Bubbaonthebeach@lemmy.ca
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    34
    ·
    15 hours ago

    One of my pet peeves is how many new things do not come with a manual and I have to go and find one. I am one of the fortunate ones who can learn by reading and then trying. It seems that many cannot.

      • ulterno@programming.dev
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        0
        ·
        24 minutes ago

        When the company doesn’t want you repairing the stuff you paid them for, they don’t make good manuals.

    • ExhibiCat@lemmynsfw.com
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      14
      ·
      edit-2
      13 hours ago

      Yes in the 80s electronic equipment like TVs even came with electrical schematics in the box. Not really intended for most end users (repairing a CRT is quite dangerous if you don’t know what you’re doing) but to help the repair guy. No extended warranty scams, no approved dealers get parts only. Just all the help they could offer.

      Now there’s a one page leaflet in the box showing where the on button is and for the rest you’ll have to find the pdf.

      Software came with thick ring binders describing every feature and updates came with inserts to put at the right places in the binders. Manuals actually were useful.

  • BradleyUffner@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    91
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    edit-2
    19 hours ago

    For appliances at least, 95% of “the manual” today is useless CYA safety disclosures in 17 different languages. Manuals today rarely contain useful information.

    • AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      4 hours ago

      There’s sometimes a few Ikea style pictures showing how to put it on a table and plug it in. Which is possibly useful to some.

    • evasive_chimpanzee@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      39
      ·
      19 hours ago

      Until you do like step one of taking an appliance apart, and realize that the real manual is marked “for technician use only”, and it’s hidden inside of the appliance.

      My washer and dryer both have good manuals complete with circuit diagrams under the top once i take a few screws out. My chest freezer has one taped up under the hatch where the compresser sits. My refrigerator has one hidden in the door hinge.

      • jj4211@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        15
        ·
        18 hours ago

        Yeah, my parents were about to throw out an oven that would keep shutting off. I pull it away from the wall and boom, wiring diagram. Take out the ohm meter, figure out that the resistance across the temperature probe went to near zero when steam intruded through a gap in the crimp. 5 dollar part and it was good to go for years to come (the new part was crimped in a simpler, more robust way).

      • Mike D.@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        7
        ·
        18 hours ago

        Dishwasher had the service manual taped to the kick plate. It gave me codes to troubleshoot, finding the heating element died.

        • evasive_chimpanzee@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          25 minutes ago

          Ah, yeah, forgot that was another one I’ve done. It seems like I’ve taken apart most of my household appliances at this point.

      • Montagge@lemmy.zip
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        18 hours ago

        Yup, just got done wiring up an old washer to turn it into a feather plucker using the technician only manual!

    • onslaught545@lemmy.zip
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      29
      ·
      18 hours ago

      The actual manual is usually hidden somewhere on it for repair techs to find. For my oven it was taped on the back.

      • tomkatt@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        7
        ·
        edit-2
        15 hours ago

        Yep. I needed the circuit diagram for my microwave to fix an issue with the light (kept blowing out bulbs rapidly). Turned out you have to pull it out of the top inner frame, after unscrewing the button board and top panel. Thankfully, was an easy soldering fix, thyristor blew.

        • BeardedGingerWonder@feddit.uk
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          7 hours ago

          Generally microwaves are amongst the devices I tag as “do not self repair” I lack the confidence in my repair skills to fuck with the machine with giant caps and built in death ray.

          • tomkatt@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            34 minutes ago

            If it was a problem with the microwave function I don’t think I’d have bothered. I’m terrible at repairing things and break most things worse than they were before. But it was the lightbulb acting up (the underside one, we’ve got an over-range mounted unit).

            In this case I had the circuit diagram and multiple YouTube videos to lean on. Thankfully the thyristor is big, because I’m terrible at soldering, but it worked out.

    • rumba@lemmy.zip
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      8
      ·
      18 hours ago

      Appliance repair in the 20’s? WTFY (Watch the fucking Youtube)

      query:samsung Ice maker stoped working

      Hi, I’m jimmy from shadyApplianceParts.com Did your samsung ice box stop making ice? That’s a common problem. What you need to…

    • NeatNit@discuss.tchncs.de
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      6
      ·
      18 hours ago

      Honestly I have to disagree. All my recently purchased appliances: microwave, washing machine, dishwasher and induction cooktop, had detailed instruction manuals that were genuinely useful, especially where the finer details aren’t obvious from the device itself.

      Heck, even my wireless earbuds had a little bit of useful info, like how to force them into pairing mode.

      Of course, all those manuals contained those nonsense safety warnings too (and I read every word of course! :P) but that’s neither here nor there.

      • AppleStrudel@reddthat.com
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        11 hours ago

        All those safety warnings are useless nonsense, until:

        This vacuum is not water resistant and no part of it shall come into contact with water. Do not operate this vacuum on wet floors.

        Wash the infuser with water or coffee machine cleaning powder only. Do not wash with soap. Every 6 months, relubricate the seals with food and water safe silicone grease certified with NSF/ANSI/CAN 61 and NSF/ANSI 51.

        Well, good to know.

    • pHr34kY@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      3
      ·
      18 hours ago

      The troubleshooting section of the manual is almost always useless because it only ever covers user error.

      My washer threw a drainage error and the manual suggested I blocked the outlet or had done something daft. I looked up the error code online and 90% of the time it was a failed water pump.

      I had to replace the water pump. It was an easy job that required less documentation than a lego set for a 5 year old. You just had to know which screws to loosen to get to the pump. Was it documented? Of course not.

  • Postimo@lemmy.zip
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    56
    arrow-down
    17
    ·
    edit-2
    17 hours ago

    The idea that manuals in linux are a good way to learn and understand new software is peak linux neckbeard bs, and I will die on this hill. I congratulate OP on the exact type of autism that lets them feel this is an effective and useful method for learning new software, but if there is desire to have a greater adoption of linux maybe its bad to be snarky at folks for not instantly understand the terminal based documentation conventions of some dudes in the 70s. Maybe an alphabetical* list of all possible options is okay for referencing or searching, but is objectively insane way to learn or understand a problem.

    • bluecat_OwO@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      5
      ·
      9 hours ago

      initially when I was learning linux. I had troubles finding the command I needed. I could have first gone and read everything and then come back to try, which I did. But sometimes the man pages, the ubuntu and arch forums weren’t as great of a help as messing up myself.

      Could there be a better way to document with slightly more examples: yes. Would it help: tons

      But this is just my opinion, and I am just a noob

    • 𝓹𝓻𝓲𝓷𝓬𝓮𝓼𝓼@lemmy.blahaj.zone
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      8
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      11 hours ago

      as a professional sociotechnical problem solver I will join you on this fatal hill

      like take the 4 types of documentation in diátaxis

      man pages usually fulfill the reference need, and sometimes kind of that of how-to guides if you’re lucky and your local man has examples

      but that leaves more than 50% of documentation needs lacking

      and discoverability is atrocious – you have to already know that the command (or commands) you need exists and what it’s called

      one of the most useful things I learned in a linux sysadmin course was apropos / man -k, which lets you search installed man pages by keyword. but hardly anyone else seems to know about it – I only learned of it because a teaching assistant mentioned it off hand! – and even then it only helps if you guess the right keyword for your problem

      I am vexed by this situation

    • Rooty@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      12
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      12 hours ago

      Name calls people who read documentation.

      Does not offer any alternative.

      “No John, you are the neckbeards!”

    • Eugene V. Debs' Ghost@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      9
      ·
      13 hours ago

      There’s other ways to get info. And man pages are a great way to learn how something is expected to work on your system. And it’s offline, without ads, scams, ai generated false info.

      • tomkatt@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        8
        arrow-down
        5
        ·
        15 hours ago

        You might be thinking of info pages. The man pages are just the instructions, feature flags, etc. generally, while info (when available) usually has a more general / layman description of the command with examples.

    • tired_n_bored@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      5
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      edit-2
      9 hours ago

      THIS. I feel like linux man pages are as useful as an Analytical mechanics textbook for someone who just wants to drive. Like yes, sure, it’s amazing we have such a detailed documentation but for God’s sake just introduce basic usages first

    • rtxn@lemmy.worldM
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      15
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      16 hours ago

      It’s a good thing there are other resources, then. You can read tldr-pages. You can look at various official and unofficial wikis. You can look at Stackoverflow. You can look at Youtube tutorials. You can ask other people. Hell, you can ask a chatbot.

      If the average user is unwilling to do that, maybe it’s better that Linux does not see a wider adoption.

      • Postimo@lemmy.zip
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        31 minutes ago

        Agreed! You can look elsewhere, and that’s how I, and I think many other folks, learned. The OP was talking about the manuals though, specifically mentioning /usr/bin. So to restate my point is not to say it’s impossible to learn linux, but that man pages are weird and bad place to push folks looking to learn.

      • 𝓹𝓻𝓲𝓷𝓬𝓮𝓼𝓼@lemmy.blahaj.zone
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        11 hours ago

        is the fact that people can with effort and error figure out how to do something a reason not to make it easier for them to do?

        I mean

        you can in theory write multi-threaded bug-free C code – just read the docs and the specs and the source of your libs and never ever do something that seems to work but is subtly fatally incorrect

        and yet we still have golang and rust and many other options to do things more safely and easily

        if someone wants to use Linux but doesn’t want to memorize the Hundred Mandatory Commands and Thousand Flags lest they accidentally cat > /dev/sda, why shouldn’t there be a system for them?

        • rtxn@lemmy.worldM
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          5
          ·
          7 hours ago

          The community abhors change. Especially changes that break conventions, even informal ones. Look at the temper tantrums people are throwing because Wayland does things differently from X.org. Changing output redirection in Bash, or how dd works, or any number of long-standing conventions because new users are unwilling to adapt to a new system and might end up dding over the root partition would break established workflows, and worse, existing scripts and services.

          But the solution already exists, it’s called wrapper programs. You don’t have to manually update AUR packages because yay and paru already do that. You don’t have to figure out how fdisk and mkfs work because Gparted and Partition Manager do it for you.

          Nevertheless, using a system should always and forever be the user’s responsibility. Otherwise Linux would turn into a locked-down play pen like Apple products.

    • Noxy@pawb.social
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      7 hours ago

      ssh connects and logs into the specified destination, which may be specified as either [user@]hostname or a URI of the form ssh://[user@]hostname[:port]

      ssh [admin@]192.168.1.1
      ssh: Could not resolve hostname ]192.168.1.1: No address associated with hostname
      

      That’s how I would interpret that part of the man page had I no familiarity with ssh. It doesn’t seem reasonable to expect the reader to know what those brackets mean.

      • Postimo@lemmy.zip
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        36 minutes ago

        Agreed, and I think a larger part of it is that most folks pick it up based on context after long enough, so it’s rarely explained. The square brackets are optional arguments. So I could use ssh 192.168.1.1 or ssh postimo@192.168.1.1 with the first asking for the account after I connect, and the second just asking for the password. You can see how the computer took it in the response you got. hostname ]192.168.1.1 being it saw the @ and assumed everything after was the hostname and included the ]

        It’s worth noting that you can’t just connect to a random machine like this, they need to also be running an ssh server. But I wouldn’t expect you to know that without reading a great deal more of the documentation 🫠

        • Noxy@pawb.social
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          23 seconds ago

          I’ve been using ssh for decades, you don’t have to explain it to me. It was a purely contrived example to simulate what I think a new user might experience if faced with that particular man page as their only documentation.

      • AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        4 hours ago

        You get to learn the notation conventions with <> and [] fairly early on. Maybe a very new user would make that mistake. If he doesn’t get it fairly quick, maybe computers aren’t for him.

        • Noxy@pawb.social
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          5 minutes ago

          BS. I’ve been using linux for over 20 years and I still don’t know what those mean. I can only guess from context. It’s a stupid convention to just use symbols like that and never explain it.

  • ComradeMiao@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    26
    arrow-down
    4
    ·
    17 hours ago

    I hardly think memorizing every useless fact in a manual and blowing the technician is the best way to learn. In Linux I encounter problems and seek the answers then I know how to apply this knowledge in the future. This isn’t dynastic China where we must memorize the five great books (/usr/bin, fridge, stove, furnace, and the analects) in order to progress in life.