Trans men are men and I believe the trans-affirming position is to exclude them, but if you’ve read Leslie Feinberg’s Stone Butch Blues you already know it can be quite complicated - so we let trans men decide whether they belong in a womens-only community.
Some trans men have a butch lesbian identity before they transition that they continue to have a connection to, and it can be hard for some trans men to lose their connection to a community of women. Some trans men are not passing and continue to move through the world perceived as a woman despite having a gender identity that makes them a man.
Either way, I have understood the trans rule as allowing any trans individuals decide whether they feel they belong here or not. My understanding might be wrong, or we might need to revise the rule or my understanding of it.
Oh, I’m all for including them. I was just surprised, no worries!
And yes, if you’re a trans man who doesn’t (yet?) pass, it would be cruel to be forced out of connections without commensurate connections being formed on the other side of the transition.
I mean, I don’t know - I still debate this with myself tbh, it makes me feel a bit ill to include trans men in womens spaces because it’s just so transphobic on the face of it, it reminds me of womens spaces like the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival which famously excluded trans women from attending or performing, but allowed fully transitioned trans men not only to attend but to perform …
There is some implicit notion that when a woman becomes more masculine it is good, and trans men somehow embody the ultimate apotheosis of a woman (i.e. a woman who achieves manhood), it all just reeks of misogyny and transphobia to me. This thinking seems to hate femininity and it negates the male gender identity of trans men.
But being trans is so difficult even for the trans individual to come to terms with or understand that it’s not uncommon for trans folks to have complicated relationships to gender. A lot of us fall are not strictly binary, and we fall somewhere between men or women.
Some of us are binary enough but have been so pressured by society to fit in one box even after we realize we don’t fix that box we don’t feel we can move to the other box.
So I guess the “even trans men” is a way to just leave wiggle room for people to decide for themselves, and to prioritize self-identity, even though that is admittedly messy. And yes, it is to avoid someone feeling wronged by being excluded from a space where they feel they belong.
There is some implicit notion that when a woman becomes more masculinity it is good, and trans men somehow embody the ultimate apotheosis of a woman (i.e. a woman who achieves manhood), it all just reeks of misogyny and transphobia to me. This thinking seems to hate femininity and it negates the male gender identity of trans men.
It’s certainly not a notion I hold.
My own stance on this is strictly from the “harm done” angle. Transitioning is already incredibly tough to do. You’re probably losing friends. You’re probably losing family. Everybody around you is looking at you with different eyes, many of which are hostile.
To suddenly lose an entire community that was supportive (presumably) as well? That would be nasty!
Yes, and being a man is very alienating and lonely … that aspect of transitioning to be a man can be a bit of a shock I’ve heard.
I think the rule should allow those people to decide to what extent they belong in a womens-only community, and that gives them the space to make that decision … there is also the fact that in my mind a big reason for a womens space is to provide a space where people who have been oppressed as women can talk away from the oppressors, and trans men typically have a history of living as a woman and thus having had the experiences of that social oppression (despite being men).
Either way, allowing people to self-identify and choose themselves whether they belong in a women-only community (rather than gatekeeping others identities) seems like the right approach to me.
I guess the subreddit allowing comments from trans men but not cis men makes me feel uncomfortable because I’d like to feel like I’m accepted in c/womensstuff because I’m a woman, not because I’m trans. If othera trans people are accepted into a women’s community because they’re trans and not a woman, and it makes me wonder why I’m specifically allowed here. If that makes sense.
But the polices here are far better than, in your example, womens’ communities who accept anyone with two x chromosomes.
And I’m not saying anyone should be excluded on my account. I know what exclusion feels like and it hurts. You’re right, it is very individual, and I personally don’t want to be anywhere near a men-only space. But there’s so much I can never understand about the trans man experience being a trans woman. Keep on doing what you’re doing. This is a well moderated community :)
It should be clarified: this is a womens-only community that allows trans & intersex folks (including non-women and trans men) to decide for themselves whether they feel they belong in a womens-only community. We technically allow cis men to disclose whether they’re women or not, too - when we don’t know, we just ask! It’s not that different for a trans man, we just might have extra language of “you decide whether you feel you belong here”.
But that’s not why you belong here, you belong because you’re a woman, silly 😝
Wanting to be included in spaces that align with one’s gender identity doesn’t have anything to do with passing though.
And while I can’t speak for all of us, being accepted in opposite-gender spaces because we don’t pass is no consolation prize. To the contrary, telling a trans woman, “You should find men’s spaces to be accepted in until you pass,” or vice versa, is what’s actually cruel.
… if you’re a trans-man who doesn’t (yet?) pass, it would be cruel to be forced out of connections …
Yes. Yes it is. I’m saying that if you’re in transition to manhood, being told “you can’t hang with us anymore because you’re of the icky gender” from previous friends and allies is cruel.
I had another comment but I deleted it. It just sounds like you don’t want anyone to feel alone during the difficult process of transition, from a harm reduction standpoint, and that’s admirable.
I think I was just thrown by your wording about passing and then misinterpreted you, but I see what you mean. I’m a person who would rather be alone than be in men-only social spaces, but that’s not everyone, and I’m glad that this womens’ community can be a place of belonging for transmascs on their journies who choose to participate here.
yea, admittedly I don’t see transfems wanting to hang around mens-only spaces the same way some trans men have trouble moving on from a butch lesbian identity, for example.
The closest I could think of is the way some transfems end up stuck in femboy or sissy cultures and they have trouble moving on from that even when they’re dysphoric and suffering for it, but I still think that’s a different experience.
That said, I don’t know if you’ve seen Will & Harper (incidentally I hated this film and thought it did a terrible job at both trans representation and modeling cis allyship), but the film is about Harper, a woman who transitioned in her 60s, and she goes on a roadtrip with her friend Will Ferrell.
Part of the film is about Harper attempting to recreate the experiences she had as a man traveling freely through small towns and going to sketchy bars, and that felt a bit like the analogous experience to the trans man who feels connection to women community. Harper longed for a kind of belonging to a particular space that was largely male-coded … not unlike the way Sylvia Plath, a cis woman, yearned for that nomadic adventurous freedom, “to be able to sleep in an open field, to travel west, to walk freely at night”, which was not accessible to her as a woman.
Trans men are men and I believe the trans-affirming position is to exclude them, but if you’ve read Leslie Feinberg’s Stone Butch Blues you already know it can be quite complicated - so we let trans men decide whether they belong in a womens-only community.
Some trans men have a butch lesbian identity before they transition that they continue to have a connection to, and it can be hard for some trans men to lose their connection to a community of women. Some trans men are not passing and continue to move through the world perceived as a woman despite having a gender identity that makes them a man.
Either way, I have understood the trans rule as allowing any trans individuals decide whether they feel they belong here or not. My understanding might be wrong, or we might need to revise the rule or my understanding of it.
Oh, I’m all for including them. I was just surprised, no worries!
And yes, if you’re a trans man who doesn’t (yet?) pass, it would be cruel to be forced out of connections without commensurate connections being formed on the other side of the transition.
I mean, I don’t know - I still debate this with myself tbh, it makes me feel a bit ill to include trans men in womens spaces because it’s just so transphobic on the face of it, it reminds me of womens spaces like the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival which famously excluded trans women from attending or performing, but allowed fully transitioned trans men not only to attend but to perform …
There is some implicit notion that when a woman becomes more masculine it is good, and trans men somehow embody the ultimate apotheosis of a woman (i.e. a woman who achieves manhood), it all just reeks of misogyny and transphobia to me. This thinking seems to hate femininity and it negates the male gender identity of trans men.
But being trans is so difficult even for the trans individual to come to terms with or understand that it’s not uncommon for trans folks to have complicated relationships to gender. A lot of us fall are not strictly binary, and we fall somewhere between men or women.
Some of us are binary enough but have been so pressured by society to fit in one box even after we realize we don’t fix that box we don’t feel we can move to the other box.
So I guess the “even trans men” is a way to just leave wiggle room for people to decide for themselves, and to prioritize self-identity, even though that is admittedly messy. And yes, it is to avoid someone feeling wronged by being excluded from a space where they feel they belong.
It’s certainly not a notion I hold.
My own stance on this is strictly from the “harm done” angle. Transitioning is already incredibly tough to do. You’re probably losing friends. You’re probably losing family. Everybody around you is looking at you with different eyes, many of which are hostile.
To suddenly lose an entire community that was supportive (presumably) as well? That would be nasty!
Yes, and being a man is very alienating and lonely … that aspect of transitioning to be a man can be a bit of a shock I’ve heard.
I think the rule should allow those people to decide to what extent they belong in a womens-only community, and that gives them the space to make that decision … there is also the fact that in my mind a big reason for a womens space is to provide a space where people who have been oppressed as women can talk away from the oppressors, and trans men typically have a history of living as a woman and thus having had the experiences of that social oppression (despite being men).
Either way, allowing people to self-identify and choose themselves whether they belong in a women-only community (rather than gatekeeping others identities) seems like the right approach to me.
That makes sense. Thank you for clarifying.
I guess the subreddit allowing comments from trans men but not cis men makes me feel uncomfortable because I’d like to feel like I’m accepted in c/womensstuff because I’m a woman, not because I’m trans. If othera trans people are accepted into a women’s community because they’re trans and not a woman, and it makes me wonder why I’m specifically allowed here. If that makes sense.
But the polices here are far better than, in your example, womens’ communities who accept anyone with two x chromosomes.
And I’m not saying anyone should be excluded on my account. I know what exclusion feels like and it hurts. You’re right, it is very individual, and I personally don’t want to be anywhere near a men-only space. But there’s so much I can never understand about the trans man experience being a trans woman. Keep on doing what you’re doing. This is a well moderated community :)
It should be clarified: this is a womens-only community that allows trans & intersex folks (including non-women and trans men) to decide for themselves whether they feel they belong in a womens-only community. We technically allow cis men to disclose whether they’re women or not, too - when we don’t know, we just ask! It’s not that different for a trans man, we just might have extra language of “you decide whether you feel you belong here”.
But that’s not why you belong here, you belong because you’re a woman, silly 😝
I appreciate the clarification. Thank you 🙂
Wanting to be included in spaces that align with one’s gender identity doesn’t have anything to do with passing though.
And while I can’t speak for all of us, being accepted in opposite-gender spaces because we don’t pass is no consolation prize. To the contrary, telling a trans woman, “You should find men’s spaces to be accepted in until you pass,” or vice versa, is what’s actually cruel.
I … think that’s what I actually said?
Yes. Yes it is. I’m saying that if you’re in transition to manhood, being told “you can’t hang with us anymore because you’re of the icky gender” from previous friends and allies is cruel.
I had another comment but I deleted it. It just sounds like you don’t want anyone to feel alone during the difficult process of transition, from a harm reduction standpoint, and that’s admirable.
I think I was just thrown by your wording about passing and then misinterpreted you, but I see what you mean. I’m a person who would rather be alone than be in men-only social spaces, but that’s not everyone, and I’m glad that this womens’ community can be a place of belonging for transmascs on their journies who choose to participate here.
yea, admittedly I don’t see transfems wanting to hang around mens-only spaces the same way some trans men have trouble moving on from a butch lesbian identity, for example.
The closest I could think of is the way some transfems end up stuck in femboy or sissy cultures and they have trouble moving on from that even when they’re dysphoric and suffering for it, but I still think that’s a different experience.
That said, I don’t know if you’ve seen Will & Harper (incidentally I hated this film and thought it did a terrible job at both trans representation and modeling cis allyship), but the film is about Harper, a woman who transitioned in her 60s, and she goes on a roadtrip with her friend Will Ferrell.
Part of the film is about Harper attempting to recreate the experiences she had as a man traveling freely through small towns and going to sketchy bars, and that felt a bit like the analogous experience to the trans man who feels connection to women community. Harper longed for a kind of belonging to a particular space that was largely male-coded … not unlike the way Sylvia Plath, a cis woman, yearned for that nomadic adventurous freedom, “to be able to sleep in an open field, to travel west, to walk freely at night”, which was not accessible to her as a woman.
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