Yeah so… uh… That kinda goes both ways. I’ve made this argument before so I’m just gonna copy paste it, but lemme just…
Have you ever heard of gambler’s ruin? It’s the name of a few different results in statistics, but the one we want is this:
In statistics, gambler’s ruin is the fact that a gambler playing a game with negative expected value will eventually go bankrupt, regardless of their betting system.
Now in modern US elections, does your bet have a positive or negative expected value for democracy? Is America becoming more or less of a democracy every election on average? Apply the theorem above to your answer and see what you get.
To change the inevitable result, which is fascism in the United States, you have to change the game in some way, and primarying incumbents and voting blue no matter who is what progressives are already doing.
Your metaphor is flawed. Opting out does not save you anything because voting doesn’t cost you anything in the first place. If you got a free bet, why wouldn’t you take it?
It’s more like we’re on a sinking ship and bailing water. The ship is going down if we don’t patch the hole, but bailing water still buys us time so that we can make more attempts to patch the hole. Except in this metaphor, bailing is something that takes maybe an hour of your time once every two years.
Dems aren’t helping the ship stay afloat. They’re stopping the people from patching the hole because they’re “powerless”. Dems and Reps aren’t the same because they’re equally as bad, they’re the same because they’re on the same team. They’re both shameless fascists.
Opting out does not save you anything because voting doesn’t cost you anything in the first place.
The bet here isn’t voting; it’s elections. An election is an essentially random process where depending on the result things change either for the best or for the worst. If you somehow quantify how far America is from fascism (say, in terms of how many Republican terms it would take to go from the situation at hand to full-blown fascism) then you can model elections as a bet where you’re forced to participate and don’t get to choose your stake. Again, under this model (which should be accurate since the conditions for its application are all there) you will end up at fascism unless you change the game you’re being forced to play so the odds are in your favor rather than the fascists’. I also want to point out that this isn’t an analogy; it’s a model. I’m simply taking a principle that exists in one field, making some simplifying assumptions and applying it in another. What I outlined here isn’t a “what if” analogy; it’s one step removed from a mathematical certainty.
It’s more like we’re on a sinking ship and bailing water. The ship is going down if we don’t patch the hole, but bailing water still buys us time so that we can make more attempts to patch the hole. Except in this metaphor, bailing is something that takes maybe an hour of your time once every two years.
I have no problem with the act of voting itself. My problem is with… everything else that happens during election season. The whole idea of unity with liberals (aka Democrats) against the right is evidently a failed preposition, and the reason for that failure is specifically that the Democratic Party is invested in the game’s present state and will force you (or, more accurately, already forces you) to cooperate with them to maintain the game before you’re allowed to be “united” with them. To borrow your analogy, the Democrats are the ship’s captain, who is helping you bail water but only on the condition that you don’t patch the holes (and yes, there’s more than one). You’re not even supposed to point out that neither you nor him are patching the holes. Instead, you and the rest of the crew are supposed to just keep bailing and ignore the rising water level. And to be clear, the bailing isn’t just one thing you do every two years; that doesn’t begin to capture the opportunity cost involved. Your bailing in this analogy is voting drives, canvassing and other outreach on behalf of the Democrats; it’s political donations; it’s suppressing criticism of the DNC (attempts to get the captain to patch the damn hole) in the name of unity against the far-right. The actual voting is only the end of this long string of actions that sap energy, money and credibility from the people who would otherwise be out there actually patching the damn holes.
Okay analogy over, back to the real world. The DNC should’ve been fucking flayed alive when they tried to push a pro-genocide ex-DA on Americans, and instead all they got was progressives hushing down other progressives in the name of “unity”. I’m sure you can think of all sorts of examples of this in action, but here’s one to drive the point: the progressive reaction to the Uncommitted Movement. This was a large movement that had gained momentum in an attempt to push the DNC from proto-fascism and into the sanity, and what did they get from not even liberals, but progressives who should have been their most ardent supporters? “Hold your nose and vote for her.” Not a nationwide solidarity to force the Democrats to back down on their most unpopular policies, not even tepid support or apathy, but active, emphatic opposition. That’s not the stuff of democracy; that’s a dictatorship where you roll a dice every four years to find out which boot will step on your neck until the next election.
I should note: I’m not advocating for passivity or apathy here. This shouldn’t be a reason for you or anyone else to stay home and give up; it should be an impetus to organize, embrace solidarity between workers and take on the capitalists and their supporters. Act, but act according to your own conscience, not according to the DNC’s agenda. This is especially important right now because the Democrats won’t save you from fascism even if they wanted to, but even if democracy and the DNC both survive Trump, next time you be on the side doing the flaying and not the side practicing cannibalism on behalf of your blue donkey overlords.
This exactly. I have voted for every progressive candidate that has come up on the ballot. And yet every single time the middle of the road Democrat wins. Because that’s where the DNC puts the money. And in the general I always vote for whatever Democrat has won the primary. And quite frankly I always feel sick that I voted for somebody that I wouldn’t vote for if I had a better choice.
So I think I’m going to choose not to vote in the general if the progressive I vote for doesn’t win. I’m tired of a democratic party that is more interested in protecting their position than actually doing their job.
And yet every single time the middle of the road Democrat wins.
It couldn’t be that the middle of the road Democrat is simply popular among the majority of the voting population? Nah couldn’t be. Everybody in my family loves when I rant about the benefits of communism at Thanksgiving.
I think you should still vote just to show you’re an active voter that they failed to court, but vote for independents, 3rd party, write in, whatever.
Honestly, I think the only solution for progressives is to elect enough independents that mathematically, while a minority, MUST be courted by the establishment parties in order to secure their legislation. Though that won’t do anything for legislation that both establishment parties fully agree on, that’ll still get rammed through.
But what are we even talking about? These are all legal constructs. We’re living post rule of law now. Dictator just flat ignoring courts.
Yeah, that’s basically the situation in Australia. The crossbench is needed to pass anything in the Senate, but Liberals and Labour routinely join forces to pass some truly disgusting shit (most recently an election reform that would reduce funding to the smaller parties, and a takeover of one of the biggest unions in the country).
Exactly this. Stop giving the DNC money. Whenever you can send the message to the officials. No progressive platform and change? No removal of incumbents? No money. No vote.
It isn’t _just _ on us to do something. If they too don’t wanna see the fascists win, then it’s time for them to eat humble pie and realize their policies and their positions for the past 30-40 years brought this pig to prom. They have to pass the torch.
Fascism might be defeated again but it will come at the cost of neoliberalism finally dying as well. There’s very little options of anything else working.
Yeah so… uh… That kinda goes both ways. I’ve made this argument before so I’m just gonna copy paste it, but lemme just…
To change the inevitable result, which is fascism in the United States, you have to change the game in some way, and primarying incumbents and voting blue no matter who is what progressives are already doing.
Your metaphor is flawed. Opting out does not save you anything because voting doesn’t cost you anything in the first place. If you got a free bet, why wouldn’t you take it?
It’s more like we’re on a sinking ship and bailing water. The ship is going down if we don’t patch the hole, but bailing water still buys us time so that we can make more attempts to patch the hole. Except in this metaphor, bailing is something that takes maybe an hour of your time once every two years.
Dems aren’t helping the ship stay afloat. They’re stopping the people from patching the hole because they’re “powerless”. Dems and Reps aren’t the same because they’re equally as bad, they’re the same because they’re on the same team. They’re both shameless fascists.
The bet here isn’t voting; it’s elections. An election is an essentially random process where depending on the result things change either for the best or for the worst. If you somehow quantify how far America is from fascism (say, in terms of how many Republican terms it would take to go from the situation at hand to full-blown fascism) then you can model elections as a bet where you’re forced to participate and don’t get to choose your stake. Again, under this model (which should be accurate since the conditions for its application are all there) you will end up at fascism unless you change the game you’re being forced to play so the odds are in your favor rather than the fascists’. I also want to point out that this isn’t an analogy; it’s a model. I’m simply taking a principle that exists in one field, making some simplifying assumptions and applying it in another. What I outlined here isn’t a “what if” analogy; it’s one step removed from a mathematical certainty.
I have no problem with the act of voting itself. My problem is with… everything else that happens during election season. The whole idea of unity with liberals (aka Democrats) against the right is evidently a failed preposition, and the reason for that failure is specifically that the Democratic Party is invested in the game’s present state and will force you (or, more accurately, already forces you) to cooperate with them to maintain the game before you’re allowed to be “united” with them. To borrow your analogy, the Democrats are the ship’s captain, who is helping you bail water but only on the condition that you don’t patch the holes (and yes, there’s more than one). You’re not even supposed to point out that neither you nor him are patching the holes. Instead, you and the rest of the crew are supposed to just keep bailing and ignore the rising water level. And to be clear, the bailing isn’t just one thing you do every two years; that doesn’t begin to capture the opportunity cost involved. Your bailing in this analogy is voting drives, canvassing and other outreach on behalf of the Democrats; it’s political donations; it’s suppressing criticism of the DNC (attempts to get the captain to patch the damn hole) in the name of unity against the far-right. The actual voting is only the end of this long string of actions that sap energy, money and credibility from the people who would otherwise be out there actually patching the damn holes.
Okay analogy over, back to the real world. The DNC should’ve been fucking flayed alive when they tried to push a pro-genocide ex-DA on Americans, and instead all they got was progressives hushing down other progressives in the name of “unity”. I’m sure you can think of all sorts of examples of this in action, but here’s one to drive the point: the progressive reaction to the Uncommitted Movement. This was a large movement that had gained momentum in an attempt to push the DNC from proto-fascism and into the sanity, and what did they get from not even liberals, but progressives who should have been their most ardent supporters? “Hold your nose and vote for her.” Not a nationwide solidarity to force the Democrats to back down on their most unpopular policies, not even tepid support or apathy, but active, emphatic opposition. That’s not the stuff of democracy; that’s a dictatorship where you roll a dice every four years to find out which boot will step on your neck until the next election.
I should note: I’m not advocating for passivity or apathy here. This shouldn’t be a reason for you or anyone else to stay home and give up; it should be an impetus to organize, embrace solidarity between workers and take on the capitalists and their supporters. Act, but act according to your own conscience, not according to the DNC’s agenda. This is especially important right now because the Democrats won’t save you from fascism even if they wanted to, but even if democracy and the DNC both survive Trump, next time you be on the side doing the flaying and not the side practicing cannibalism on behalf of your blue donkey overlords.
This exactly. I have voted for every progressive candidate that has come up on the ballot. And yet every single time the middle of the road Democrat wins. Because that’s where the DNC puts the money. And in the general I always vote for whatever Democrat has won the primary. And quite frankly I always feel sick that I voted for somebody that I wouldn’t vote for if I had a better choice.
So I think I’m going to choose not to vote in the general if the progressive I vote for doesn’t win. I’m tired of a democratic party that is more interested in protecting their position than actually doing their job.
It couldn’t be that the middle of the road Democrat is simply popular among the majority of the voting population? Nah couldn’t be. Everybody in my family loves when I rant about the benefits of communism at Thanksgiving.
I think you should still vote just to show you’re an active voter that they failed to court, but vote for independents, 3rd party, write in, whatever.
Honestly, I think the only solution for progressives is to elect enough independents that mathematically, while a minority, MUST be courted by the establishment parties in order to secure their legislation. Though that won’t do anything for legislation that both establishment parties fully agree on, that’ll still get rammed through.
But what are we even talking about? These are all legal constructs. We’re living post rule of law now. Dictator just flat ignoring courts.
Yeah, that’s basically the situation in Australia. The crossbench is needed to pass anything in the Senate, but Liberals and Labour routinely join forces to pass some truly disgusting shit (most recently an election reform that would reduce funding to the smaller parties, and a takeover of one of the biggest unions in the country).
Like another poster said casting a blank ballet sends much more of a message than not voting at all.
Exactly this. Stop giving the DNC money. Whenever you can send the message to the officials. No progressive platform and change? No removal of incumbents? No money. No vote.
It isn’t _just _ on us to do something. If they too don’t wanna see the fascists win, then it’s time for them to eat humble pie and realize their policies and their positions for the past 30-40 years brought this pig to prom. They have to pass the torch.
Fascism might be defeated again but it will come at the cost of neoliberalism finally dying as well. There’s very little options of anything else working.