- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmit.online
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmit.online
The air traffic restrictions extended beyond Moscow, affecting Sochi, Kazan, Kirov, Nizhnekamsk, Kaluga, Volgograd, Saratov, Samara, Ivanovo, Yaroslavl, Tambov and other cities. In addition, over 30 cities in the central part of Russia experienced internet disruptions.
Airlines including Aeroflot, Rossiya, Pobeda, S7, Ural Airlines, Nordwind, NordStar and Azur Air announced flight consolidations or cancellations.
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Am I supposed to feel sorry for them? Cause I don’t.
I feel sorry for the citizens that had no choice in this war much like I feel sorry for the Americans that had no choice in the chaos and treason that Trump is committing, much like I feel sorry for the citizens in Israel who had no choice in the genocide netanyahu is carrying out.
Government does not equal the people and the only ones that deserve penance for these atrocities are the world leaders that call the shots.
OTOH, when people feel pain because of their government is when things change. (though not always for the better, it is still the only attempt we have)
I agree that this kind of violence is necessary in resistance. Im just saying i can simultaneously support Ukraine’s acts of resistance while also feeling sorry for innocent people that have no powert and don’t support it and aren’t able to escape. It’s not a zero-sum game.
I can appreciate that Americans experiencing suffering can drive revolution while still feeling sorry for them having to experience that suffering, because it shouldn’t be necessary because these things ought not to happen, but they do, and the fight against fascism often requires the spilling of blood, unfortunately.
I appreciate your thoughtful approach. I’ve pushed against the change here in the US for decades now, and it really has been pretty terrible to watch it slowly get worse and worse, to the point that we are at now, with no bottom in sight. I appreciate you recognizing the suffering of people, because you know that there are people directly affected by these delays and cancellations that are good, kind hearted people that want better for this world. Why can’t we all just get along? Because of assholes and bullies, many of whom have found there way to the tops of government.
I feel sorry for the citizens that had no choice in this war much like I feel sorry for the Americans that had no choice in the chaos and treason that Trump is committing, much like I feel sorry for the citizens in Israel who had no choice in the genocide netanyahu is carrying out.
Great examples, because they all show it’s not that simple. Trump’s ascent to power was built on decades of general bipartisan shittiness at home and abroad that was only marginally opposed by the American public, and the majority of Israeli Jews actively support the genocide in Gaza and consider propositions like Trump’s ethnic cleansing plan desirable. Similarly, there’s broad public support for imperialism in Russia (remember that Putin used the second Chechen war in his rise to power), and most Russians actually support the war against Ukraine. You can’t do shit like what your three examples are doing without public support or apathy, so the proples of those countries do in fact share the responsibility for their governments’ atrocities.
It’s not as simple as how you’re putting it though. The propaganda machine is large. The American citizens have had their education stripped for decades so they can be brainwashed. And I don’t know if you’ve ever been to Israel but their propaganda machine is also very strong (they send jewish kids from Canada and the US there for birthright trips and have attractive IDF members on these trips to indoctrinate them, and a lot end up marrying people because of it and moving to Israel, bolstering the indoctrinated population).
There are huge amounts of money being pumped into manipulating the public and quashing resistance. Do you think people in those countries leading resistances deserve to suffer? You’re probably not hearing much about them because of these propaganda machines.
It always comes down to a class war. Those in power are responsible for the manipulation and the propaganda, and those in poverty are always left with no power to stop these things from happening, and that is completely by design.
Of course some violence is necessary in resistance, I don’t operate without nuance. Whether all that suffering is deserved is up for question. I’m not actively opposing Ukraine bombing Russia because violence is necessary in resistance, but I don’t think all the people suffering deserve it. Especially the working class who have no power by design.
Also to add, Trump didn’t win the popular vote, he only won it after extreme voter suppression, so no a majority of Americans didn’t actually have a choice because their votes were not counted, and I suspect similar in Netanyahu’s case. And we all know that Putin is a dictator and Russia is not a democracy. These people didn’t have a choice, they had the illusion of choice. Some people supported them, yes, nazis deserve to suffer, but i don’t think those who had their votes thrown out to “win” an election deserve suffering, but i hope their suffering drives change.
The American citizens have had their education stripped for decades so they can be brainwashed. And I don’t know if you’ve ever been to Israel but their propaganda machine is also very strong (they send jewish kids from Canada and the US there for birthright trips and have attractive IDF members on these trips to indoctrinate them, and a lot end up marrying people because of it and moving to Israel, bolstering the indoctrinated population).
Okay if someone can be indoctrinated into believing brown people should be bombed to oblivion they’re a shitty person, full stop. Americans already know the shit Biden was funding in Gaza and yet nothing happened.
Do you think people in those countries leading resistances deserve to suffer?
No, but I’m certainly not going to shed too many tears for but everyone else.
You’re probably not hearing much about them because of these propaganda machines.
Partially yes, but partially because there are simply not that many of them. You should look at polls in Israel asking about how Israelis feel about the war. It’s very damning.
I’m not actively opposing Ukraine bombing Russia because violence is necessary in resistance, but I don’t think all the people suffering deserve it. Especially the working class who have no power by design.
In the Russian case some nuance is deserved because Russia is a dictatorship, but still the fact remains that the war has broad popular support, which gives Putin a free hand in the war. People who don’t want any of this of course don’t deserve it, but that’s a minority.
Also to add, Trump didn’t win the popular vote, he only won it after extreme voter suppression, so no a majority of Americans didn’t actually have a choice because their votes were not counted,
Oh I’m not only counting Republicans here. Liberals who sat on their asses doing nothing to make things better and screaming “hold your nose and vote for her” at anyone trying to suggest that maybe having two pro-genocide candidates is a bad idea are equally to blame in my book.
and I suspect similar in Netanyahu’s case.
The Israeli people hate Netanyahu, but they hate them for his corruption, not the war. They still support the war; they just want to have a functional democratic society while they commit genocide against Gazans. Look at this shit and you’ll see what I mean.
The biggest problem i have with this way of thinking is that the first people that experience these struggles are the most vulnerable, the trans people, the disabled, the brown people you speak of. I understand you don’t care if the politically apathetic suffer, but the problem is that they are usually the last to suffer, that’s why they are politically apathetic, they have the privilege to be.
We don’t get to pick and choose who suffers. And the people suffering right now are the people we should be trying to protect. The people you’re wishing suffering on, for the most part, are not really suffering yet. We’re still in the first few lines of the “first they came for” poem.
Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying I want the people in these to suffer as an end in and of itself (though I will take the opportunity to enjoy the schadenfreude); I’m just saying that we shouldn’t trick ourselves into believing this is the result of a minority forcing their desires on an unwilling majority. That matters, among other things, because it means that more radical change is needed than “remove the bad guy and replace him with a good guy”. Many people here act like if Putin/Trump/Netanyahu disappeared Russia/America/Israel would stop being an active force of evil, but that’s simply not the case, so I’m trying to push back against that myth.
Yeah fair enough, I’m probably being autistic about this and maybe taking literally what you meant hyperbolically. In any respect I don’t want to fall into a semantic argument circle-jerk lol
I think i understand what you meant now and I dont think what we believe is all that different anyway
You can’t say whether Russians in Russia support the war, because it’s illegal to not do it. It is inheritly impossible to get a real answer to a question “do you support the government position or do you want to go to jail”
I mean you can; you just have to do anonymous polling, which is probably what the people in the source did since 20% have consistently answered no since the start of the war.
No you can’t. You absolutely can’t, and every Russian knows that there is no such thing as an anonymous poll. Those 20% are the miracle and statistical wonder.
It is so ingrained in the Russian psyche, even in 2012 when the situation was way more clear and safe, 9 in 10 people straight up refused to talk with pollers about politics, and half of those who didn’t responded only in yeses and were quite uncomfortable with the situation.
If you spend a second reading what the remaining social institutions in Russia are saying, you will be both horrified, and disillusioned with all those polls floating around. It’s a nightmarish vacuum out there, they have zero fucking idea hoe many people are there, the estimations are “give or take 50 millions”, the idea that there is a poll that can say anything definitive is laughableAlso knowing russian and playing on servers with russians.
But westerners would spend decades in psych wards after understanding what the most vocal russian gamers reply to slava ukraina.
“Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed in his name, and with the means which he helps to supply, because he will not trouble himself to use his mind on the subject.”
Do I personally blame them, no, but that does not absolve them.
You’ll like this related quote from the good Dr. MLK:
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
And for anyone interested, the economist podcast: Next year in Moscow
Shows what some Russians are willing to do against the war and gives some great context.
The Behind the Bastards episodes on How nice normal people made the holocaust possible. Part 2
But look on the bright side, Russia: At least it saved passengers from foolishly getting on a plane in Russia, the airworthiness of which is dubious at best these days.
Also probably saved some pollution.
Good point, though I somehow suspect that isn’t a major Russian priority in general.
Rich people in US fly private…
Fuck Russia but wtf is this even supposed to mean?
Russia is a petrostate the shaky economy of which is notoriously reliant on keeping oil and gas flowing. I have no idea why you’re bringing the US into this - I certainly didn’t.
US is number 1 oil producer and exporter?
You responded to a non sequitur with another non sequitur to which I added context.
Yes and? I don’t think the US have environmentalism as a priority right now either and for much the same reasons, but that wasn’t the country being talked about in this thread.
Shame the Ukrainians could deliver the Muscovites, in the airport, a dose of their own medicine. Zero sympathy and GTFO of Ukraine.
Is there any action the Russian govt could take to alleviate this scenario…? Anything at all?
Perhaps a special military operation?
Womp womp.
Cool
