What is the point of of wanting to prevent those who do not share your religion from celebrating their holidays? There is a national secular holiday called Christmas and a religious holiday called Christmas, how does the existence of one cause problems for the other? Are other secular holidays like the 4th of July or Veterans Day also a problem? Is this something similar to Christians having a problem with the secular legal contract called marriage being allowed alongside the religious ceremony and oath called marriage?
Christmas is a pagan holiday to celebrate the winter solstice. Traditional puritans banned Christmas in the 1500. Right around the time they were burning witches
The winter solstice is on the 21st of December, not the 25th. The dating of Christmas has nothing to do with it.
Christmas is the date it is because it is 9 months (human gestation period) after the Feast of the Annunciation (25th of March) which gets it’s date from an old attributed date of Jesus’ death.
In fact, the reason the UK tax date is in March is for the same reason - the new year was the Annunciation. Then 12 days difference due to the Julian/Gregorian shift.
Edit:
Also, the link you provided debunks your own claim-
The popular theory that Christians chose Dec. 25 to co-opt the pagan solstice festival of Sol Invictus is not based on strong evidence but on the margin scribblings of an unnamed Syrian monk in the 12th century.
You’d make a good American Evangelical by the way you take the Bible out of context.
Christmas trees started as a German tradition where trees were decorated in September with Eucharist Hosts to represent the Tree of Life in Eden, for celebrating Creationtide. As time went on and the tradition travelled, it eventually was used for Christmas.
The firm evidence we have is Martin Luther adding candles to a tree (Wikipedia source). That same article goes over two probable origins for the tree:
Paradise trees, as your linked YT video explains
Vikings and Saxons worshipped trees, and that custom often survived conversion to Christianity
This is particularly interesting:
Tree worship was common among the pagan Europeans and survived their conversion to Christianity in the Scandinavian customs of decorating the house and barn with evergreens at the New Year to scare away the devil and of setting up a tree for the birds during Christmas time."
…
The Vikings and Saxons worshiped trees. The story of Saint Boniface cutting down Donar’s Oak illustrates the pagan practices in 8th century among the Germans. A later folk version of the story adds the detail that an evergreen tree grew in place of the felled oak, telling them about how its triangular shape reminds humanity of the Trinity and how it points to heaven.
I think they borrowed from each other. I think pagan converts were adorning their houses with evergreen boughs long before the Paradise Plays and feast of Adam and Eve around the 12th century.
Here’s what could be a rough sequence of events:
Pagans worship trees and adorn their houses with evergreen boughs
Catholic missionaries spread Christianity across Europe
Early Christian converts retain many of their ccustoms while starting to incorporate Christian customs
Catholic church seeks to replace pagan observances with Christian ones (e.g. Christmas being on Dec 25 was likely to replace pagan celebrations at the time)
A mix of 3 & 4 results in evergreen trees being used as Paradise Trees in the 12th century, which evolves into Christmas trees by the 16th century
That’s why I say the custom came from paganism. But obviously history is much more complicated.
Except in the 1500s, paganism was generally long gone- at that time, there was no point in placating it. The UK was under a lot of German and french influence, and less so nordic influence. Something as open and humanly universal as “pagans were bringing plants into the house” doesn’t necessarily mean Christmas trees are of pagan origin. Just that pagans brought plants into the house. (With that logic- is putting some flowers out on the table paganism?)
Your timeline at 4 is wrong - Christmas was celebrated as early as the second century. Hyppolitus mentioned it and it’s also mentioned in the Epistle of Theophilus.
Yes, Christmas being on Dec 25 was much earlier, I merely used it as an example of Christians co-opting pagan rituals/observances into Christian ones.
Christianity took much longer to reach the Germanic states, so I’m suggesting something similar happened w/ Christmas trees when Christianity spread there. AFAIK, Christmas trees were not a thing until well after the second century association of Dec 25 w/ Christmas, and the Paradise Tree was only really documented centuries after Christianity spread to Germanic states. So there’s a lot of room for things to have developed from old pagan traditions.
I’m sorry, but your first claim, that Christmas is a co-opting of a pagan holiday (Sol Invictus) is just plain wrong. It predates Sol Invictus. Emperor Aurelian established Sol Invictus as a holiday in 274 AD.
Hippolytus of Rome (d. 235 AD) claimed Jesus was born 8 days before the Kalends of January, which corresponds to Dec. 25. It is vastly more likely, and much more widely accepted at this point, that Dec. 25 was chosen because Africanus (author of Chronographiae, an early attempt at a Christian timeline) and other early Christians believed the Annunciation was March 25. They just added 9 months to that and bam, December 25.
If anything was intentional about the 25th in particular, it would’ve been due to contemporary Jewish beliefs that Prohpets died on the same day they are born or conceived. Believing that Jesus was conceived on the 25th of March, the parallel 25th of December would not only have been chronologically accurate, but spiritually significant.
These early Christians existed well before the establishment of Christianity as the Roman state religion. There was a substantial desire to distance themselves from Pagan practice at the time. Virtually all sources that it relates to Saturnalia and Sol Invictus, outside of a single margin note in the 12th century, are post-enlightenment.
Edit to address Easter eggs, in particular:
Undeniably the symbology of the egg as representing life and death predates Christianity. Frankly, it predates the Roman religion too. It’s more likely that eggs came from Persian cultural practices, spread to middle eastern churches, then gradually migrated west.
That’s just how culture works and I honestly don’t see what the point of bringing it up is. Only the most simple-minded evangelicals would be scared of what amounts to adiaphora.
Are we obliged to belive that every religious practice from every religion ought to have been instituted specifically by its God? Religion is for us, even most religious people will tell you that. Islamic prayer forms are derived from Coptic Christians, Jewish and Christian thought intermingled; Hindu, Sikh, and Buddhist thought has at various points cross-pollinated in fascinating ways.
I truly believe more non-religious people should read David Bentley Hart’s Experience of God. I think, if you can put up with his snark and dense prose, it would help a lot to understand what it actually means to believe in a God, rather than bottom dollar examples like rural evangelicals and Islamic extremists.
As far as Christmas trees go, the fact that we do not see a single example of one until the 15th century, leaves me confident that their adoption wasn’t related to co-opting ppaganism. European Paganism was dead and buried by then. Any practices that remained would’ve been perceived as cultural. The Christmas Tree probably had more to do with wealthy Protestants trying to distinguish themselves from Catholic Christmas traditions more than anything else.
Heck, the Vatican refused to put up a tree until the 1980s. That rivalry runs deep.
You seriously misread that if you think it’s about Christmas trees in anything but maybe an abstract way. It’s about wooden idols. Who tf is chiseling their Christmas trees into shapes? I thought maybe this would be about Asherah poles or something at least kind of similar but this is a pretty obvious passage about idolatry.
Which there are none
Do you honestly think Jesus was born on December 25? And that Santa and all his elves were there?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjxGvyPAY5A
The truth is, Xmas evolved from the Roman holiday Saturnalia…
Glorious username
Dunno how the date Christmas is celebrated is relevant, or the character surrounding St Nicholas
Okay, so how about the elves? The reindeer? The holly and mistletoe? The tree?
Not related to the Christian holiday of Christmas, they’re secular
At least you’re better than most Jesus freaks who try to square the circle and say holly stands for Jesus or something.
So when should they have the secular Christmas special which is the holiday most people celebrate?
Just don’t have it
Ah yes, the “no fun allowed” stance that is so successful
Also, isn’t Easter more important? Everybody is born but only one primate came back to life, which is the important part.
Theologians have debated that one. I recently attended a service where the minister argued for Good Friday being more important.
Christmas is the Incarnation - so it’s like arguing over the most important part of a purchase.
Christmas - money put on the table Good Friday - money taken Easter - Receipt printed
What is the point of of wanting to prevent those who do not share your religion from celebrating their holidays? There is a national secular holiday called Christmas and a religious holiday called Christmas, how does the existence of one cause problems for the other? Are other secular holidays like the 4th of July or Veterans Day also a problem? Is this something similar to Christians having a problem with the secular legal contract called marriage being allowed alongside the religious ceremony and oath called marriage?
They’re cringe
Jesus was actually born in the summer time. https://people.howstuffworks.com/when-was-jesus-born.htm
Christmas is a pagan holiday to celebrate the winter solstice. Traditional puritans banned Christmas in the 1500. Right around the time they were burning witches
The winter solstice is on the 21st of December, not the 25th. The dating of Christmas has nothing to do with it.
Christmas is the date it is because it is 9 months (human gestation period) after the Feast of the Annunciation (25th of March) which gets it’s date from an old attributed date of Jesus’ death.
In fact, the reason the UK tax date is in March is for the same reason - the new year was the Annunciation. Then 12 days difference due to the Julian/Gregorian shift.
Edit:
Also, the link you provided debunks your own claim-
And once again echoes what I said
After the equinox, the sun “dies” for 3 days, then starts returning (25th). I read it on the internet.
21+3 is 24.
After the equinox so 22+3=25
I dunno I just wanted to be included in the dumb argument
Wouldn’t make sense for it to hang after the equinox - wouldn’t it start hanging before with the equinox as it’s peak?
Where did Christians get the decorating of a tree?
Jeremiah 10:1-5 even talks against making an idol out of a tree.
It can mean something different to you today, but it is not biblical. And certainly not about Christmas.
You’d make a good American Evangelical by the way you take the Bible out of context.
Christmas trees started as a German tradition where trees were decorated in September with Eucharist Hosts to represent the Tree of Life in Eden, for celebrating Creationtide. As time went on and the tradition travelled, it eventually was used for Christmas.
I’m pretty sure the idea came from Nordic pagans bringing in evergreen boughs in the winter.
you’re completely wrong
The firm evidence we have is Martin Luther adding candles to a tree (Wikipedia source). That same article goes over two probable origins for the tree:
This is particularly interesting:
This article puts the origin of the Paradise Tree around the 12th century, whereas the above quotes point to earlier traditions.
I think they borrowed from each other. I think pagan converts were adorning their houses with evergreen boughs long before the Paradise Plays and feast of Adam and Eve around the 12th century.
Here’s what could be a rough sequence of events:
That’s why I say the custom came from paganism. But obviously history is much more complicated.
Except in the 1500s, paganism was generally long gone- at that time, there was no point in placating it. The UK was under a lot of German and french influence, and less so nordic influence. Something as open and humanly universal as “pagans were bringing plants into the house” doesn’t necessarily mean Christmas trees are of pagan origin. Just that pagans brought plants into the house. (With that logic- is putting some flowers out on the table paganism?)
Your timeline at 4 is wrong - Christmas was celebrated as early as the second century. Hyppolitus mentioned it and it’s also mentioned in the Epistle of Theophilus.
Yes, Christmas being on Dec 25 was much earlier, I merely used it as an example of Christians co-opting pagan rituals/observances into Christian ones.
Christianity took much longer to reach the Germanic states, so I’m suggesting something similar happened w/ Christmas trees when Christianity spread there. AFAIK, Christmas trees were not a thing until well after the second century association of Dec 25 w/ Christmas, and the Paradise Tree was only really documented centuries after Christianity spread to Germanic states. So there’s a lot of room for things to have developed from old pagan traditions.
I’m sorry, but your first claim, that Christmas is a co-opting of a pagan holiday (Sol Invictus) is just plain wrong. It predates Sol Invictus. Emperor Aurelian established Sol Invictus as a holiday in 274 AD.
Hippolytus of Rome (d. 235 AD) claimed Jesus was born 8 days before the Kalends of January, which corresponds to Dec. 25. It is vastly more likely, and much more widely accepted at this point, that Dec. 25 was chosen because Africanus (author of Chronographiae, an early attempt at a Christian timeline) and other early Christians believed the Annunciation was March 25. They just added 9 months to that and bam, December 25.
If anything was intentional about the 25th in particular, it would’ve been due to contemporary Jewish beliefs that Prohpets died on the same day they are born or conceived. Believing that Jesus was conceived on the 25th of March, the parallel 25th of December would not only have been chronologically accurate, but spiritually significant.
These early Christians existed well before the establishment of Christianity as the Roman state religion. There was a substantial desire to distance themselves from Pagan practice at the time. Virtually all sources that it relates to Saturnalia and Sol Invictus, outside of a single margin note in the 12th century, are post-enlightenment.
Edit to address Easter eggs, in particular: Undeniably the symbology of the egg as representing life and death predates Christianity. Frankly, it predates the Roman religion too. It’s more likely that eggs came from Persian cultural practices, spread to middle eastern churches, then gradually migrated west.
That’s just how culture works and I honestly don’t see what the point of bringing it up is. Only the most simple-minded evangelicals would be scared of what amounts to adiaphora.
Are we obliged to belive that every religious practice from every religion ought to have been instituted specifically by its God? Religion is for us, even most religious people will tell you that. Islamic prayer forms are derived from Coptic Christians, Jewish and Christian thought intermingled; Hindu, Sikh, and Buddhist thought has at various points cross-pollinated in fascinating ways.
I truly believe more non-religious people should read David Bentley Hart’s Experience of God. I think, if you can put up with his snark and dense prose, it would help a lot to understand what it actually means to believe in a God, rather than bottom dollar examples like rural evangelicals and Islamic extremists.
As far as Christmas trees go, the fact that we do not see a single example of one until the 15th century, leaves me confident that their adoption wasn’t related to co-opting ppaganism. European Paganism was dead and buried by then. Any practices that remained would’ve been perceived as cultural. The Christmas Tree probably had more to do with wealthy Protestants trying to distinguish themselves from Catholic Christmas traditions more than anything else.
Heck, the Vatican refused to put up a tree until the 1980s. That rivalry runs deep.
You seriously misread that if you think it’s about Christmas trees in anything but maybe an abstract way. It’s about wooden idols. Who tf is chiseling their Christmas trees into shapes? I thought maybe this would be about Asherah poles or something at least kind of similar but this is a pretty obvious passage about idolatry.