My initial reaction to this headline was: “what now?”, and my first reaction on reading the article was “oh, it’s a continuation of the horror show that calls itself US government - not actually something that four democrats are responsible for”
So I’m totally with you. Stop the sanewashing of the continued and systematic madness rising to ever new heights of depravity, should be the headline.
Republicans built the foundation for what’s happening now for decades, and it was always like you said in your other comment: “Conservatives have survived on their ability to never be held accountable for what they do.” Well, slightly more differentiated.
This bill is yet another voter supression tool. This is what they ultimately want: you have to be rich, male, of a certain ethic, and “white” to have a say. And they’re almost there. If voting was really made easy for everyone, do you really think the GOP would still win?
This is yet another piece of codified and systemic racism, misogyny, homo- and transphobia, richism.
The hollowing out of what was once a working, relatively democratic system to a point where even the empty shell is starting to break up.
All that said, Democrats should start wielding what power they have (both in the government and in media, public opinion etc.) way more decisively. Between elections we must talk about how fucked up both parties are.
People expect the representative they voted for to vote how they want. Conservatives’ representative voted as they wanted. Whereas Democrats’ representative voted against their wishes. Hence the outrage.
This is a simplistic explanation, 4 Democratic representative might have voted as their constituents have demanded.
I’d bet most conservative women didn’t vote to have their ability to vote taken away as well. Having to have a “real ID” license accepted in every state not be accepted to vote is pure ridiculousness.
Based on what I hear on local news, Perez at least probably is doing what her constituents want. She won a very red district as a Democrat by appealing to the people in her district. I don’t like her vote, but I get it.
Everyone expects the scorpion to stab the frog, it’s in its nature.
Everyone expects Republicans to be totally corrupt monsters.
The people we are supposed to depend on to fight monsters keep helping them pass bills when they could be blocking them.
This means they are complicit. There’s always enough traitors to make the bad things pass, never enough cooperation to make the good things pass when they have a majority.
The Democrats have been playing this game for too long and it’s saf you haven’t started to notice too.
Easier to paste my response to someone else that responded with the same thing:
I have a hard time accepting that just because, conserves are being conservatives, it’s seemingly fine that they do this shit. We’ll just all be outraged at the audacity of four idiot democrats that voted in lock-step with them.
All of them need to be held accountable. ALL of them.
But here, when all I see are people ignoring the villains, it makes me wonder why I ever bothered to question how we got here.
Conservatives have survived on their ability to never be held accountable for what they do. And seeing everyone focused on holding four democrats responsible for their joint effort with 16 conservatives and not even mentioning the assholes that drew this up to begin with-
I guess it all makes more sense now how thoroughly we are fucked.
It’s my fucking party that I’m a fucking registered member of. Don’t tell me I can’t be madder at them for literally stabbing me in the back instead of fighting my opposition like they were supposed to do.
It’s a perfectly justified reaction to be madder at betrayal. Don’t be a clueless moron.
lol… okay. You can be “madder” at them all you want. Blame the democrats and not the conservatives that drew up the bill and unanimously passed it. Be my guest.
You’re only falling for the exact thing that has enabled them to continue doing shit like this to begin with.
It’s meritless because it makes assumptions to prove a point.
And if you look back, YOU jumped into this discussion being defensive as if I was talking to you directly, then you go on to play the victim of shit I didn’t even say.
If you want to think this is on the democrats because four of them voted along with 216 conservatives that not only voted for it- but drafted it to begin with, be my guest.
I’m simply asking for the reasoning.
And since not one fucking person stepped up with any reasoning without personally attacking me for asking- I’m left to think that there really isn’t any reasoning amongst any of you to begin with.
Except that’s not what’s happening. The Republicans voted like you’d expect them to vote, hence not news. The so-called Democrats betrayed what their voters expected of them.
Same reason it’s new when a small number of Republicans voted against the rest of the party and Trump.
Everyone already knows all the republicans supported it; anything under their jurisdiction is already a lost cause. What I want to know is how many people from the “left” party can’t even keep their own votes on the right side of history. It’s not news when villains are villains - it’s news when the people who say they’re here to fight back against the villains are caught supporting them, and it’s important not to drown out that important detail among a bunch of already-known regressives. People need to see that the current democratic party isn’t a viable defense against conservativism, and that we need to do something more to get things moving in the right direction again than simply trusting democrats to fix everything.
This is exactly the trick that has got us to this point, and you are giving the average news consumer way too much credit.
Yes, democrats being villains on this is novel and republicans being villains is not, but news reports bias our attention and skew reality. Viewers who are only exposed to this unconsciously end up completely turned around, saying in general democrats are the problem. This is how we end up with elections where voters stay home. And young people have internalized the disproportionate criticism of democrats, and that is probably helping give right-wing influencers credibility.
Objective and credible news should NOT just report on what’s novel. They should report on proportional responsibility.
I get what you’re saying… but have a hard time accepting that just because, conserves are being conservatives, it’s seemingly fine that they do villain-shit. We’ll just be outraged at the audacity of four idiot democrats that voted in lock-step with them.
ALL of them need to be held accountable.
But here, when all I see are people ignoring the villains, it makes me wonder why I ever bothered to question how we got here.
Conservatives have survived on their ability to never be held accountable for what they do. And seeing everyone focused on holding four democrats responsible for their joint effort with 16 conservatives and not even mentioning the assholes that drew this up to begin with-
I guess it all makes more sense now how thoroughly we are fucked.
I’ll digress and simplify it for you since you seem to be having trouble:
I find it strange how here on lemmy, whenever something happens, any time a democrat is involved in the slightest- whatever bad happened, it’s entirely blamed on the democrats, regardless of the fact that it wouldn’t have even happened to begin with had it not been for conservatives.
Further simplification:
• A bill is drafted- by conservatives
• 216 conservatives vote for it
• 4 democrats vote for it
You: “See? We told you! All of the democrats are evil!”
Or is it every time (cuz there are countless times) people get mad at Dems for failing just enough to enable the Republicans some copy pastin breathless newbie to politics comes in with copypasta defending them?
I’d prefer to go with what’s empirically provable vs. some random shit you came up with because you can’t be seen to be proven wrong about something- in an argument with someone that you need to assume shit about in order to look like you know what you’re saying.
And “breathless newbie”?
Hilarious! You know nothing about me, therefore, you don’t get to make edits to who I am.
Now… You’re just going to have to be okay with all of this and move on, alright?
We’re done talking now. Enjoy that ever-important last word you seem to always have to have.
Is this bait to get me to respond after I said this discussion is over, or do you need someone to help you understand that nowhere in my comment did I say that I was blocking you.
I simply said we’re done discussing it because you’re not here in good faith. You just like to debate troll people and it’s not worth my time.
What do Democrats have to do with the left? Especially the Democrats in question.
Establishment Democrats have shived the left a million times and I never hear this pearl clutching about how they are “dividing the left” from folks like you. When a progressive primaries a corporate Democrat we get told that we shouldn’t mess with incumbents. When a corporate Democrat challenges a seated progressive, the establishment pumps tens of thousands of dollars into the challengers campaign.
We aren’t “dividing the left”, we are acknowledging a divide between the left and third way neoliberals. Establishment candidates want our votes and especially our donations, but then they want us to sit down and shut up.
Neoliberalism is not a left of center political philosophy. We have to right of center parties and a moderately left of center population. That’s why the Democrats are always referred to as the lesser of two evils.
Huh? What center are we talking about? Democrats are left of Republicans (marginally before Trump, but still) but the center of office holders is a pointless measure. Issue by issue the Democrats are solidly to the right of the vast majority of the US population.
but the center of office holders is a pointless measure
da fuq? It’s the definition of “center”. It’s the literal way we measure political leanings.
Issue by issue the Democrats are solidly to the right of the vast majority of the US population.
One problem is that when it comes to individual issues, Americans are fairly to the left of Democrats. But when it comes to politicians or broad policies, Americans are to the RIGHT of Democrats. The American voting population is stupid, and they don’t consider individual issues (and in most cases, never vote on them via ballot measures etc). Also, a lot of policies are given the broad label of “reform”, and Americans have very different ideas of what “reform” means. “Immigration reform” could mean anything from an open border policy to immediate execution of any illegal immigrants. Most Americans support “reform” though.
So, half of the Taliban is left wing? Half of the third Reich was left wing? No, the center of office holders is not how we measure political leanings. You can go with political theory that defines left and right in a pretty fixed way, or you can go by the center of the population. By either of those standards, the Democrats are moderate right wing.
There is nothing particularly “stupid” about Americans. They are just flawed humans, and there is a reason for the mismatch between where they fall on issues and where they fall on (let’s call them) themes. The themes come from the narratives they receive from our two right wing parties. Ask them about particular issues and they think like individuals. Ask them about themes and they line up with the narratives coming to them from our two right wing parties.
Calling people who voted to disenfranchise millions the 'left" is an insult.
Havent you heard the term “It goes without saying”? I just don’t need to tell you that the sun rises in the east, 2+2=4, or Republicans are evil. But apparently, some of you insist on giving a pass to Democrats, who act like they’re on our side, but continually help make things worse.
The point is that it’s all kayfabe and just enough Democrats will vote to make things worse or prevent something from getting better. If you only blame Republicans, you’re not paying attention.
Funny how you people always conflate “not having the numbers to effectively stop Republicans” with “actively helping Republicans”. Every single time I drill down to ask what specifically the Dems did to make things worse, it’s always “they failed to stop the Republicans”.
I guess you’re confused because you aren’t listening.
THEY VOTED FOR THE BILL.
Voting for a bill is actively helping Republicans. Do you need to watch Schoolhouse Rock again?
what specifically the Dems did to make things worse
THEY VOTED FOR THE BILL.
Absolutely nobody here is mad that Democrats “failed to stop Republicans”. You need to stop being disingenuous. We’re mad because THEY VOTED FOR THE BILL.
And we circle back around to “Democrats did a bad thing” instead of “a tiny number of Democrats went against the wishes of the party and joined all of the Republicans to do a bad thing”
Propaganda.
“The Democrats” did not vote for this bill and implying so is fucking. Propaganda.
So, what is the party going to do about it? If the answer is nothing, then the party itself shares the blame. Republicans enforce party discipline while Democrats use a lack of party discipline as an excuse.
Neoliberalism is proto fascism. Fascism is where the Democrats have led us. They are not anti-authoritarian, they are just not as authoritarian as the fascists.
“Four democrats passed this,” but we are just going to ignore the 216 conservatives that passed it?
So when do we get to start calling bullshit like this propaganda?
“man bites dog” vs “dog bites man”
We all know what the Republicans unanimously stand for. Apparently some democrats do too, and that’s worth noting.
My initial reaction to this headline was: “what now?”, and my first reaction on reading the article was “oh, it’s a continuation of the horror show that calls itself US government - not actually something that four democrats are responsible for”
So I’m totally with you. Stop the sanewashing of the continued and systematic madness rising to ever new heights of depravity, should be the headline.
Republicans built the foundation for what’s happening now for decades, and it was always like you said in your other comment: “Conservatives have survived on their ability to never be held accountable for what they do.” Well, slightly more differentiated.
This bill is yet another voter supression tool. This is what they ultimately want: you have to be rich, male, of a certain ethic, and “white” to have a say. And they’re almost there. If voting was really made easy for everyone, do you really think the GOP would still win?
This is yet another piece of codified and systemic racism, misogyny, homo- and transphobia, richism.
The hollowing out of what was once a working, relatively democratic system to a point where even the empty shell is starting to break up.
All that said, Democrats should start wielding what power they have (both in the government and in media, public opinion etc.) way more decisively. Between elections we must talk about how fucked up both parties are.
This comment (from this post) puts it best imho:
https://lemmy.world/comment/16414382
https://feddit.org/post/10702307/6001640
People expect the representative they voted for to vote how they want. Conservatives’ representative voted as they wanted. Whereas Democrats’ representative voted against their wishes. Hence the outrage.
This is a simplistic explanation, 4 Democratic representative might have voted as their constituents have demanded.
I’d bet most conservative women didn’t vote to have their ability to vote taken away as well. Having to have a “real ID” license accepted in every state not be accepted to vote is pure ridiculousness.
Based on what I hear on local news, Perez at least probably is doing what her constituents want. She won a very red district as a Democrat by appealing to the people in her district. I don’t like her vote, but I get it.
Everyone expects the scorpion to stab the frog, it’s in its nature.
Everyone expects Republicans to be totally corrupt monsters.
The people we are supposed to depend on to fight monsters keep helping them pass bills when they could be blocking them.
This means they are complicit. There’s always enough traitors to make the bad things pass, never enough cooperation to make the good things pass when they have a majority.
The Democrats have been playing this game for too long and it’s saf you haven’t started to notice too.
Easier to paste my response to someone else that responded with the same thing:
I have a hard time accepting that just because, conserves are being conservatives, it’s seemingly fine that they do this shit. We’ll just all be outraged at the audacity of four idiot democrats that voted in lock-step with them.
All of them need to be held accountable. ALL of them.
But here, when all I see are people ignoring the villains, it makes me wonder why I ever bothered to question how we got here.
Conservatives have survived on their ability to never be held accountable for what they do. And seeing everyone focused on holding four democrats responsible for their joint effort with 16 conservatives and not even mentioning the assholes that drew this up to begin with-
I guess it all makes more sense now how thoroughly we are fucked.
It’s totally Democrats fault.
It’s my fucking party that I’m a fucking registered member of. Don’t tell me I can’t be madder at them for literally stabbing me in the back instead of fighting my opposition like they were supposed to do.
It’s a perfectly justified reaction to be madder at betrayal. Don’t be a clueless moron.
lol… okay. You can be “madder” at them all you want. Blame the democrats and not the conservatives that drew up the bill and unanimously passed it. Be my guest.
You’re only falling for the exact thing that has enabled them to continue doing shit like this to begin with.
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Why is it they so many of you can’t ever debate a topic without telling someone who they are, what they do, or what they think?
Nothing at all about what you said is remotely accurate. And your little ‘what if’ scenario is laughably ignorant and meritless.
The next time, maybe try having an argument that carries weight instead of personal attacks and wildly inaccurate assumptions.
Jesus indeed.
You mean like how you go around telling people they don’t blame Republicans if they point out something Democrats do?
I’m not telling you who you are, you are telling me who you are. Tell me how my hypothetical is not appropriate?
That’s not how debating works. You don’t take my analogy and say “that’s meritless.” You prove it to be meritless.
See let me spell it out for you like it’s a standardized test.
In my analogy:
Burglar :: Republican
Cops :: Democrats
Dog :: My trust
Shooting :: voting against my interest
Is that clearer for you?
It’s meritless because it makes assumptions to prove a point.
And if you look back, YOU jumped into this discussion being defensive as if I was talking to you directly, then you go on to play the victim of shit I didn’t even say.
If you want to think this is on the democrats because four of them voted along with 216 conservatives that not only voted for it- but drafted it to begin with, be my guest.
I’m simply asking for the reasoning.
And since not one fucking person stepped up with any reasoning without personally attacking me for asking- I’m left to think that there really isn’t any reasoning amongst any of you to begin with.
So someone can’t write an article about the four of them? Are there no other articles just reporting the decision? Should we not know?
So many posts on here just blaming the right. Should there be none on how some Dems are not voting for the people?
Except that’s not what’s happening. The Republicans voted like you’d expect them to vote, hence not news. The so-called Democrats betrayed what their voters expected of them.
Same reason it’s new when a small number of Republicans voted against the rest of the party and Trump.
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Removed by mod
I did vote, you are choosing to fall for propaganda that was desigend to make you hate young and poor people.
If you voted for the Democrats, then my post wasn’t directed at you.
When you reply to my comments it is directed at me
Blocked troll
byeeeee
Everyone already knows all the republicans supported it; anything under their jurisdiction is already a lost cause. What I want to know is how many people from the “left” party can’t even keep their own votes on the right side of history. It’s not news when villains are villains - it’s news when the people who say they’re here to fight back against the villains are caught supporting them, and it’s important not to drown out that important detail among a bunch of already-known regressives. People need to see that the current democratic party isn’t a viable defense against conservativism, and that we need to do something more to get things moving in the right direction again than simply trusting democrats to fix everything.
This is exactly the trick that has got us to this point, and you are giving the average news consumer way too much credit.
Yes, democrats being villains on this is novel and republicans being villains is not, but news reports bias our attention and skew reality. Viewers who are only exposed to this unconsciously end up completely turned around, saying in general democrats are the problem. This is how we end up with elections where voters stay home. And young people have internalized the disproportionate criticism of democrats, and that is probably helping give right-wing influencers credibility.
Objective and credible news should NOT just report on what’s novel. They should report on proportional responsibility.
I get what you’re saying… but have a hard time accepting that just because, conserves are being conservatives, it’s seemingly fine that they do villain-shit. We’ll just be outraged at the audacity of four idiot democrats that voted in lock-step with them.
ALL of them need to be held accountable.
But here, when all I see are people ignoring the villains, it makes me wonder why I ever bothered to question how we got here.
Conservatives have survived on their ability to never be held accountable for what they do. And seeing everyone focused on holding four democrats responsible for their joint effort with 16 conservatives and not even mentioning the assholes that drew this up to begin with-
I guess it all makes more sense now how thoroughly we are fucked.
It’s totally Democrats fault.
Stop copy pastin this slop its barely coherent
And what I said is slop?
I’ll digress and simplify it for you since you seem to be having trouble:
I find it strange how here on lemmy, whenever something happens, any time a democrat is involved in the slightest- whatever bad happened, it’s entirely blamed on the democrats, regardless of the fact that it wouldn’t have even happened to begin with had it not been for conservatives.
Further simplification:
• A bill is drafted- by conservatives
• 216 conservatives vote for it
• 4 democrats vote for it
You: “See? We told you! All of the democrats are evil!”
Or is it every time (cuz there are countless times) people get mad at Dems for failing just enough to enable the Republicans some copy pastin breathless newbie to politics comes in with copypasta defending them?
Hmmmmmm 🤔
I’d prefer to go with what’s empirically provable vs. some random shit you came up with because you can’t be seen to be proven wrong about something- in an argument with someone that you need to assume shit about in order to look like you know what you’re saying.
And “breathless newbie”?
Hilarious! You know nothing about me, therefore, you don’t get to make edits to who I am.
Now… You’re just going to have to be okay with all of this and move on, alright?
We’re done talking now. Enjoy that ever-important last word you seem to always have to have.
Im blocked already? Man what a whirlwind
Is this bait to get me to respond after I said this discussion is over, or do you need someone to help you understand that nowhere in my comment did I say that I was blocking you.
I simply said we’re done discussing it because you’re not here in good faith. You just like to debate troll people and it’s not worth my time.
Do better.
Four centrists centrist-ing.
I’ve been calling out this propaganda since 2016. Dividing the left is an extremely successful tactic.
What do Democrats have to do with the left? Especially the Democrats in question.
Establishment Democrats have shived the left a million times and I never hear this pearl clutching about how they are “dividing the left” from folks like you. When a progressive primaries a corporate Democrat we get told that we shouldn’t mess with incumbents. When a corporate Democrat challenges a seated progressive, the establishment pumps tens of thousands of dollars into the challengers campaign.
We aren’t “dividing the left”, we are acknowledging a divide between the left and third way neoliberals. Establishment candidates want our votes and especially our donations, but then they want us to sit down and shut up.
Little-l left. As in, encompassing everyone left of center. Not “the Left”.
Neoliberalism is not a left of center political philosophy. We have to right of center parties and a moderately left of center population. That’s why the Democrats are always referred to as the lesser of two evils.
Mathematically, Democrats are by definition left of center. You can’t just place the “center” wherever you want.
Huh? What center are we talking about? Democrats are left of Republicans (marginally before Trump, but still) but the center of office holders is a pointless measure. Issue by issue the Democrats are solidly to the right of the vast majority of the US population.
da fuq? It’s the definition of “center”. It’s the literal way we measure political leanings.
One problem is that when it comes to individual issues, Americans are fairly to the left of Democrats. But when it comes to politicians or broad policies, Americans are to the RIGHT of Democrats. The American voting population is stupid, and they don’t consider individual issues (and in most cases, never vote on them via ballot measures etc). Also, a lot of policies are given the broad label of “reform”, and Americans have very different ideas of what “reform” means. “Immigration reform” could mean anything from an open border policy to immediate execution of any illegal immigrants. Most Americans support “reform” though.
So, half of the Taliban is left wing? Half of the third Reich was left wing? No, the center of office holders is not how we measure political leanings. You can go with political theory that defines left and right in a pretty fixed way, or you can go by the center of the population. By either of those standards, the Democrats are moderate right wing.
There is nothing particularly “stupid” about Americans. They are just flawed humans, and there is a reason for the mismatch between where they fall on issues and where they fall on (let’s call them) themes. The themes come from the narratives they receive from our two right wing parties. Ask them about particular issues and they think like individuals. Ask them about themes and they line up with the narratives coming to them from our two right wing parties.
Calling people who voted to disenfranchise millions the 'left" is an insult.
Havent you heard the term “It goes without saying”? I just don’t need to tell you that the sun rises in the east, 2+2=4, or Republicans are evil. But apparently, some of you insist on giving a pass to Democrats, who act like they’re on our side, but continually help make things worse.
The point is that it’s all kayfabe and just enough Democrats will vote to make things worse or prevent something from getting better. If you only blame Republicans, you’re not paying attention.
Funny how you people always conflate “not having the numbers to effectively stop Republicans” with “actively helping Republicans”. Every single time I drill down to ask what specifically the Dems did to make things worse, it’s always “they failed to stop the Republicans”.
I guess you’re confused because you aren’t listening.
THEY VOTED FOR THE BILL.
Voting for a bill is actively helping Republicans. Do you need to watch Schoolhouse Rock again?
THEY VOTED FOR THE BILL.
Absolutely nobody here is mad that Democrats “failed to stop Republicans”. You need to stop being disingenuous. We’re mad because THEY VOTED FOR THE BILL.
And we circle back around to “Democrats did a bad thing” instead of “a tiny number of Democrats went against the wishes of the party and joined all of the Republicans to do a bad thing”
Propaganda.
“The Democrats” did not vote for this bill and implying so is fucking. Propaganda.
So, what is the party going to do about it? If the answer is nothing, then the party itself shares the blame. Republicans enforce party discipline while Democrats use a lack of party discipline as an excuse.
Because the Republicans are fucking fascists and we are not. It’s more difficult to enforce discipline when your party is ANTI authoritarian.
Neoliberalism is proto fascism. Fascism is where the Democrats have led us. They are not anti-authoritarian, they are just not as authoritarian as the fascists.