"At the same time, the man who would head America’s gigantic military has tied US foreign policy almost entirely to the priority of Israel, a country of which he says: “If you love America, you should love Israel.”
Elsewhere, Hegseth appears to argue that the US military should ignore the Geneva conventions and any international laws governing the conduct of war, and instead “unleash them” to become a “ruthless”, "
This is why we can’t ignore it when the only other option is allowed to do whatever because it’s not as bad.
If more people had made more noise when Biden continually violated the Leahy Law and circumvented Congress to provide arms to an ongoing genocide… We had a chance to fix the system. To hold him accountable and make sure no matter who was the next president, they’d also be able to be held accountable
Instead the majority of Dems ignored it or worse made excuses for why Biden doesn’t need to follow US or international law.
Exactly. Democrats failed to end the genocide in Gaza because they didn’t create a partisan line in the sand to separate the State’s current bipartisan stance towards Israel.
Most Americans support ending the way in Gaza. Kamala should have run with this right out of the gate, breaking away from Biden and cutting any strings she has with him. The reason why Americans and donors pressured Biden to drop out is the same reason why Kamala lost. Both represented more of the same, and that voters felt like the current administration wasn’t hearing their voices.
So out of spite or piss poor messaging on the Dems’ side, people chose Trump instead.
This is absolutely an issue with establishment Democrats. Don’t get discouraged from sharing this idea in a post not having to do with Bernie Sanders or AOC. It’s the truth.
The dems should have been able to run, as another commenter in this thread eloquently put, “a piece of tinder” against Trump and have won. The fault and blame lies entirely in every shitheel that didn’t vote harris, whether they like or hate her and what she represents. Sadly, 2/3s of the country either dont care enough or would rather see a neofascist take office, I’m assuming, including you, based on your response.
Didn’t say liberals were ‘the left’. Just said that letting fascists win and putting the blame on the liberals, as every other problem in America apparently lays upon, is absurd.
The Dems were responsible for running a bad campaign. 2/3s of the American electorate were responsible for approving of, or not caring about, fascism. These fascists are now doing fascist things, which is, believe it or not, the fascists’ fault.
Woah, woah, hold up a minute. Since when are we expected to take personal responsibility? I intend to blame you when I cut off my nose to spite my face. You can’t change the rules now!
You sound like you have a promising future as a GOP speech-writer! Assuming they still need speech-writers after the electorate is dumbed down further. At this point, just making monkey screeches for an hour might be enough to get the appropriate Pavlovian reaction from the GOP’s base.
Did he also run on a platform supporting the holocaust “because it’s in the interest of our country and our ally” despite much of much of his constiuency and nearly the entire rest of the world saying otherwise?
Did his supporters call their fellow party members “stupid, single-issue voters” when they vehemently rejected said platform?
Lol. Ironically, the left at the time (backed by Soviets) attacked liberals for not being left-wing enough. That division allowed the NSDAP to complete their seizure of power when a left+centre coalition could have stopped them.
If after making noise, you either voted 3rd party or didn’t vote, you supported even more genocide and allowed Trump to win. Stop with this idiotic line of reasoning that somehow holding Biden accountable was more important than stopping Trump from becoming president.
If more people had made more noise when Biden continually violated the Leahy Law and circumvented Congress to provide arms to an ongoing genocide… We had a chance to fix the system. To hold him accountable and make sure no matter who was the next president, they’d also be able to be held accountable.
Citizens did make noise, citizens did point out that he violated Leahy Law, and the way to hold politicians accountable in a democracy is getting them out of office and away from the levers of power. Well here we are, Biden and Dems are going out of office and the genocide is going to be actively being accelerated by the Trump administration gleefully flooding Israel with more weapons “cleanse” Gaza so they can build their gaudy hotels and fulfill some Book of Revelations prophesy because the republican party is absolutely flooded with Dominionists.
And the real irony is that of the two candidates, which one is most likely to respond to post-election pressure to adjust the policies?
Sure sure sure, Trump can be influenced by money and flattery, but the people that are going to pay and flatter him are not exactly the ones arguing to save the lives of innocent civilians.
So the irony remains, of the two candidates to choose from, the people complaining about what is happening in Gaza picked the one least likely to do anything helpful once elected (“do” as opposed to what they said to get elected).
And there is no political leverage the proletariat has to push for policy change after the election. The pressure came from “do what we say or at election time we vote for someone else”
Well, every fucking election when it comes time to follow through after they again failed to hold up their end of the bargain the majority gets cold feet and caves to familiarity because risking change is scary.
At this point, we get to make a lengthy explanation about First Past the Post always leading to a 2 party system because of the spoiler effect, we get to a lengthy history explanation about how the (at the time) progressive republican party won the election with Abraham Lincoln because the (at the time) conservative Democrat party split into Dixiecrats in favor of slavery and northern Democrats who didn’t care either way and the Whig party just up and died in 1850 and that’s the only way a 3rd party becomes viable in FPTP. And then we just argue back and forth of “well if people just spontaneously saw things the way I do they would vote third party too!” to “That’s not how reality works.”
I didn’t ask which has the different policy now (ignoring my opinion about the truth of your assertion) but which is most likely to be responsive to public opinion; and I’d add, which one actually cares about the plight of others and which is an unofficially diagnosed narcissist.
But I’m fairly certain we won’t agree and sadly we’ll never know what Kamala coulda/woulda done. But with trump we’re about to Find Out. I hope we’re both wrong about him.
which is most likely to be responsive to public opinion
Neither. There were states that voted 11% undecided in the Democratic primaries with the explicit public purpose of trying to force Dems to stop sending WMD’s to Israel. That was a fairly significant public statement on administration policy.
The Dems ignored them and sent more WMD’s anyway.
Whether you agree with me or not is immaterial. On the issue of Israel’s genocide, both parties are exactly the same.
I don’t agree that 11% undecided in the primary is a “fairly significant public statement”, I mean, literally 11% is like, you know, small. Nor does a lack of policy change during the election cycle (which has a lot more factors than just Gaza to consider) immediately mean Kamala wouldn’t be open to changing tactics post election. But we’ll never know because, like I said, Trump won and now we get to find out if voting for him was net good or net bad for the Gaza cause.
But I can appreciate the emotional investment you have in “both sides-ing” this and ignoring the material differences between a narcissist that is already talking about lifting arms restrictions to Israel and Kamala.
Weather you agree with me or not is immaterial. On the issue of both parties being the same, you’re wrong. See how easy that is to say and it means nothing to an actual debate?
Well, they were significant enough, clearly. Probably wish you had those votes now.
See how easy that is to say and it means nothing to an actual debate?
It’s easy to say because I’m right. It doesn’t matter what Democrats say they’re going to do when they have exactly the same position as the other party.
You think because a small minority tried to hold Biden to a higher standard…
That it’s their fault Kamala lost when people who aren’t politically engaged didn’t want to vote for someone who said she agreed with (literally) everything Biden had done and wouldn’t have changed anything?
You’re saying that since Biden wasnt held accountable and Dems lost, the lesson is for no one to ever try to hold a Dem accountable?
Like, I’ve heard that before, usually I just block people with those opinions because I’d just never have a productive exchange with them…
But you kind of beat around the bush there.
Are you really blaming the voters and not the candidate?
I think Dems lost because a some of missteps along the way and some external factors. I think Biden should have said he wasn’t running again sooner, there should have been a proper primary, there needed to be even more of a focus on economic populism and making actual progress, not just trying to maintain the status quo. There were a lot of people who just didn’t vote. And then Republicans
At the end of the day, the only people who have an opinion about Palestine are politically engaged leftists who want to see the genocide stop and anyone watching Fox News who wants Israel to win. For the rest of America unfortunately, it doesn’t matter to them. That’s a fight happening halfway around the world between 2 nations that aren’t us.
I would have loved to see a peaceful end to the conflict, but that’s wasn’t going to realistically happen either way, but I would much preferred to see as little escalation as possible, and trump is nothing but escalation.
So again, we punished democrats in the way democracy punishes people who actually believe in democratic processes and let republicans who don’t give 2 shits about democratic processes get to run rampant in the government. Good. Fucking. Job.
At the end of the day, the only people who have an opinion about Palestine are politically engaged leftists who want to see the genocide stop and anyone watching Fox News who wants Israel to win. For the rest of America unfortunately, it doesn’t matter to them. That’s a fight happening halfway around the world between 2 nations that aren’t us.
If Kamala had got the “genocide is bad and we shouldn’t fund it” voters, she’d have won and trump would be getting sentenced soon for his crimes…
You can argue that most don’t care. And while I disagree I’m not going to bother looking for a survey.
Because it’s a moot point.
It doesn’t matter if a majority of voters care. It’s the right thing to do, and for a Dem candidate “doing the right thing” still translates to an increase in votes regardless of if people care about the specific victims of this genocide.
So again, we punished democrats in the way democracy punishes people who actually believe in democratic processes and let republicans who don’t give 2 shits about democratic processes get to run rampant in the governmen
You’re still blaming voters…
Kamala, her campaign team, and the DNC lost their election.
Their job is to convince voters to vote for them. Instead every “compromise” they tried to steal republican voters gained zero votes and lost people who were trying to hold their nose for her
Thanks for responding though to clarify. I just don’t think anything we tell each other will be productive
One point of clarification after I say there were people who just didn’t vote, I also intended to say add Republicans launched several purges of voter registrations that tended to hit anyone further to the left of them and employed every voter suppression tactic in the book to depress Democrat voter turnout.
Biden didn’t actually violate the Leahy Law. Here’s the relevant section:
No assistance shall be furnished under this Act or the Arms Export Control Act to any unit of the security forces of a foreign country if the Secretary of State has credible information that such unit has committed a gross violation of human rights.
with a later amendment that included DoD-derived funding.
Which units got arms that were engaged in rights violations? I understand that isn’t very satisfying when we know Israel has committed war crimes, but the law does not specify country, it specifies military unit. So, which unit should be barred from receiving arms? The others will still be able to legally receive them in full compliance with the Leahy Law.
Then we also have:
(b) Exception.—The prohibition in subsection (a)(1) shall not apply if the Secretary of Defense, after consultation with the Secretary of State, determines that the government of such country has taken all necessary corrective steps, or if the equipment or other assistance is necessary to assist in disaster relief operations or other humanitarian or national security emergencies.
This clause frankly creates a legal loophole the size of a Merkava.
I don’t believe it’s direct support for genocide, more than that genocide is an acceptable price for others to pay for American Imperialism/Exceptionalism.
Exactly. Can’t have change from within the system when the vast majority willingly throws away their political leverage and uncritically grants power to genocidal imperialists.
How many empty promises must people fall victim to before they decide to do something other than beg for change?
They’ve been trained, from nearly a century of propaganda, to deny the possibility of any alternative forms of the government or economy. It’s the reason for half of the US’s foreign policy.
I have no idea why you’re getting down voted. You’re absolutely right. Lots of sour grapes and copium happening with Dems. I plugged my nose voting for Harris feeling what you mentioned in my bones.
Right? Seems like even on Lemmy, a platform seen as progressive compared to the status quo, you’ll still find Liberals that would rather point blame at their fellow class rather than holding their elected officials and their donors accountable.
Don’t worry they’ll learn a lesson from this that they need to go further right yet again in order to beat the right in an election. Don’t let the fact that they keep losing distract you from the fact that this is a winning strategy.
They get more votes because when you only have two candidates, and both are appealing to the right, the one who is fully right wing will beat out the one that is offering half assed attempts at pandering. And that isn’t even beginning to get into the propaganda from the right that Dems are nothing but sleezy liars who will say anything to get their way, and then the Dems literally start doing that, won’t win over anyone from across the isle.
A simple analogy is you have two cake shops, both selling for the same price (a single vote). One advertising a generic square cake and the other a three tier masterpiece with all the bells and whistles. It’s quite obvious who is gonna get the most customers.
Meanwhile the rest of the population gets further and further disillusioned with the system and stops participating when its obvious that it doesn’t care to represent their interests.
The candidates the party run are supported by a very small but very very vocal subgroup of the Dem party who were Republicans before Bill Clinton.
Those candidates almost never win elections, they only have a chance when the Republican is a literal fascist.
The problem is rather than just let a candidate in that the majority of Dem voters want…
They pull shit like Hillary did in 2015 to help the worst Republicans hoping it’s enough to get people to vote for a neoliberal. Because they’d rather have a fascist that agrees with them economically than a progressive Dem.
"At the same time, the man who would head America’s gigantic military has tied US foreign policy almost entirely to the priority of Israel, a country of which he says: “If you love America, you should love Israel.”
Elsewhere, Hegseth appears to argue that the US military should ignore the Geneva conventions and any international laws governing the conduct of war, and instead “unleash them” to become a “ruthless”, "
Fuuuuckin hell!
Indeed and the mofo would start WW III by invading Iran.
This is why we can’t ignore it when the only other option is allowed to do whatever because it’s not as bad.
If more people had made more noise when Biden continually violated the Leahy Law and circumvented Congress to provide arms to an ongoing genocide… We had a chance to fix the system. To hold him accountable and make sure no matter who was the next president, they’d also be able to be held accountable
Instead the majority of Dems ignored it or worse made excuses for why Biden doesn’t need to follow US or international law.
Exactly. Democrats failed to end the genocide in Gaza because they didn’t create a partisan line in the sand to separate the State’s current bipartisan stance towards Israel.
Most Americans support ending the way in Gaza. Kamala should have run with this right out of the gate, breaking away from Biden and cutting any strings she has with him. The reason why Americans and donors pressured Biden to drop out is the same reason why Kamala lost. Both represented more of the same, and that voters felt like the current administration wasn’t hearing their voices.
So out of spite or piss poor messaging on the Dems’ side, people chose Trump instead.
This is absolutely an issue with establishment Democrats. Don’t get discouraged from sharing this idea in a post not having to do with Bernie Sanders or AOC. It’s the truth.
The dems should have been able to run, as another commenter in this thread eloquently put, “a piece of tinder” against Trump and have won. The fault and blame lies entirely in every shitheel that didn’t vote harris, whether they like or hate her and what she represents. Sadly, 2/3s of the country either dont care enough or would rather see a neofascist take office, I’m assuming, including you, based on your response.
Letting fascists win and still finding a way to put the REAL blame on the LIBS.
Just absolutely astounding.
Libs are not the left. They’re just barely left of the GOP.
Everything looks hard right to my tired eyes.
Didn’t say liberals were ‘the left’. Just said that letting fascists win and putting the blame on the liberals, as every other problem in America apparently lays upon, is absurd.
Who else was responsible for their campaign but them?
The Dems were responsible for running a bad campaign. 2/3s of the American electorate were responsible for approving of, or not caring about, fascism. These fascists are now doing fascist things, which is, believe it or not, the fascists’ fault.
Woah, woah, hold up a minute. Since when are we expected to take personal responsibility? I intend to blame you when I cut off my nose to spite my face. You can’t change the rules now!
You sound like you have a promising future as a GOP speech-writer! Assuming they still need speech-writers after the electorate is dumbed down further. At this point, just making monkey screeches for an hour might be enough to get the appropriate Pavlovian reaction from the GOP’s base.
The holocaust is Hans Vogel’s fault, ackshually
At that point you’re not far from actual tankie positions.
Did he also run on a platform supporting the holocaust “because it’s in the interest of our country and our ally” despite much of much of his constiuency and nearly the entire rest of the world saying otherwise?
Did his supporters call their fellow party members “stupid, single-issue voters” when they vehemently rejected said platform?
Lol. Ironically, the left at the time (backed by Soviets) attacked liberals for not being left-wing enough. That division allowed the NSDAP to complete their seizure of power when a left+centre coalition could have stopped them.
Sounds like centrist liberals have been causing everyone issues for generations now.
If after making noise, you either voted 3rd party or didn’t vote, you supported even more genocide and allowed Trump to win. Stop with this idiotic line of reasoning that somehow holding Biden accountable was more important than stopping Trump from becoming president.
You Russian stooge.
Citizens did make noise, citizens did point out that he violated Leahy Law, and the way to hold politicians accountable in a democracy is getting them out of office and away from the levers of power. Well here we are, Biden and Dems are going out of office and the genocide is going to be actively being accelerated by the Trump administration gleefully flooding Israel with more weapons “cleanse” Gaza so they can build their gaudy hotels and fulfill some Book of Revelations prophesy because the republican party is absolutely flooded with Dominionists.
Good. Fucking. Job.
Exactly.
And the real irony is that of the two candidates, which one is most likely to respond to post-election pressure to adjust the policies?
Sure sure sure, Trump can be influenced by money and flattery, but the people that are going to pay and flatter him are not exactly the ones arguing to save the lives of innocent civilians.
So the irony remains, of the two candidates to choose from, the people complaining about what is happening in Gaza picked the one least likely to do anything helpful once elected (“do” as opposed to what they said to get elected).
On the issue of Israel, neither. They have exactly the same policies.
And there is no political leverage the proletariat has to push for policy change after the election. The pressure came from “do what we say or at election time we vote for someone else”
Well, every fucking election when it comes time to follow through after they again failed to hold up their end of the bargain the majority gets cold feet and caves to familiarity because risking change is scary.
You’re not wrong.
That’s why 99% of voters pick the same two shitty parties that are driving them to the brink of homelessness.
At this point, we get to make a lengthy explanation about First Past the Post always leading to a 2 party system because of the spoiler effect, we get to a lengthy history explanation about how the (at the time) progressive republican party won the election with Abraham Lincoln because the (at the time) conservative Democrat party split into Dixiecrats in favor of slavery and northern Democrats who didn’t care either way and the Whig party just up and died in 1850 and that’s the only way a 3rd party becomes viable in FPTP. And then we just argue back and forth of “well if people just spontaneously saw things the way I do they would vote third party too!” to “That’s not how reality works.”
People know how reality works. That’s why 10,000,000 fewer people voted this election.
I didn’t ask which has the different policy now (ignoring my opinion about the truth of your assertion) but which is most likely to be responsive to public opinion; and I’d add, which one actually cares about the plight of others and which is an unofficially diagnosed narcissist.
But I’m fairly certain we won’t agree and sadly we’ll never know what Kamala coulda/woulda done. But with trump we’re about to Find Out. I hope we’re both wrong about him.
Neither. There were states that voted 11% undecided in the Democratic primaries with the explicit public purpose of trying to force Dems to stop sending WMD’s to Israel. That was a fairly significant public statement on administration policy.
The Dems ignored them and sent more WMD’s anyway.
Whether you agree with me or not is immaterial. On the issue of Israel’s genocide, both parties are exactly the same.
I don’t agree that 11% undecided in the primary is a “fairly significant public statement”, I mean, literally 11% is like, you know, small. Nor does a lack of policy change during the election cycle (which has a lot more factors than just Gaza to consider) immediately mean Kamala wouldn’t be open to changing tactics post election. But we’ll never know because, like I said, Trump won and now we get to find out if voting for him was net good or net bad for the Gaza cause.
But I can appreciate the emotional investment you have in “both sides-ing” this and ignoring the material differences between a narcissist that is already talking about lifting arms restrictions to Israel and Kamala.
Weather you agree with me or not is immaterial. On the issue of both parties being the same, you’re wrong. See how easy that is to say and it means nothing to an actual debate?
-Cheers
How many swing states lost by 11%?
Well, they were significant enough, clearly. Probably wish you had those votes now.
It’s easy to say because I’m right. It doesn’t matter what Democrats say they’re going to do when they have exactly the same position as the other party.
So…
You think because a small minority tried to hold Biden to a higher standard…
That it’s their fault Kamala lost when people who aren’t politically engaged didn’t want to vote for someone who said she agreed with (literally) everything Biden had done and wouldn’t have changed anything?
You’re saying that since Biden wasnt held accountable and Dems lost, the lesson is for no one to ever try to hold a Dem accountable?
Like, I’ve heard that before, usually I just block people with those opinions because I’d just never have a productive exchange with them…
But you kind of beat around the bush there.
Are you really blaming the voters and not the candidate?
I think Dems lost because a some of missteps along the way and some external factors. I think Biden should have said he wasn’t running again sooner, there should have been a proper primary, there needed to be even more of a focus on economic populism and making actual progress, not just trying to maintain the status quo. There were a lot of people who just didn’t vote. And then Republicans
At the end of the day, the only people who have an opinion about Palestine are politically engaged leftists who want to see the genocide stop and anyone watching Fox News who wants Israel to win. For the rest of America unfortunately, it doesn’t matter to them. That’s a fight happening halfway around the world between 2 nations that aren’t us.
I would have loved to see a peaceful end to the conflict, but that’s wasn’t going to realistically happen either way, but I would much preferred to see as little escalation as possible, and trump is nothing but escalation.
So again, we punished democrats in the way democracy punishes people who actually believe in democratic processes and let republicans who don’t give 2 shits about democratic processes get to run rampant in the government. Good. Fucking. Job.
If Kamala had got the “genocide is bad and we shouldn’t fund it” voters, she’d have won and trump would be getting sentenced soon for his crimes…
You can argue that most don’t care. And while I disagree I’m not going to bother looking for a survey.
Because it’s a moot point.
It doesn’t matter if a majority of voters care. It’s the right thing to do, and for a Dem candidate “doing the right thing” still translates to an increase in votes regardless of if people care about the specific victims of this genocide.
You’re still blaming voters…
Kamala, her campaign team, and the DNC lost their election.
Their job is to convince voters to vote for them. Instead every “compromise” they tried to steal republican voters gained zero votes and lost people who were trying to hold their nose for her
Thanks for responding though to clarify. I just don’t think anything we tell each other will be productive
One point of clarification after I say there were people who just didn’t vote, I also intended to say add Republicans launched several purges of voter registrations that tended to hit anyone further to the left of them and employed every voter suppression tactic in the book to depress Democrat voter turnout.
Removed by mod
Biden didn’t actually violate the Leahy Law. Here’s the relevant section:
with a later amendment that included DoD-derived funding.
Which units got arms that were engaged in rights violations? I understand that isn’t very satisfying when we know Israel has committed war crimes, but the law does not specify country, it specifies military unit. So, which unit should be barred from receiving arms? The others will still be able to legally receive them in full compliance with the Leahy Law.
Then we also have:
This clause frankly creates a legal loophole the size of a Merkava.
edit for formatting
It doesn’t matter. 99% of voters pick one of the two ruling parties every time, and both of them are pro-genocide.
I don’t believe it’s direct support for genocide, more than that genocide is an acceptable price for others to pay for American Imperialism/Exceptionalism.
I’d consider giving a country more WMD’s in the middle of bombing hospitals, apartment buildings, and kids pro-genocide.
What I mean is that it’s just the means to the end of projecting US power in the middle east.
They’ll maintain power via Israel not matter the price.
Exactly. Can’t have change from within the system when the vast majority willingly throws away their political leverage and uncritically grants power to genocidal imperialists.
How many empty promises must people fall victim to before they decide to do something other than beg for change?
They’ve been trained, from nearly a century of propaganda, to deny the possibility of any alternative forms of the government or economy. It’s the reason for half of the US’s foreign policy.
I have no idea why you’re getting down voted. You’re absolutely right. Lots of sour grapes and copium happening with Dems. I plugged my nose voting for Harris feeling what you mentioned in my bones.
Right? Seems like even on Lemmy, a platform seen as progressive compared to the status quo, you’ll still find Liberals that would rather point blame at their fellow class rather than holding their elected officials and their donors accountable.
Don’t worry they’ll learn a lesson from this that they need to go further right yet again in order to beat the right in an election. Don’t let the fact that they keep losing distract you from the fact that this is a winning strategy.
Funny the cognitive discord on these platforms. You’re paraphrasing me, but aren’t getting down voted.
When the further right candidate gets more votes, which direction would you suggest they go?
Left! Most Americans support progressive policies if they’re framed in a palatable way.
They get more votes because when you only have two candidates, and both are appealing to the right, the one who is fully right wing will beat out the one that is offering half assed attempts at pandering. And that isn’t even beginning to get into the propaganda from the right that Dems are nothing but sleezy liars who will say anything to get their way, and then the Dems literally start doing that, won’t win over anyone from across the isle.
A simple analogy is you have two cake shops, both selling for the same price (a single vote). One advertising a generic square cake and the other a three tier masterpiece with all the bells and whistles. It’s quite obvious who is gonna get the most customers.
Meanwhile the rest of the population gets further and further disillusioned with the system and stops participating when its obvious that it doesn’t care to represent their interests.
This is the core of the issue.
The candidates the party run are supported by a very small but very very vocal subgroup of the Dem party who were Republicans before Bill Clinton.
Those candidates almost never win elections, they only have a chance when the Republican is a literal fascist.
The problem is rather than just let a candidate in that the majority of Dem voters want…
They pull shit like Hillary did in 2015 to help the worst Republicans hoping it’s enough to get people to vote for a neoliberal. Because they’d rather have a fascist that agrees with them economically than a progressive Dem.