Original post here: https://hexbear.net/post/3856299?scrollToComments=false
I think we have a general path forward based on community feedback. “We see you, we hear you!”
I went ahead and unpinned the old post. I’m pinning this one for now and will edit this post when I wake up from eepy time. I had a very mid week and have no particular alarm set so be on look out. Love y’all and I’m amped for my first announcement post since coming back. :)
The mods behind this statement should come forward and c/selfcrit. So many people have pointed out the the jacketing the userbase here as cishet white Reddit debatebros is fucked up and hurtful among other issues, and they are cowards for hiding behind CARCOSA. If you have contempt for the users then say it with your whole fucking chest under your own name
The fact CARCOSA has the presence of mind to step down (should have just offered it, don’t step down please) and these losers are still just hiding is reprehensible.
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seems like you are too scared to respond
Aren’t you on your 20th alt account? Post it under your main, it’s a bit sad at this point
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whiny loser pissbaby
Aren’t you on your 20th alt account? Post it under your main, it’s a bit sad at this point
(I don’t really get piss baby as an insult? If you’ve ever cared for infants you know they piss a lot and you’ll probably get pissed on a few times too)
lmao imagine screaming and crying like a toddler and then calling others a baby
Anyway I found out what you meant I should respond to - The mod response. I did respond to it yesterday, but you probably missed it because it wasn’t one sentence. If you want more effortposts, engage with effort!
Wow what happened here
A user of hexbear on an alt account keeps attacking people with harsh personal insults and tells them to kys if they disagree with them. They showed up yesterday and have not stopped.
The funniest part was them telling me to go die because I’m a chauvinistic white male or something, even though most of the posts I’ve made on this website (and in particular to the community in question, the dunk tank) consist of calling precisely that attitude out and mocking racists, along with high effort posts encouraging users to read theory that counters chauvinism, in particular Samir Amin’s Eurocentrism, and Unequal Development.
Somebody who isn’t getting the mental health service they need are having an episode in the comment section.
They’re fighting against chauvinism (people disagreeing with them) by making deaththreats, misgendering people, arguing against non-binary gender identity, calling people “uppity” (which reeks of misogyny/racism) and a bunch of other stuff. Also threatening that we are all going to get banned soon, it’s honestly kinda funny. It’s pretty likely they’re a mod here who is mad people don’t applaud their wack ramblings about the dunk tank being misogynystic and chauvinist and toxic.
They’ve also earned me $35 so far, so that’s nice (I won a bet)
Aren’t you the person that told everyone to go die yesterday?
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Lol respond to what? The same thing we’ve gone thru 10 times already? Yeah I’m definitely terrified that this time if I write it out it won’t get ignored by dorks like you
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Sincerely thank you so much for doing this loser thing still. It’s incredibly sad, but you’ve just financed me eating a nice dinner, thanks so much
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Please keep going lol
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Yeah lol terrified, respond about what?
They’re saying we’re being misanthropic when we shoot the shit about the absurdities about reactionary thought? I mean, we started out as a fandom for a political comedy podcast for crying out loud. That sort of pop criticism is what drew me left in the first place.
But, if we’re talking “misanthropic,” I’ve seen reactionary guys who’s brains have been poisoned by consuming nothing but crime stories. They think humans are just naturally violent in some sort of semi-Hobbesean view. Now that’s what I’d consider misanthropic.
Lol sorry I couldnt comment on the actual post so I put it here
Condescending, infantilizing, dismissive, ableist, and incredibly transphobic - what can’t be said about that post? Genuinely fucking wack, the mods responsible can eat my entire ass. Especially at a point in time where the right is attacking trans people with no pushback, the liberals are already starting to abandon us, and our rights and our lives are in more danger then they have been in decades. Coming from a place that was so formative in allowing me to develop my understanding of my own gender is just so so disappointing. We’ve literally done demographic surveys, half the active users aren’t even cis. We’re right back to tone policing and civility politics, yet again. We’re a shitposting site and we always have been, a direct offshoot of a shitposting subreddit. Sorry if I seem misanthropic but it comes with the territory when half the country you live in hates your fucking guts. I’m not going to be a good civil little f-slur and write an effort post explaining why reactionary shithead number 48902507’s opinion is counter-revolutionary, I want their takes ripped to shreds and treated with the disdain that reactionary opinions deserve. Where is your fucking rage? . And then to say that there’s a problem with mysogyny on the dunk comms and call the new comm fucking gossip??? A term meaning vapid and mindless chatter that is deeply associated with misogynyistic attitudes towards women?? Absolutely nasty. Calling it mutual self harm is fucking gross and ableist too. I know well what self harm is, and I don’t need some jumped up power user telling me that getting some laughs or venting our anger at terrible people a bit in a broken, dying world is remotely equivalent to even the most basic forms of SH. Its insulting at best. I would go so far as to say that there were points in my life where having just the tiniest refuge of sanity in a sea of shit kept me from doing worse things to myself than what I’ve already done. Whoever made that analogy specifically needs to pull their head out of their fucking ass.
If there’s a problem with comm culture then a discussion should have been made about what could be done on both the users, and the mods ends to improve the comms in a more positive direction. Things like - finding a better name, healthier site usage habits, combating misogyny, racism, etc, and pushing back against irony poisoning. But clearly there is a problem with the moderation itself if this is the attitude that the a large portion of the mod team has towards the userbase.
@TransComrade69@hexbear.net I think a mod purge or at least deeeep self crit is warranted for the mods who engaged in this display of smug, self righteous, -mod level behavior
get your laughs while you can, I’m going to go for a while
The cishet man comments hurt me too. Sorry I give off cishet man vibes.
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Did you get some rest sweetie?
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Everyone I Don’t Like Is A Chauvinist and other arguments made by crybully liberals
You do seem energized
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aww you’re cute
Wat. Nobody, absolutely nobody, wanted Carcosa to step down. We just want to shitpost. Let us shitpost, Carcosa come back, and everything will be whole again. It’s so simple it does not need to be more complicated than that.
ALL of this was clearly shortsighted and a mistake. All behind the scenes communications (between mods, admins, and with other instances), trying to implement changes without the community even being aware (let alone being behind them), and finally mods and admins stepping down. I mean seriously, take a step back and tell me this doesn’t absolutely reek of wrecker shit.
Do we seriously think that the squeaky wheel for moving the site further from “white cishet male vibes” would be adding a barrier to posting unless you engage in debatebro dialectics? I mean that’s comically white cishet male vibes.
Let’s be so real right now. Undo everything. Start over. That includes admins unilaterally unadminning. Theyve done their self crit and it seemed as genuine as it could be, now they should ask the community for forgiveness and I’m almost certain theyll get it. If they don’t, then that’s that and they bow out gracefully, but at this point (unless they resigned for mental health issues) I feel as though they owe it to the community to have a say. The community deserves this whole situation to be approached from the very beginning. This includes deciding whether a debate even needs to be held regarding the old or new comms. No poweruser bullshit about trying to change site culture or making it more serious without community input.
I am a mod on /agitprop. If people like the idea, I’m more than happy to have a weekly Megathread running parallel to the standing news Megathread that is limited strictly to serious discussion, close readings, and actual counter propaganda about current events and other cultural zeitgeist issues. We have plenty of great users ready to put great effort into their posts if they’ll get noticed. If you need any evidence, look at the current pinned thread on /agitprop which has had (knock on wood) NO modding to it thus far and been completely on topic and FILLED with high effort posting. Stopping people from being unserious and having fun will not make them be serious, it will just end their engagement. Plenty of people come here to do both things, myself included. If you like your shitposting, you can keep it.
Have faith that the community is good as if you are a part of it, and I promise you’ll have a much more fruitful experience than trying to change it from the top down.
GOOD post! Though I don’t need carcosa to unadmin.
Also going forward we need to stop hiding mod actions behind automod. Reopen feedback or userunion. Stop having so many “anonymous” mod discussions, but instead have them a place where users can read (though not participate) what is going on. Anonymity should be for opsec reasons only, not just some shithead wanting to be able to talk shit without pushback.
I think there should probably be some accountability for whoever was/were behind “the white cishet man vibes” part of the post, editing it out of the original post doesn’t change that is was there, saying that shit was kinda fucked, as many people in the original post noted
Yeah carcosa stepping down makes things worse not better. The issue was in no way carcosa, in fact they made it much less bad than it could have been. The idea that carcosa steps down and those cowardly mods still get to run around behaving like gross bigots pisses me off.
I still don’t fully understand what is happening. I know I don’t want @CARCOSA@hexbear.net to go though
Apparently this is why they are stepping down? I really disagree with that, people are conflating “trying to avoid more drama” with “working with nazis” in the other thread. I feel like I missed something there.
On top of that this is Carcosas reasoning for stepping down which is what motivated me to hammer home that they handled this situation as best as it possibly could be handled and they really should not step down for making mistakes, when the only mistake they’ve made is listen to those shitty mods.People, me included, are mad because of the mod statement that was released about the closing down of the comms + The reasoning for closing down the comms. In a lot of ways it seems like this is the culmination of something that has been a long time coming and been unresolved for far too long - Some users think posting is praxis and that hexbear should be the headquarters of the revolutionary vanguard.
These users are dipshits that don’t understand that most leftist orgs are also just fun places to hang out and shoot the shit. That’s why people choose to volunteer for that kind of stuff - Because it is, in part, nice.
These dipshits furthermore think their treats are somehow less treatlike than the treats they dislike despite both treats being hexbear.
Finally they have a narc mindset.
Also they smell bad and they coat their shitty behaviour with leftist rhetoric so they can get away with it. Lots of talk about “chauvinism”, “bigotry” and “toxicity” despite the previous thread being full of those very same people being incredibly hostile, dismissive, derisive, misgendering, ableist and a lot more. This isn’t hypocrisy, because they don’t actually care about bigotry, they just use it as an excuse to avoid self-reflection.I don’t understand why this place can’t be both a place to help people organise and do productive stuff and be a fun place to shitpost.
I dunno, I am pretty dumb I guess.
No you’re on the money because it does not make sense. It’s a lot easier to organize in places with people than it is in a barren desert.
On top of that I do not understand why people think we need to be productive on a website we visit for fun. This is not a place I go to create value. I am not here to work.Trying to squeeze value out of casual discussion is lethal to casual discussion. It reminds me somewhat of Reddit’s attempt to monetize the website especially in the lead-up to their IPO.
I suppose Hexbear can be construed to serve a leftist purpose. That purpose is community and sanctuary. I don’t think it can or should be more than that, at least not in this space.
No actually posting has to be productive. I don’t know how it can be productive, but it better be. I have a healthy mindset about being online.
get back to the posting mines, soldier
Sorry I had to make vegan ice cream and then eat too much of it
If Carcosa is telling the truth, then it makes them look dumb and duplicitous for thinking other admins would fall for such an obvious ruse.
If Carcosa is lying, then it makes them look duplicitous and dumb because they are trying to weasel their way out of what the screenshot plainly says.
Given this, Carcosa is right to step down. How can anyone trust them anymore? I certainly don’t trust them anymore.
What? Yeah Carcosa said they lied, that tracks completely with what they’re saying, I’ve already talked to this here
It doesn’t make carcosa look duplicitous. It makes carcosa look like somebody who is trying to convince somebody to help them, it’s pretty standard fare when you talk to someone who is hostile to you. I do it at work from time to time.@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com put it pretty well here too
I no longer really trust Carcosa anymore because I find it hard to believe that anyone would think that other people, especially people hostile and distrustful of you like liberal and fascist admins of a shitty Reddit clone, would fall for such a transparent ruse. Hostile admins would automatically assume Carcosa is full of shit anyways on account of them being liberals and fascists hostile to Hexbear as a socialist website. And even if I can be made to trust Carcosa again, I certainly can no longer trust Carcosa’s judgment. Like, based on what Carcosa said, they basically never bother running through this ruse with the other admins of this website. So Carcosa lied to other lemmy admins without telling the other Hexbear admins?
Frankly, I find that extraordinarily hard to believe. A much more sensible series of events is that the ruse was thought of and collectively decided upon by all the admins and Carcosa was made the emissary due to their reputation as “the reasonable Hexbearian” among the rest of the Fediverse. Carcosa saying it was all their idea and stepping down is Carcosa falling on their sword on behalf of the other admins so us unwashed sicko masses don’t grab our pitchforks and blame the rest of the admins.
Whatever the case, what’s done is done.
I no longer really trust Carcosa anymore because I find it hard to believe that anyone would think that other people, especially people hostile and distrustful of you like liberal and fascist admins of a shitty Reddit clone, would fall for such a transparent ruse.
That’s fair. It’s not nice to see someone you (used to) trust lying. I’m not trying to convince you and I don’t think you’re trying to convince me either, we’re just sharing our thoughts.[1] I’ve personally been in similar situations wrt being the middleperson between a lot of groups and having to try to manage everything. It lead to me doing a lot of the same stuff.
I don’t know if carcosa expected it to work, but I trust that carcosa hoped it would and that they ended up calculating that the positive outcome was worth risking the most negative outcome. I’m not saying it’s a good thing to do, but I’m saying it’s understandable and completely rational. Carcosa acknowledged their mistake and offered to step down, which I really do not think they should do. It was a mistake, but we all make mistakes.
No idea why I’m saying this, but I felt the need to. You’re nice and I enjoy this interaction, thank you ↩︎
Edit: I read wrong :(
It is? A “narc” is slang for a “narcotics cop”. How is that related to neurodivergency?
Sorry, I thought you were saying it like “narcissistic mindset”
I’ll edit my comment
No worries, I can understand the confusion if you don’t know the slang. An to be honest it was hostile.
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Fuck what a gutbuster, you got me again lol, I’m sincerely laughing out loud. This is also a good example of what I meant by “can’t handle disagreement so has to invent something to get mad at” by the way
Seek a mental health professionals help please
Some users think posting is praxis and that hexbear should be the headquarters of the revolutionary vanguard.
no one is thinking that, no one is forcing you to make effortposts, if you want to just call someone dumb you have c/gossip for that, what we are merely doing is forbidding low-effort dunking on private people, which we think is toxic and boring
which we think is toxic and boring
Who exactly is “we”, and why should what you think matter to the rest of us?
Especially when you are not being forced to be the mod of a comm and can simply not engage with or even see the content VIA THE INTENTIONAL DESIGN OF THE SITE.
Feels like we just had a struggle session over somebody getting annoyed that when they jumped in the pool, they got wet.
Fuck off you dork. I’m pretty obviously being hyperbolic to underline a point in that sentence.
You’re still being a dismissive shitheel who fails to engage with the users who have put forth well-reasoned arguments for why dunking is not toxic. You continuing to repeat “it’s toxic” like some fucked up parrot does not make it so.
If it’s boring, maybe don’t be a mod of the comm you massive dipshit. Just block it, it’s actually really easy. There’s tons of comms I don’t interact with, because I don’t find them interesting. You are a fantastic example of the attitude I’m talking about.Now I’m gonna become the parrot and repeat myself, but it’s pretty fucking telling that all the shitheels who cry about “toxicity in the dunk tank” have been massive assholes throughout this entire thing. If this was about toxicity, one would think you of all people would be less of a turd when you’re interacting with other people, even people who dares to gasp disagree with you. Do some fucking self-crit you bug
edit: “we think” is obviously not everybody. Stop hiding behind a general vague group.
I did not engage with those arguments because i did not find them convincing, all they boil down to is that its cathartic and “fun”, but i fail to see why the targets must be other common people for it to be cathartic and “fun”
If I go to work and my coworker is being a bigoted asshole conspiracy weirdo I am gonna vent about it when I get home to my partner.
I don’t care how much of a “common man” he is.I think it’s clear that plenty of people here, evidently at least a plurality, find these posts to be cathartic and “fun”, so why should you and a handful of people disagreeing have any impact on why people shouldn’t get to have catharsis and fun?
Essentially, why are you right other than you think you are?
The “targets” don’t even know we’re talking about them. In the off chance that someone sees a post on the comm and decides to go dunk on some fascist, I’d say it’s deserved, we should not take any actions to protect fascists from having their feelings hurt.
Ah is this the fabled improved rhetoric? Or is this your idea of not being dismissive and toxic?
“I didn’t engage with the arguments because I didn’t agree with them”
Fuck off, seriously. Do some self crit.- “Oh I don’t like this thing, so therefore it’s not good.” Narc mindset.
- You’re also changing your reasoning. Before it was that targeting non-powerful people “had no impact” lol. Now it’ that you feel sorry for some chud who will never see us laughing at them?
- Also you’re presenting it as a “has to”. It doesn’t have to target “other common people”, which is a very loaded phrasing, but it can.
- What happened to it being unhealthy? Or do you realise how stupid that sounds, so you excluded it. That doesn’t make sense though, since that would have required you engaged with the arguments.
Why are you modding the dunk tank? Why take the job if you hate it?
edit: If you can’t even be arsed to put in basic effort when having an argument, how can you expect this site to be one that fosters effortposts?
i fail to see why the targets must be other common people for it to be cathartic and “fun”
You’ve read the posts though right? like objectively there are some pretty bad fucking people getting represented in that content
Westerners are not members of the global proletariat, they are our enemies
Says you lot.
” When will it finally be my turn to work in the coal mines?”
After the revolution you WILL be effortposting thrice daily
NO I WANT TO POST CUTE PICTURES OF CATS AND TWITTER SCREENSHOTS OF DINGUSES BEING DINGUSES
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How does this ruin other people’s fun?
You have been accused of wrongthink. Please cease having fun immediately because I don’t like it
How does removing the place where people go to do a thing, remove their ability to go to the place and do a thing? Are you 12? Children don’t learn how action and consequence are linked until age 13. It would eplain a lot of your behaviour if you were a tween
toxic and boring
Yet fake news?
Turns out that comm is cool and good because the most prolific poster over there is a good friend of the admins.
Funny how that works.
Why are you modding a comm you hate?Seems like there’s a simple solution to that
You specifically should not be a mod. Carcosa shouldn’t step down, you should.
Yeah, not really sure what has happened and as we are some of the most active posters, that worries me a little. Things seem to be blowing up and getting resolved while we’re asleep.
Given some of the recent history, sometimes seems like we have a transphobic mod/admin problem, not a transphobic user problem.
Yeah lol the last thread about misogyny I had to bite my tongue not to blurt out “over half this site is queer! Maybe the problem isn’t just the 10 cishet guys we keep as pets! Maybe you should look inwards you fucking dorks! Maybe you’re the issue!”
queer people also aren’t immune to misogyny brainworms unfortunately. I had some qualms about some details of that thread (if I’m thinking of the same one), but to say the mods are The Problem then as now…
I guess I’m just not sure i’m totally on board with the “shitty mod clique” thesis you’re operating on. I think there are definitely some people operating more on vibes and their personal comfort, which sometimes results in bad analysis, but on the other hand, we want all sorts of marginalized people to be comfortable here, so its not like you can completely ignore those factors either.
But on the other hand, we want all sorts of marginalized people to be comfortable here, so its not like you can completely ignore those factors either.
I 100% agree! I tried to word this in such a way as to make it clear I do not disagree with that sentiment at all but I couldn’t figure out a way to make it explicitly clear, without being clunky.
What I was trying to say was that there is a group of people who do not care about these issues they allege, but instead use them as an excuse to push thru changes they wish to see in the site, despite those changes being deeply unpopular. They can then say “oh it’s only unpopular with bigots!” to avoid any critique.
agree, this was the thing that peeved me the most about the whole debacle honestly. also don’t think carcosa needs to step down unless it’s also for personal reasons.
For me what pissed me off, was an alt account of one of our users telling everyone to kill themselves if we disagreed with them because apparently we’re just a bunch of chauvinistic white males…
That alt was the most heated person in the struggle session
I have a theory 👁
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yeah I thankfully missed that part. definitely a bizarre addition to the story
They’re back if you want to see them in action lol
They’re back ITT!
Lmao do they stalk our accounts or something?
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I think carcosa going to self crit about the moderation process that lead to backlash is the exact reason I like them being a community mouthpiece and decision maker. we all make mistakes, but owning up to that, especially to some people who are pissed off about it, is very good community leadership
I feel like a lot of the mods would do well to consider why this shitty image macro is so descriptive of them
A mod is a janitor. Your job is to keep the vibe up and the place clean. You’re not some ruler or something lol, I get it if this is the first time you’re placed in a position where you can tell people what to do, it can go to your head. It shouldn’t though, you’re just a mod.
You’re not some ruler or something lol
Imagine saying this in my domain
You’re not a protractor or compass either.
First off about Carcosa stepping down, if this is not about your mental health, please don’t. This isn’t on you, if anything you have more than proved your capability of being a great admin by remaining civil and keeping a cool head despite the clusterfuck of a thread that was the last one.
I think everyone here can agree that the old comm had racist connotations once researching the name, I also had no idea until I looked it up. The real problem with the changes is that you’re essentially trying to force a culture change on the site. While I’m personally not at all opposed to having a community for doing more serious counterpropaganda work in an organized manner, this doesn’t cover the need most users here (including myself) have of simply taking a dump on stuff we see that pisses us off, without having to do serious Marxist analysis and refer to sources etc.
I believe we should keep the dredge tank just like it is, rename the dunk tank to one of the names proposed already in a recent post about it, and open up a new community for serious counterpropaganda work.
Though I do feel a part of the issue is also the shitty behaviour of some mods and this being one step in a long line of dogturds shitted out by them.
A lot of the more pointless struggle sessions on this site wouldn’t happen if we could acknowledge that some mods don’t actually want to participate on a website, they want a discord channel that they get to decide how everything goes, but at the same time are addicted to internet points so they can’t leave
I do not desire @CARCOSA@hexbear.net’s resignation or the removal of anti-dunk moderators from the site. I am very angry, I am very upset, but my anger is born not from hatred but from the knowledge that my comrades are knowledgeable, skilled, and capable of great things. I am angry because this seems like a sharp departure from their character.
A brittle sword breaks on the enemy’s armor. A well tempered sword bends and returns to true. If we are to be effective we must be like a tempered sword - Capable of sustaining great impacts without breaking. Part of this is the traditional Marxist practice of self criticism, but another part of this is love.
Having had a chance to sleep on the matter I can see that some of our comrades oppose the dunk tank and the concept of dunking out of a firm belief that it is harmful to their fellows. If I am understanding their position they view abandoning the practice of dunking as a means of protecting their comrades from further harm. They are seeking to act out of a place of compassion.
Others of our comrades have put forward good faith statements expressing that they experience the dunk tank as a safe space in which they can build up their identity and their conviction that the world of liberal capitalism is not inevitable, nor is it natural, nor is it neutral. The group practice of highlighting the absurdity, hypocrisy, and cruelty of liberal behavior shines a bright light that cuts through the fog of capitalist realism. For some of these users that light is the beacon that keeps them off of the rocks of despair and doomerism.
Many of us are extremely isolated due to identity, illness, or simply having no comrades nearby that they can spend time with. For these comrades and others Hexbear is a critical social third space that provides a desperately needed shelter. There is much discussion now of the “Male Loneliness Crisis”. We recognize here that crisis was manufactured by fascists to exploit boys who have been left horribly alienated and isolated by decaying capitalism. Many youth have no strong role models or venues for participating in community. Without these things they are unable to form a strong identity from which they can emerge to critically engage with the world. The identity is the fortress to which they can return to examine what they have learned, choose what to keep and what to discard.
For teenage children that fortress of identity has never been solid. They have always been thrown too and fro by the causal violence and repression of a liberal society largely hostile to their need for safety, comfort, instruction, compassion, and play. Enormous violence has been done to children, and enormous violence has been inflicted by those children, now adults, who were formed in to cruel and violent people.
Thus the fascist constructed the alt-right and the alt-right pipeline using social media as a weapon to direct boys in to hideous misogynistic spaces that swallow them up and barrage them with hatred, fear, and lies as they grow in to men. The result, as we all know, is a dangerous subculture of fascist footsoldiers ready for mobilization.
Why have I discussed this matter? Because it is Hexbear’s equal opposite. Hexbear was born out of state repression of marxist spaces, ordered by the hegemonic demands of capital, carried out by willing collaborators at Reddit. A small but important space for unapologetic Marxists and Anarchists to gather and participate in a venue where there views were not socially ostracized was temporarily created. This space was crushed by the forces of Capital. The great drama of leftist repression carried out in miniature, wiping out one of the few accessible leftist spaces in the Anglosphere.
Hexbear, as silly as this may sound, was the seed of hope carried from that place. We were initially called together by the Chapo Trap House Podcast, who in turn gained fame as surrogates for Bernie Sanders. Chapo Traphouse were the main characters of the “Dirtbag Left”. This social movement arose among young people who recognized that Capitalism had failed utterly, but also that no good faith discussion of leftist theory and praxis would be allowed in Liberal spaces or discourse. Our answer was to go on the attack – Recognizing that we would never be treated with good faith we chose to spurn good faith and tear down the walls of civility behind which the violence of Liberal Democracy is hidden. In embracing vulgarity, mockery, and cruelty we sought to show that Liberal civility was a lie concealing unbelievable inhuman violence. Our vulgar defense of strong humanistic convictions to counter their false politeness and piety. It was, in a fashion, the story of the Emperor’s New Clothes. The Dirtbag Left transgressed against social norms by directly and aggressively mocking the hypocrisy of the empire.
If you’ll pardon me for invoking a favorite of sealioning debate bros, this is a description of the Cynics of old from Christian Agustus Brandius writing in the 18th century
There are four reasons why the Cynics are so named. First because of the indifference of their way of life, for they make a cult of indifference and, like dogs, eat and make love in public, go barefoot, and sleep in tubs and at crossroads. The second reason is that the dog is a shameless animal, and they make a cult of shamelessness, not as being beneath modesty, but as superior to it. The third reason is that the dog is a good guard, and they guard the tenets of their philosophy. The fourth reason is that the dog is a discriminating animal which can distinguish between its friends and enemies. So do they recognize as friends those who are suited to philosophy, and receive them kindly, while those unfitted they drive away, like dogs, by barking at them.
I see in this statement much of the core of Hexbear’s beliefs and methods. First, that this is a group of stoic people who recognize the horrors of the world and do not shy from them. We do not retreat from our terror at the violence we face each day. We do not deny the violence the empire inflicts on people around the world so we can pretend that violence does not exist. We accept this violence, we accept our terror, and we continue to live in spite of it.
Second, that we will not be shamed for knowing what is true. If the Cynics can be called a cult of shamelessness then so can Hexbear. No excuses are made here for racism, transphobia or bigotry. There are no cries of “Free Speech” here. We do not pretend that there is any reason to listen to the hatred of bigots and reactionaries, we do not make apologies for our beliefs, and we do not allow the lies and propaganda of Capitalism to discourage us. This is a place were gender theory, anti-racism, anti-imperialism, intersectional feminism, and anti-capitalism are painted proudly on the banners we carry before us. We will not be shamed for knowing the truth and taking action to defend the truth.
Third, if a dog is a good guard, then so Hexbear is a good… erm… bear… guard. Idk the metaphor isn’t good. None-the-less, this is a place where shitposting and silliness are strongly interwoven with critical analysis, discussion, investigation, and self-criticism. To participate in Hexbear is to be constantly learning. We have members from many parts of the globe and all walks of life. People with very different life experiences can come together to share what they know, remove false beliefs, and grow together. In this manner we guard our theory, our praxis, our comrades, and ourselves.
Fourth; We know who our enemies are! There are no questions here about what forces create and sustain the cruelty and oppression faced by the people of earth! Alone out of all modern ideological frameworks The Left is able to recognize, name, and explain our enemies and their motivations! This gives us enormous power that our enemies lack. The truth is not a perfect weapon but it is a powerful one, and we can wield it as a sword that will remain sharp no matter how outnumbered we are. Our foes are many and mighty, but still they can be cut!
And why have I said all of this?
Hexbear is a community of people who share beliefs, knowledge, and principles. I have not met anyone on Hexbear who is not resolute in their beliefs. And people with strong beliefs often come in to conflict! We have all of us encountered hardship and won knowledge at personal cost, suffering trauma, humiliation, and pain! Knowledge gained at such great cost is very precious and should not be relinquished easily. Moreover, we are all of us surrounded by enemies who exert hegemonic control over the knowledge, beliefs, and values of society. In our day to day lives we constantly encounter enemies who, if they have the power, will harm us. This causes us to adopt an entirely justified vigilance with which we seek to protect ourselves from distortions, propaganda, self-doubt, and even physical violence. This is a very important tool for surviving hellworld!
However, what happens when we at last arrive in a harbor which, if not entirely safe, is at least shielded from the brutality of the storm? We remain warriors, armed and vigilant. We are quick to draw our swords and unleash our battlecries because this is necessary in many other spaces in our lives! When we have lived so long among enemies it is not easy to trust, nor is it safe to trust easily.
So, we often come to blows. These struggle sessions have been a defining feature of the site changing it’s shape and membership numerous times. We have cut away and chased off many people who were not comrades or could not tolerate this community. The community today is smaller, but also focused with a stronger understanding of itself.
When we come to blows we are, generally, not acting in bad faith or for a love of violence. We are people of very strong convictions and when we make a decision we will stick doggedly to that decisio
No longer going to comment on the comm changes because whatever it’s a website but putting my vote in for not allowing @CARCOSA@hexbear.net to resign.
Good idea, lets put their resignation to a vote
thank you
Stalin trying to resign, but the CPSU not letting him vibes
Like some others, I have also come here specifically and only to request that @CARCOSA@hexbear.net remain in their position. If you’re reading this, Carcosa, I have no doubt that you know very well that I am extremely critical of the mods of this site and of any site. And yet I am left with a positive impression of you. You have seemed sincere and and well-intentioned any time I have interacted with you, and my primary issue with your role in the site is that you don’t have the time, energy, or processing power to simply take over all of the admin and mod roles personally.
High praise from you, I am open to returning if the users & mod/admin team want me to but I am stepping away from admin level decision making.
I think everyone wants you to remain if you yourself want to remain. Thank you for your efforts btw o7
I had no idea how apt your “child of Omelas” comparison actually was.
I don’t think I can fully appreciate the energy you put into this place because I’ve never done anything remotely this impactful or popular or complicated or time-consuming, but I still wanted to thank you for it.
Thank You, Carcosa. the hours, effort, and love you have put into the community are invaluable gifts, and you’re giving them to strangers on the internet. I hope life is being as good to you as you are to us. ❤️
Thank You.
Seconding this take; waking up this morning to all this nonsense over what I was reading to be honestly kind of a shortsighted, ‘wannabe-Lemmygrad’ mod decision is… Nah, I’m not about it. I’d rather see the rest of the staff owning their takes, rather than putting it all on CARCOSA to shoulder the way they currently are.
Yea losing carcosa but keeping the clandestine idiot with the same level of analysis as the Hillary and Warren Stan’s with their Bernie Bros/bernie reminds me of my dad nonsense is a huge L lol
would love some expansion on the whole “dunking is white cis guy vibes” thing
Well I don’t like it and since I’m a leftist then everything I dislike is in some way not leftist. I can’t really use any actual words to describe how dunking isn’t leftist, so instead I’m just gonna throw out ol’ reliable and hide behind Carcosa
this is also where I’m falling on it, from where I’m sitting it feels like a case of “I don’t like this, but I can’t articulate why, so I’ll associate it with the ‘bad’ things instead”
Yeah @Moonworm@hexbear.net put it very well in the other thread
Don’t worry, the solution to that problem is obviously to make people engage in the famously non cishet white male activity of writing a debatebro dissertation on why Elon Musk saying he should coup Bolivia is bad
Famous for hating essays and video essays: White people
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HAHAHAAHA HOLY SHIT YOU’RE BACK! THANK YOU SO MUCH! I HAD A BET GOING AH FUCK YES
You just won me $30Removed by mod
Lmao this is the best, I shouldn’t tell you this, but if you misgender me again I win another $5 lol
We’ve already got the ableism, the chauvinism, the “coating in leftist rhetoric” you are so close
same
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The mods/admins who were using the “it’s cishet white guy behavior” angle never attempted to explain why they consider it to be the case. They just asserted it and stuck to it when many marginalized people were dissenting against the rule change. Your 4 paragraph comment spent more time making a good faith argument for the behavior to be white cis etc than hours worth of comments made by the offending mods.
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“Cishet white guy behavior” is perfectly understandable to me as shorthand for the in-group/out-group superiority/inferiority complex that’s plagued this site since the beginning, but I’ve been here continuously from the beginning. It’s a poor signifier for users who haven’t been here the whole time (whether new users or old users that left for a while) or even people with a different perspective/experience of the site.
I’ll defer to you on this since I haven’t been around close to as long and am not marginalized. A big issue I saw was that a lot of marginalized people caught strays for enjoying “cishet white guy behavior” and made it known that they saw it as invalidating.
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In response to @CARCOSA@hexbear.nets last post in the previous thread and their announcement about stepping down
Carcosa, please don’t step down. There is nothing wrong with making mistakes, what is wrong is not reflecting upon those mistakes, and you are very capable of self-reflection. Expecting someone to operate without error forever is ludicrous, an impossible demand. You are about the best person we could have in the position. You are patient, considerate and capable of balancing a great many groups, even when getting treated like the whipping boy.[1]
You haven’t made any real errors in handling all this. Mistakes were made, but that’s not really on you. It’s obvious you’ve got a clique of mods that whip up a frenzy among themselves and then shield their shitty opinions with leftist rhetoric. Ironically that is what makes hexbear most like a real-world org lol. You probably interact with them a lot and you experience their positive side as well. Something like this was bound to happen with that going on for long enough time. You get lambasted by these dorks, they use rhetoric like calling the users “cishet white men” despite most of this sites’ userbase being queer.I’ve been thinking about this since the last post about chauvinism “scaring people away” and then looking in the thread to see how it was celebrated. Hell, I’ve been thinking about since we talked about closing the news mega because some users didn’t like “the vibe”. They talked of chauvinism back then too. Funny how it seems to mean “things I don’t like” and not actually being descriptive of chauvinism.
Just like in this thread, the very same people who act like toxic assholes were partying that now “finally” hexbear was becoming a good site open for all. As long as those people completely line up with what the little clique act like. I didn’t want to say anything at the time, but I probably should have. I can’t speak on behalf of women, on account of not being one, but I personally do not experience this site as inherently masculine.The only thing that really turns me off from this site, is the toxic and hostile clique that for some reason is allowed to act in a way that would get all others banned, and for some reason are listened to and taken more seriously than the rest of the site. There’s a group who seems to think this place is their personal project, despite just being a link in a long chain of mods, despite not being here for very long[2] The main thing that keeps me from recommending this place to my girlfriends - and my enbiefriends - and my boyfriends - is that clique of needlessly hostile, agressive stereotype of an online leftist. Shit I wouldn’t be surprised if one of them is actually employed by my boss[3].
I guess I was getting a bit sidetracked in the previous paragraph, but I’m trying to illustrate a point. You’re interacting with these people a lot and due to your reasoning (which makes great sense for sure, just unfortunate that the people you got sucked. I guess it is true that those who want to be mods, generally are not people that should be mods lol) you weigh their viewpoints highly. Which makes sense. Their viewpoints just suck ass, because they’re shitty people. This would of course result in you not being able to foresee something like this happening - Though you probably expected a bit of a struggle sesh, but not this dumpsterfire. And then when people react as we’ve reacted,[4] of course you would try to handle it. And being a good considerate person, you make sure to loop in the other side - the mods who made this decision. So you listen to the mods about how to handle this strugglesesh. The same mods who are chauvinistic toxic cliquey assholes. Listening to their advice has then only gone on to make things worse. You, being a good person, have tried to handle things as best you could. Releasing statements to make the process more transparent, replying to users with statements you’ve been adviced about from the mods, constantly trying to keep people informed without blowing the lid off things. Trying to stop drama comms and so on make great sense.
Taking the actions you’ve taken throughout this thread makes sense, please don’t beat yourself up about it.
Don’t get me wrong, I am mad and disappointed, but not at you. I think the fact you are still as patient as you are, as able to keep a light tone, able to listen to - or at the very least appear to be listening to - a userbase that has been (rightfully) inflamed, is impressive and should be applauded. The fact you’re not a toxic douchebag after interacting with that set of mods for so long is very telling of your character. I’m not trying to kiss ass here, I just think it seems like you’re a bit down about how this whole thing has gone, and I really need you to understand you handled it about as best as it could be handled, given your colleagues being completely useless rags.Please don’t go away or hand the reins over to one of those pissbabies carcosa, please don’t let that clique ruin this place. Please do not step down. You are incredibly important to the health of this site and, speaking on a personal note, you are a fantastic person to have around and I am happy to see you in the position at the helm of the site
Going forward
I don’t think this is the last time this situation will erupt, if nothing changes about how moderation is handled and how site changes are handled.
Keeping the two comms open just leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Not kicking the mods who wrote that shit out is also a bad sign, for the direction this whole thing is headed.
I would really recommend that mod discussions aren’t anonymous anymore. Have the matrix board or whatever it is, but make it so everyone can go and look what is being posted, just like with the modlog. The only time discussions should be anonymous, should be when there is a risk to operational security, and not a vague risk, an actual one. It should also be announced whenever those anonymous discussions take place and explained why they have to be anonymous.
Early in the site days we went away from displaying which mod took an action in the modlog, and just blaming everything on automod. I think reverting that would go a very long way to bust a lot of this cliquey shit.
When users notice certain users get special treatment, they get banned for commenting on it, until the situation becomes so egregious that it cannot be hidden anymore. Not allowing the userbase to call out bad mod practice, is also not good. We’ve closed both userunion and feedback because the mods don’t like the “drama” - Getting called out for shitty behaviour. We really need a comm where the userbase is free to voice concerns and grievances. That would also go a long way towards avoiding these situations in the future. And this time mods shouldn’t remove posts just because they dislike them, that’s pissbaby shit.Edit: Please don’t step down because you feel like you’ve done wrong. If you ever do step down, let it be because you need time away, not because of some dumbass strugglesession, the site would be worse off without you. Especially in the middle of this shitstorm.
Edit: Formatting
Sorry for using a gendered term, but I think they were always boys ↩︎
not that longevity matters, because the site doesn’t belong to anyone, but if we were gonna have to entertain that silly idea, it most certainly does not belong to someone who doesn’t know about John Kerry or whatever. See how silly that sounds? That’s because the site is what the site is, it doesn’t belong to anyone, it doesn’t need to be managed. That’s not good for “culture” or for “growth” or for whatever other argument these asscracks cook up next. ↩︎
If some mod is gonna remove this for fed-jacketing, just give me a heads-up instead and I’ll edit out the obvious joke ↩︎
Which has been very reasonable until getting misgendered, where it then became even more reasonable ↩︎
I don’t want to lose one of our most visible, transparent admins. I don’t know the rest from a bar of soap let alone the others who were yucking ut up like old pals in the 1.2k comment prior thread. L for public relations and makes the site management even more opaque imo
Edit: it’s not like we were calling for their head or anything either :/ igi if they want to step fown but still :(
Yeah there’s been one good admin and that’s been carcosa. One person who has done an incredible job of actually letting this site be transparent, despite there being an obvious clique who just wants to run it all like their shitty little mean girl clubhouse
I don’t know the rest from a bar of soap let alone the others who were yucking it up like old pals in the 1.2k comment prior thread. L for public relations and makes the site management even more opaque imo
yeah, this is an unfortunate (but potentially unavoidable?) side effect of how we’re doing admin anonymity, only very outspoken admins become familiar to the community, even if the rest have been here the whole time, which I believe most have, none of us feel like we know them.
the gags in the old thread I thought were mostly funny/fine but the overall point of “I don’t know these people” stands
Struck me as a bit tone deaf/assumed familiarity (even though they’re essentially the same people who’d be posting alongside us on alts) given the context. Also that jt was only the recently appointed admin coming in to comment with none of the others responsible for the decision just highlighted their absence. I know this is internet drama but it’s left a serious sour taste in my mouth :/
Struck me as a bit tone deaf/assumed familiarity
yeah fair
Also that jt was only the recently appointed admin coming in to comment with none of the others responsible for the decision just highlighted their absence.
I think a lot of this has just been messy because of timezones tbh. the other admin accounts are pretty much inactive, and carcosa can’t be online 24/7
I think a lot of this has just been messy because of timezones tbh. the other admin accounts are pretty much inactive, and carcosa can’t be online 24/7
Also fair ty for giving me a bit of extra perspective
carcosa can’t be online 24/7
and good post
I don’t know if I’ll be able to respond to all of this and I suppose most of it isn’t relevant to me as I will consider returning to the admin team and even to continue making announcements here and there but I am going to step away from decision-making. I brought these mods onto the team, I set up the decision-making process, I drafted the statement and made the final edit on the follow-up comment. I believe there needs to be accountability and me allowing the old & new admins to take the site forward is an appropriate consequence.
You don’t need to respond to anything in my post, no worries. There’s a whole thread calling for your return.
Carcosa you are too good. I hope you will step back into decision making, but I understand your thought process. I disagree with it. There should be accountability, but you’ve been held accountable. You’ve offered to step down, and you’ve been dunked on like none other. Not every mistake needs to be punished with drastic consequences, I know this will be a learning experience and to be frank I’d rather have you involved in the process, instead of someone who will then have to make the same experience themselves. You are knowledgeable and your input is valuable, it would be a shame not to be able to draw on that for the big and small decisions.
If some mod is gonna remove this for fed-jacketing, just give me a heads-up instead and I’ll edit out the obvious joke
Guess what
Chickenbutt?
Exactly 💯
:sweat: anyway I edited it
Edit: Moved to be it’s own post, not a response in the thread
Seriously, this is completely fine.
I have some qualms, but honestly don’t have the energy or desire to relitigate it in this thread. Hard agree about them being a good admin
I would have phrased it more or less the same myself, had I been in carcosas position, because I expect that phrasing would be the most likely to get them to go along with it.
capitulating to liberals in this way is kinda like the old quote about nonviolence, it only works if your enemy has a conscience, and most liberals have none.
But yeah, I don’t think it was horrible or malicious, just the timing made for a bad look. carcosa said as much, and I’m satisfied with that acknowledgement, I wish they would stay.
Yeah that’s a fine way of going about it
Yeah I would do that too in order to get someone from a hostile instance to help me out. I lie all the time in my day to day life when I interact with people I have to convince to do something. That’s what you do.
The dumbest struggle session of your life so far