Ya I find the argument compelling but does it address what people mean when they say decadence? I will maybe have to go learn about the idea better because it seems easily defeated. Is there anything labeled decadent that your counter argument doesn’t apply to?

maybe I’ll share that as its own post later.

please at me if you can remember :)

Trans Liberation & Marxism: Is Gender Identity Actually Anti-Materialist? | Let’s Talk Patriarchy - I put it into my phone for listening, thanks

Feinberg: I read the main works years ago and I don’t think is going to be helpful here unless he also wrote totally different lesser-known stuff someone could specifically recommend. My recollection is that he was writing for a popular audience who either are trans people themselves or are friendly to the idea. And sprinkling some marxism in. Certainly he must have encountered people like this in his life though, so maybe there’s something.

The video on Marxism Today was really good especially towards the end the part about dialectics and sexual metaphysics. I’m going to follow the citations on those ones.

yeah sorry you’re not a comrade if you hate trans people

Snap. I don’t think it would be wrong ascribe some of this to the more repressed sort of calvinism and I doubt the person in question would even deny this. It has been present all along accompanied by personality traits favoring adherence to group norms and a feeling that people who draw to much attention to themselves are unseemly. This of course can be very useful in an organizer. But on a personal level I can see how a baseline sort of uneasiness with people who are (or as perceived as) “weird” could open the door a crack and then these stupid ideas come flooding in to justify it politically.

If you have to you may need to go around their back to stop them from getting significant influence in their orgs.

This is a long-time, established organizer and I am far away. There is nothing I can do about it. This whole swing has been pretty public, that’s the only reason it came to my attention, so I’m sure everyone knows about it. You know how it is though, it’s hard for organizations/movements to give up on people who are otherwise effective and reliable. Efforts to do so can be viewed as trying to enforce an unrealistic ideological purity which is not viable in a mass organization.

One thing that has surprised me in finding out what this person has been up to is the complete lack of political and organizational discipline exhibited. It’s one of the most useful things they taught to me about, having come out of a much more freewheeling context previously. Of course they’ve kind of fit their politics somewhat into this stupid obsession, but when I have read some of the stuff they have written on the subject, it’s really fucking weak. Like there is a lot of times when they are writing about their feelings of discomfort and trying to pull the reader along in feeling it as well. I never would have anticipated someone who’s situational analysis can be sharp as a razor blade would ever be doing political writings focusing around getting the willies— on any subject. We don’t organize a union because our boss has bad breath. We don’t organize against a landlord because they have terrible fashion sense. We don’t organize against a politician because we disapprove of their sex life. We have principled political and material reasons for doing these things. Even if our enemies may be unsettling in an interpersonal way, you might mention it here or there in a meme but needing to have it be at the center belies to me how shitty the underlying ideas are. (And makes it look more like some sort of creeping fascism than misdirected communism in which case I really doubt there is anything I will be able to do.) And I am really surprised that this person has allowed themselves to be snookered in this way to replace political with emotional analysis.

ha! I have considered asking them if they have come into the employ of the state. or if they have considered that they might have been the target either individually or as part of a group, of a campaign of distraction/diversion/division. Even if I was completely neutral on the idea of trans people, I would be able to see that this person’s eyes are no longer on the prize.

Not sure it’s a winning argument directly. If I was targeting people around them to try to minimize their influence I would use it.

You’ve never gotten a leftist to become trans affirmative/neutral because you never had to try? Or because the ones you met are all so entrenched that you failed?

I am definitely concerned about being used as a token or otherwise inadvertently feeding the beast. Like if I try to provide anything with nuance, my words can get picked apart and weaponized.

I think this person is already alienated somewhat from their local left over this issue and its concequences… But to whatever extent this is the case it would be seen as throwing off dead weight---- pretenders who don’t have what it takes to really engage in struggle with working class people. Although I’m sure some will just ignore it for the same of an ongoing relationship with a successful organizer if not ideological agreement.

But now that’s happened I guess there are other people around, cheering them on. Those people’s opinions will be super important and nothing I say or do can replace the value. Changing course now would lead to real isolation. sigh

For example, look at Dave Chappelle. Though he’s not a legit TERF, it’s been speculated that part of the reason he took the transphobic path was out of a real and valid anger at how white queer people weaponize racism against Black men while still claiming the oppressed class status. I don’t think that justifies hating trans people but it is a valid criticism since many white trans people are still fine being racist (see: lib trans people supporting Israel)

That may be so, but why the fuck did Chappelle go out of his way to stan for E_LO~N and even do the “lol ur poor” thing against people booing E_LO~N at his show? Why was he defending an Apartheid billionaire manchild known for normalized racism in his businesses, and having nonwhites-designated sections at his factories called shit like “The Plantation?”

all good points.

On the one hand I know that others have attempted to reach this person to pull them out. And on the other hand, there are anti-trans people who are in close physical proximity. So it’s low chance. But maybe with what I can say combined with what other people can say, and do, maybe after a while it’ll click.

I will probably try to use my distance as a virtue. I don’t have any skin in any organizational disputes. I’m not trying to get anything. I am not allied to any faction. I honestly feel sad that my old friend has been diminished in this way. It’s not hypothetical to describe them as a wrecker; from their own description of it, which is from a such a warped perspective, it seems the case. But on the left we have to have a bit of a contrarian streak don’t we. So sometimes we are able to displace blame from ourselves because otherwise we’d take the whole weight of capitalism on our shoulders. So it can be hard to recognize when we are in fact to blame.

The Gender Accelerator ALWAYS fits