Its still a tight race in the swing states. Crazy to think anyone supports this guy. He has no respect for the country, or anyone in it. There’s so many people blindly voting against their own interests. I just don’t get it.
25 years of organized propaganda (fox news, talk radio, etc.). I live amongst Trump supporters, they truly believe prices will come down and they will make more money.
my mom believes that we’re being “invaded” by illegals. i said, “stop using that term. it’s offensive and racist.”
“that’s what they are. they broke the law,” she shot back.
“and you’re offensive and racist. and i suppose that means you’re an illegal, too, since you jaywalked earlier?” I replied.
“illegal immigrants are felons!” she shouted at me.
“like Trump? so, he’s a 34-times illegal, then? and you’re voting for him?”
“that’s different!” she screamed
there’s no reasoning with these people
You can’t reason people out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into
Ain’t that a fucking truth. Ironically, it was my grandfather, my mother’s father, who first told me that
my favorite wisdom that has been passed down and not followed is: “Don’t believe everything you see on the Internet”
Gullible turds.
Well put. They’re just following the orders they get from fox “news”
trump the illegal, I like it.
Third generation draft dodger.
His grandfather escaped Germany so he didn’t get drafted for WWI.
All in the family.
Ivan the terrible.
Putin the humiliated.
Trump the illegal.
To give Ivan some credit, his title is so old that it originally meant something more like Ivan the Terri_fying_
It’s my understanding that illegally entering the country is a misdemeanor, and illegally reentering the country is a felony. It is an amplifying action for a huge number of other felonies though. Am I wrong? 8* Usc section 1325 vs 8 Usc section 1326.
It was always my understanding that entering the country to claim asylum was not illegal at all
It’s also a civil violation, not a criminal one.
Not all laws are just.
I was on a grand jury once and most of the charges were for marijuana. I tried to convince the jury we should nullify, because sending teenagers to jail for pot is cruel. No one took me up on this. (A grand jury is simple majority, and the defense has no role in the proceedings. Side note: every time a cop isn’t indicated it’s because the prosecutor didn’t want to.)
There was a little old white lady who sat behind me on the jury. She said well that’s the law and if it’s bad we should change it. Fine, I said. But imagine it’s 1950 and you’re on a trial for a black man who sat at an all white’s counter. Would you indict? Would that be the right thing to do?
She went, “oh… mm I don’t know”. And I don’t think she meant because of peer pressure or imagining she only had the perspective of a white person from the 50s. I think she was just a very Lawful-Neutral person.
Anyway. The point I was trying to get at is a lot of people have garbage moral reasoning.
Fox News is absolutely one of the cause, but we can’t ignore Rush Limbaugh. He corrupted SO MANY people over the years, it’s absurd. I feel like a lot of people forget about that.
yep, racism is a helluva drug. It’s the poor brown peoples’ fault, not the billionaires who actually decide what happens.
Conservatives live on symbols. The Bible, the Constitution, the flag. They don’t even understand them and don’t need to because it’s really all about their emotions. They are in it to win and to feel confident, not to rule.
Team sports.
“My team win, your team lose.”
The extent of their thought process.
this is why high school pep rallies were invented-- it takes a special kind of stupid to bleat about “individual liberty” while pledging your soul to a party of collectivist ultranationalism which “others” everyone who doesn’t toe the line
you are free to do as we say, or else
“We are free to do what we want, and we are free to tell you what to do.”
“Freedom to do what we want! Freedom for you to do what we want.”
More like if their team win EVERYONE loses.
For them thats not a bug, thats a feature. “Zero sum” is baked into the foundation of conservative ideology and policy. For them to win, you have to lose. If you we are winning somehow, that must mean they are losing somehow and to them that is not acceptable even if they have no way of quantifying or qualify how they would be losing.
deleted by creator
Nobody asked him to run in 2016… he only did because he thought he could hustle the donation process to pay back his debts to Russia, but then the whole of GOP decided to back him, because who else could they unite on?
GOP is a coalition of people who can only find common ground with others on the absolutely lowest common denominator. Trump is just that. The uninvited but seemingly popular stranger at a party where everyone hates each other.
The look on his face when he won… He never intended to win. Now he has to, because he fucked up, and will need the power to dodge the consequences…
If Democrats win it is clear that the GOP party is fucking over. They might actually break up into different directions if they lose hard enough.
no respect for the country, or anyone in it.
that’s why those people love trump. because the venn diagram of people he hates somewhat overlaps the circle of people they hate. and since they’re stupid, it doesn’t even matter that they are themselves within the circle of people trump hates
Kind of like Hitler saying “We kill all non-Blonde haired blue eye’d Aryan Germans” and then the Japanese were like “May we join in?”
If Hitler had won, there would have been a Nazi/German War sometime in the 60s, after he sent all the Russians to concentration camps, and taken over all of Russia.
Granted, I’m veering off into alternate history, but you can see my point, right?
why turn to alternate history when actual history works just fine?
His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.
https://phdn.org/archives/www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/documents/osssection3pt1.htm
I think the World in general would be better off if Trump loses.
Not just Trump, the entire GOP needs to take a serious, undeniable shellacking this election cycle. The sort of loss that forces them, and it won’t be easy, to do some serious introspection regarding the future existence of their party. We will need to force them to lose so badly that they’re toxicity is blatant, absolutely radioactive. At all levels from city dog catcher on up. If Harris/Walz doesn’t have a sympathetic Congress they won’t be able to pull our proverbial bacon out of the fire.
Yup. I’m no republican, but the country would be better if they jettison the rightmost christiofascist wing of the party to the fringe that they are.
Again not that I’m seeking it, but a more centrist “sane, sober” republican party would be a real challenge for centrist democrats to contend with.
It’s like they’re currently in a ketamine induced fugue state. Some day, maybe still a few years from now, the record is gonna stop and they’ll realize the palin-jones-trump arc has run it’s course.
Who is the Jones in the palin-jones-trump arc?
Alex jones, Infowars
Thanks. He did cross my mind but didn’t fit as a politician.
I ruled out Paula Jones pretty quickly.
For.sure. I just kinda made it up ya know?
I feel like this wacky shit started when McCain brought on palin to fire up the base.
Jones aligned the crazy conspiracy theorists with a political group
Trump refined brand and method into a singular figure
Is it weird that my mind went to Jim Jones? The cult leader who poisoned everyone with kool-aid?
I’m crossing my fingers that Florida flips, because IF Florida flips there’s a really good chance Texas flips too. At least I hope so, based on the trends in the polls. But then it’ll be a real landslide 🌊
If that happens, Harris would probably win by a larger nationwide margin than Obama 2008. Not holding out for that.
It is interesting that Florida and Texas have about the same margin in polls, though.
There is no amount of introspection that could accomplish that, especially due to a mere election loss. At this point, the GOP is an amalgam of a cult and a criminal conspiracy that’s so far down the deep end of fascism that nothing short of being dismantled by the DOJ under racketeering and/or insurrection charges or being defeated militarily will put it off its current path.
I mean, if you can think of any organization in history similar to Trump’s MAGA GOP that has rehabilitated itself without externally-applied force or violence, I’d love to hear it 'cause it would make me feel more hopeful. I, for one, don’t know that it’s ever happened any time in human history.
Question is…if Trump loses in 2024, does the GOP let him run AGAIN in 2028? Because I’d be fine if he keeps running, and keeps losing. And the 2028 race would presumably be against Harris. So I’d LOVE for him to lose twice to a black woman. Just because I know HE cares so much about gender and race, and it would be the one thing that would crush his poor little ego.
I strongly suspect his dementia-riddled brain will be too far gone for another run in 4 years. Hope so anyway.
They would ABSOLUTELY let him run again in '28 if he wanted to. They won’t like it but those chickenshits are too cowardly to stand up to him. He is single handedly ruining the GOP and I’m here for it.
They used to be able to deny or explain away their racism, sexism, xenophobia, and corruption, but Trump has forced them to go full mask off. They can’t deny it anymore and neither can anyone else who still calls themselves a Republican. I’m begging the universe to let this motherfucker run again.
So they created a monster and the monster is now out of control. What a surprise, huh?
Well, I’ve got something to tell you: fuck you and all your shitty GOP. If you didn’t see this coming, you only deserve an absolute defeat and disappearing into oblivion.
But what’s actually happening here is not that. No, what’s happening here is that your fucking party got so unhinged (by your own hands) that only the most deranged people are willing to vote for you, and that’s scary, right? That’s scary because there are not enough wackos to make you win an election, and now you’re really fearing the fact that you might be losing elections for generations thanks to all the damage your monster did to yourselves.
Well, you know what? I’m glad. I’m happy you’re so fucked right now that you prefer losing an election over winning it because of how much damage the win can do to yourselves.
What’s crazy is they aren’t saying that Trump is too extreme, they are complaining that he isn’t extreme enough.
If Trump gets in, we set back the pro-life cause and free markets by a generation at least
They are mad that he’s not campaigning on a total abortion ban and complete federal government shutdown.
Everyone will be better off if Trump loses. Billionaires, Republicans, progressives, climate activists, Wall Street bankers, and congresspeople of every party.
Trump’s second term will be a Project 2025-enabled attempt to simply destroy the United States government and inflame a civil war in order to keep MAGA in power forever. I guess under the assumption that it’ll work smoothly and everything will continue as normal after, just with MAGA people in charge of the magically-still-working-smoothly machinery of the country?
It’s like those people who bought plane tickets to January 6th, thinking they would go there and violently overthrow the transfer of power and kill any congresspeople that stood in the way of it, and then they could go home and show up to work with Trump now in power and everything would go back to normal.
It’s naive to the point of absurd self delusion. And roughly 95% of our media and government is going along with the delusion. Anything reporting on “Trump is ahead in polls in Wisconsin” instead of “Trump wants to kill anyone who opposes him and destroy the Department of Education and deploy the military against any domestic opposition” is feeding into the comforting cognitive dissonance that things will be within the normal parameters if Trump wins and abortion or “the economy” will be on the table as issues, and not “what can we do to get water and charge my phone today” and “which side’s forces is my governor on the side of”.
Fact check:
Claim: Everyone will be better off if Trump loses
Verdict: False. Trump will not be better off if he loses
Counterpoint: he might die throwing a tantrum after losing.
We can’t talk to the dead, how can we say for sure he’s not better that way?
deleted by creator
Well he might not go down in history as the guy that destroyed American democracy. That might be a good outcome in the long run
It’s like those people who bought plane tickets to January 6th, thinking they would go there and violently overthrow the transfer of power and kill any congresspeople that stood in the way of it, and then they could go home and show up to work with Trump now in power and everything would go back to normal.
Do you remember when armed militants invaded the Malheur wildlife refuge in Oregon, setting up what was sure to be a long, violent standoff with police and military?
2 weeks in, they arrested one of them. He’d taken a stolen ranger truck to get supplies at Safeway.
Thank you. It boggles my mind how almost everybody’s just whistling past the graveyard on this!
It’s naive to the point of absurd self delusion. And roughly 95% of our media and government is going along with the delusion.
I think everyone paying attention is fatigued by everything being the end of the world. Trump fetishists aren’t going to change their minds and everyone who sees the danger he represents don’t need to be told. The sky has been falling for eight years with Trump and so far nothing has even slowed him down (aside from the 2020 loss).
We’re almost done. Trump does not have another run in him. He’s half crazed now, by 2028 he’ll have his hands full dealing with the dementia. All that matters is that he loses. If Kamala wins, Trump is no longer America’s problem.
Personally I’m more concerned with what’s going on in red state governments and their efforts to pass heinous laws that will get challenged to the supreme court and erode the rights of all Americans. Unless Kamala expands the court of the house impeaches some justices, it doesn’t really matter who is in the oval office.
I’ve been saying since the primaries that the best plausible scenario was for Trump to get the nomination, then botch the election and drag the weirdos and loyalists in his party down with him.
Trump has spent years purging anyone that was moderate, even slightly principled, or just willing to put the good of the country ahead of his gigantic ego. Not to mention the way they treat the party’s warchest as their personal piggy bank, and it’s rank and file staff and volunteers as disposable. He’s made a party that’s blindly loyal to him, and which is a huge threat to the country, but which is ultimately far less effective as a party.
A more normal candidate would likely be dominating the race given public opinion on the current administration and the economy, to say nothing of the obscene amount of money being thrown around. But instead, Trump looks like he will cause the Republicans to underperform for the fourth time in a row.
If Trump loses dramatically enough and drags his people down with him, the party will likely collapse in on itself as opposing factions get locked in a power struggle. Plenty of big donors just want lower taxes and to not have to deal with regulations, and they will probably want to shift the party away from the MAGA weirdness and back towards something normal that isn’t going to alienate voters on all sides of the aisle. I wouldn’t be surprised if a few of the more prominent anti-trump Republicans suddenly got a big boost in support, and a lot of Trump’s parasites suddenly find themselves getting driven out.
Best scenario for who?
I think the best scenario for everyone is that Trump loses, Dems win Congress control back, and Harris absolutely fucking nails this job and gets another term.
The best scenario is that the Republicans get destroyed so hard they stop being a party, and leftists take over, thus making democrats the right wing of mainstream politics while remaining approximately where they are on policy.
MAGA assholes overtook that party. It’s no longer recognized as “Republican”. Those assholes should be discharged with absolute hatred.
Fiscal conservatives haven’t existed since before Reagan, so that’s long dead.
The best scenario is that the Republicans get destroyed so hard they stop being a party, and leftists take over,
I think it’s already been proven that D will fight against leftists way harder than they fight against R. I’ll never trust a Republican as long as I live after what the past 8 years have shown me lurks beneath the more polite moderate bigotry and racism they mostly adhered to in the past, but as much as I love the idea that somehow our politics moves left after this, the plethora of cries for Kamala to move to the “center” (or praising her for doing so) has me very skeptical and disheartened that any of the events of recent history or the imminent death knell of Trumpism is going to do anything better than slow our rightward march.
Democrats treat anyone at the Bernie level and beyond like they are some kind of albatross. I don’t see that changing.
As with so many of my opinions about the presumed Harris presidency I want to be wrong, but all I see is Dems getting more conservative and R trying (probably successfully) to claim some “Well thank goodness we finally got rid of those jokers” high ground after Trump is gone.
deleted by creator
Best scenario probably results in the dissolution of the Republican party, and its key players in jail, dead, or otherwise removed from the political landscape.
But the roots of the problems there- the xenophobia, the tribalism, the (deeply ironic considering some of their slogans) supremacy of feelings over facts - that stuff isn’t likely to go away. So even if the Republican party collapsed, there’s still plenty of people ready to believe outsiders are bad, climate change isn’t real, etc etc.
I don’t really know how to fix that. Probably spend 100 years investing in education for all, removing lead and other toxins from the environment, and smashing apart anything that consolidates too much power (eg: Facebook, Sinclair media)
Probably spend 100 years investing in education for all, removing lead and other toxins from the environment, and smashing apart anything that consolidates too much power (eg: Facebook, Sinclair media)
Well, neither party is going to do those things, so we’re pretty much fucked. (And that’s not a both sides argument, it’s just reality.)
At least there’s been some anti trust movement lately! The Democratic party is much better about that than the Republican
The Democratic party is much better about that than the Republican
They are better in every way honestly, but increasingly I’m concluding still not good enough.
Your scenario and mine would go hand in hand, we’re just focusing on different things.
My point was that the Republican party would benefit from a significant change in direction back towards something more normal. And the country as a whole would be better off as well, because there aren’t many upsides to teetering on the edge of a fascist dictatorship, and anything that moves us away from the precipice is a good thing.
It goes to show how republicans are cowards. They don’t want the wrath of MAGAs so they nominate him hoping he’d just lose and go away.
They also know that with no Trump, they lose all the crazies, and the crazies are the only thing even keeping them in the game right now. So they pandered to them, and drove away all the vaguely normal Ron Swanson types who might have voted for them in the dim and distant past.
They need to go away, and regroup, and come back with something that isn’t… this.
deleted by creator
They have the power to make this happen.
So do something about it you cowards.
They didn’t, when I’m 2020 he attempted (and failed) a coup. If that wasn’t your wake up call, I don’t know what would be.
I’m aware they aren’t going to do shit. My comment was more to put their self-pity in its proper context and to show that this situation is entirely of their own creation.
hey now. McConnell furrowed his brow sternly.
They will be better off, but not just if Trump loses, they have to de-MAGA the whole party, then they’ll be in good shape.
they have to de-MAGA the whole party, then they’ll be in good shape.
Hopefully not because conservatism itself is a morally and intellectually bankrupt position. So I’d be much happier if they burn themselves to the ground, and/or conservatism becomes unpalatable to the vast majority.
I think it’s a generational thing. As boomers die off their horrible values are passed on less and less. The few people in younger generations who got absorbed in racist, fascist and misogynist populism may die clinging to those values, but it will be harder to spread to the next generation in a post Trump loss climate. (Hopefully post Putin loss climate by then too!)
There is room for a true conservative party and a true liberal party, right now we have neither.
What does conservative mean that’s not "there must be in groups for the law to protect but not bind, and outgroups for the law to bind but not protect "?
Conservative ideas like "we should just let people pour mercury into the river " and "it’s cool to have kids work in factories " and “you entered into the contract willingly so you can’t sue Disney for killing your wife” and "how about women can’t vote " and “we don’t need a fire department we’ll just oh shit the whole town burned down? To shreds, you say?” are all bad ideas, and that’s about the tier of thought I expect from conservatives.
You are confusing conservatism with fascism, and I don’t blame you or anyone else for not being able to tell the difference at this point.
It’s important to first understand that conservatism is a descriptor for a concept rather than a grouping of people. Yes, I know you can categorize certain people as “conservatives,” but doing that has the pitfall we are seeing now, where they start describing themselves as such and then proceed to degrade ideologically over time until their beliefs and actions do not even resemble the original meaning, all the while clinging to this tribalistic, meaningless word that they choose to identify as.
Conservatism is supposed to be about conserving values that, ideally, you or your parents fought to establish in the first place. Things like “regulation that prevents mercury from being legally dumped in rivers,” and “you have to be of at least a set minimum age for employers to be allowed to hire you” are laws that prior generations bled for to bring to reality. These are, by definition, conservative values because someone else established them before your time. We want to conserve them, because the benefits they bring us are still very relevant to us today. They are worth holding onto.
The second thing to understand is that conservatism, and its converse liberalism, are both relative terms. “Conservatives” do not actually have an objective hard set of views or dogma, otherwise they’d still be clawing at the dirt in caves while praying to the sun, and “liberals” do not have some sort of objective hard set of opposing views either, otherwise they’d be conservative by definition.
A healthy society utilizes both of these concepts in delicate balance–even down to the individual person holding viewpoints rooted in both preserving some values, while simultaneously working to change or enhance others. Again, conservatism and liberalism shouldn’t be seen as belonging to opposing groups of people, but as concepts that we all use every day without even thinking about it.
Conservatism is a neutral stance. It represents stagnation, which isn’t always bad if used to protect the right things. Liberalism is the progressive stance. It moves us forward and helps us understand what is good and what is better.
However, conservatism can also (and often does) start moving backwards instead. That is called regression, and is exactly what you were referring to with that list of regressive ideas. Most of those were defeated long ago by progressives of the time, many of whom paid dearly to make sure that their kids wouldn’t have to suffer the same way they did. Spitting on their graves by rolling back their hard-fought victories is not “conservative” at this point, only regressive, and it should start being correctly identified and called out as such before it’s too late to stop it from regressing further into the worst case scenario.
I think that’s a highly, highly idealized idea of what conservatism means, and as someone in my fifties I don’t think that has been seen in US politics since my parents were children (Edit: and in thinking about this comment after leaving it, I’m not even sure who I’m imagining from that time who fits the bill - Eisenhower maybe? Gotta love this from him.) - and we all know the social ills we’ve had to stamp out since then. Those sort of “principled” conservatives may have been “better” people than the trumpists, but were still not compatible with any modern non-regressive attitudes regarding LGBTQ+ rights, modern views of women’s rights or the degree of agency that modern women have, nor modern understanding of racism and bigotry within individuals and systemically throughout our institutions.
In the same way that communism has enough widely known examples of how badly it can go that most people in the US run from it politically* (I acknowledge people disagree with that assessment, and that it’s oversimplified, but I’m not here for that argument - it’s how most people feel, deserved or not) there is or should be no one with a modern understanding of conservatism who doesn’t likewise run from it. How can a conservative party exist in the US which doesn’t get overrun by maga-types? What other party would they join? Even the Democrats are too conservative for many (including me), but the magas aren’t going to run there for sure.
*I frankly think that a hundred years from now the US will be held up as an example of the perils of rampant, corrupt, unchecked capitalism in a way that is viewed equally abhorrently as folks from my generation and earlier viewed the USSR and other “communist” nation examples. The air quotes are a nod to those who argue that none of those commonly touted examples of the ills of communism were truly communist nations, though again I’m not here for that argument.
I appreciate the lengthy and well written response. But I don’t really agree.
When the current state of things is bad, pushing to conserve it is also bad.
Sometimes things can seem good from the perspective of the hypothetical conservative, but actually be pretty bad from a more zoomed out one. For example, someone might want to “conserve” their suburban lifestyle. They might not realize the racism that went into establishing it. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Color_of_Law is a pretty good book.) Worse, they might support the racism. “Our parents fought to keep people of life ancestry together. That’s just how the world is. Those people should live somewhere else.”. There are countless other examples. “My dad employed children in his factory and my golly I want to do the same.” Something being a tradition doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.
Conservatives do not have a lock on keeping good laws. Progressives do not want to change things for the sake of change. No progressive is going to look at a law that says you have to be 18 to work dangerous machinery and be like, “This is a good law, but we can’t leave it as-is because then we’d be a conservative.” Progressives would also support a law against dumping mercury in the river, because the underlying values (“don’t poison people for profit”, i guess?) are progressive values.
I think the underlying value system of conservatism is hierarchy. The world must have hierarchy. You see this with like monarchy and nobility, you see this with the rich being treated differently than the poor, and you see this with racism. Other ideas like “Oh, we should preserve our traditions” are mostly paint jobs on top of “There must be outgroups to bind and ingroups to protect”.
I saw a clip of an ex-republican voter saying the republican party is like a mattress with bedbugs. You can’t save it by spraying with insecticide, you have to take it out and burn it and buy a new mattress. I thought that was a pretty good analogy, but the bedbugs/magas will still be out there and there’s a huge number of them.
The Reaganites are eager to get back to the business of cutting corporate taxes and welfare and the highly profitable war on peace. They don’t wanna deal with Chumps drama anymore.
The party is already in Hospice.
I’m subjected to a few hours of Fox News/right-wing YouTube a week, and it’s certainly felt like the vibe has shifted. Reading between the lines with some of the talking heads, it sounds like they’d rather Trump lost and the GOP made gains in both the House and the Senate.
They can still run the party status quo ante that way for at least a little while. If Democrats get through voting rights legislation, the GOP will be forced to come up with an actual party platform beyond “loot the treasury.”
It’s also what the dems are playing into by chasing the center and the voters who are on the fence to swing the top of the ticket, but don’t support downticket candidates. If the dems want anything more than the white house, they need to excite their base. Trump is trying to scare her away from being a progressive by calling her “Comrade Kamala”.
Glass cannon build.
Everyone knows this, but most Republicans are still going to hold their noses and vote for the guy. It’s unreal.
They know how to vote.
The fascists can always wait, they only have to win once.
