Yet.
There’s also the fact that there isn’t an algorithm trying to keep you doomscrolling by promoting commercial content.
I think this is a huge part of it. Occasionally I’ll surf Facebook after checking out the marketplace. Last night I saw tons of posts about that “Try that in a small town” song with tons of people claiming to support it. Just post after post of people saying they don’t see anything racist about it at all, and not a single one pointing out how showing videos of the BLM protests while singing “we take care of our own, try that in a small town” miiiiiiiight just be a little bit racist. Fortunately I usually only click on cat videos and the rare left leaning recommended posts, so I got to see one post with a picture of John Cougar Mellencamp saying something like “I sang about my small town without mentioning violence.” The post had hundreds of comments…all deleted by admins.
Even when you try to avoid the controversy and hateful comments, the system is still designed to keep you doomscrolling. Positivity doesn’t help that…
I need eye bleach - I googled that song and wished I didn’t. You don’t even need to go to a small town - you go 5 feet outside of ANY city in US and everyone suddenly has a Southern accent and half of the people have Confederate flags. My 5 year old was with her mom in a peaceful protest and the fucking sheriff teargassed the group - she didn’t get hit by the teargas but she did almost get crushed by the panicking crowd. Fuck these people. Sorry about the “negativity.” But fuck.
This is underrated. I actually close Lemmy a lot easier and more quickly than I did reddit, it’s not hooking me with dopamine hits nearly as strongly.
As a result, since I know I’ll probably just scroll for a few minutes at a time, I’m more willing to check in more often and toss a few upvotes and maybe a comment or two around.
Yep this is huge. I still scroll on RiF sometimes without being logged in, and I had only ever looked at the subs I was subscribed to until now. I’m shocked by how much infuriating nonsense is being pushed by the site.
Lemmy is so far left leaning because a large part of its existence is due to people being mad at capitalism
And its so tiring to hear about all the time
Edit: and I don’t disagree
I agree with it, but I also agree with you
“I disagree with the bad thing, but I wish the people affected by the bad thing wouldn’t complain about it so much!”
I’m real tired of hearing about Lemmy and Reddit. I just want the other content that I used to consume here. I’m getting pretty tired of hearing how bad Reddit is doing.
It’s like someone coming out of an abusive relationship. Every other sentence is about the awful things they did, how good it is to be away, and did you hear about xyz thing they did.
It’s exhausting.
You can subscribe to subs that don’t talk about it and unsubscribe from the ones that do.
There will be a lot of growing pains as communities take time to migrate over, discuss the drama, have new communities created, seeing over time which ones are moderated in ways you enjoy.
Tldr: take it easy, you and the communities will sort themselves out in time.
Capitalism doesn’t tire!
Removed by mod
developed by socialists
I thought only capitalism drives innovation?
Strangely enough, many people do things for other reasons than money. :)
Then entire idea of open source wouldn’t exist if people were only motivated by money. As an example.
👀 eyeballs the Entire Free / Open source software culture
You’re telling me every technological innovation before 1750~ wasn’t done purely for the sake of profits and shareholders?!? HOW WAS THAT ALLOWED!?
Name 3.
Altruism, personal fulfillment, drugs
I read Altruism as Autism, and honestly I think it should be added to the list.
Name 845.
Well, let’s subdivide drugs then and start with the table of contents of PIHKAL and TIHKAL.
it does, in the fields of exploitation sciences, also known as orthodox micro economics
Capitalism drives dependance tho. Not a socialist but capitalism is terrible as well. Lemmy is created by free software and open source software enthusiasts. This means that code is public, its for everyone, and anyone can use it woth or without modification.
Some people think this is communism
Capitalism drives dependance tho.
So much this. Capitalism does not provide innovative solutions. Capitalism is the idea that there is only one, universal solution to any problem: throw money at it. The fundamental objective of capitalism is to invent new and innovative problems to fit that universal solution.
community property is a feature of socialism.
Community property is also a feature of capitalism (the form of it in the USA).
Police stations, public parks, classified documents, national/state parks and conservation areas are examples.
I think ‘community property’ is a byproduct of having a functional community.
Nah those are socialist features within capitalism and are all under assault from the neolib privateers.
more like a prerequisite
One of the devs has a guide on how to get into communism and which books to read on their GitHub. People think lemmy is communistic because the devs are.
One of the devs
People have very different opinions. The free software dev communities consist of many weird people as well. Many autistic ones, having other mental issues, and some sane people. But in the end all that matters is the software that they create. They are open and visible. Thoose people can’t be corrupt like the proprietary corporations(facebook, google, reddit) as the anyone can see what the software exactly does. If the software does the job without tracking or doing malicious attempts on you like facebook or google, then its really good
I mean the lead dev. Dessaline
A robust and non-ideological non-profit sector is key to any form of healthy capitalist system. That should be an agreeable statement to anyone regardless of if they like or hate capitalism.
There are two main reasons that evangelicals oppose government social services. One: Communism bad (well, “socialism bad” now because they have to poison the well against European democracies now that USSR is gone). Two: If the government helps people, people will be less likely to seek help from evangelical organizations, which eliminates a huge way to market Supply Side Jesus to people. Eating in to evangelicals’ ability to proselytize compellingly is therefore a non-starter.
Freedom and personal liberty drives innovation more than anything else.
more like we wanted out of the colonial capitalist echo chamber so we could hear ourselves think.
nice try though
It can be both. You cannot argue that Lemmy is devoid of echo chambers.
You know people can have strong ideals and still have the humanity to help people who may disagree with them? Not everything is run by political ideology.
That’s not how it started, Lemmy started way back from r/redditalternatives with Ellen Pao fiasco.
Not really. I mean that “because…” part.
Leftism is inherenty tied to technology, especially new. It’s part of its lifestyle. EVERY new, massive social “site” (or online service) is expected to be left-leaning by default. It may later change its political viewpoint, but in its relative infancy it’s left.
Rightism is more about actions taking place in real-world. As such, the technology isn’t perceived as more than a tool, used for specific purpose only, rather than part of, or the foundation of a lifestyle.
…and of course there’s a plethora of alternative political views, options and convictions that are a mix of either extremes of the spectrum - if you meet a person online, it shouldn’t be surprisied to learn about “pro-life”, but also “anti-Trump” and similarly puzzling approaches to various aspects of life.
tl;dr: it’s not about bots. It’s because Lemmy/Mastodon isn’t popular enough to serve as a tool for right-wing politics.
Leftism is inherenty tied to technology, especially new.
I don’t know, there has always been a huge libertarian contingent of the tech industry as well. I’m not sure which is bigger. I hope the leftism.
Yeah crypto bros aren’t exactly leftist, neither is the hypercapitalist Silicon Valley crowd, and I’ve encountered plenty of other tech enthusiasts with worrying opinions.
I feel that comment is on the vibe of “liberals are leftists”.
Edit: “that comment” as in the one above the one I’m replying to…
Libertarians are not leftists.
Ayn Rand style, “Don’t tread on me” objectivists, no. But they just co-opted the term. Libertarianism is pretty much anarchism, which is incomoatible with right wing beliefs, no matter what an-caps try and tell you. A right wing social order necessitates hierarchy, which anarchism is diametrically opposed to.
Libertarians promote “natural” hierarchy; the ones based on slavery, inheritance, and other mechanisms of white supremacy. And ultimately, the hierarchy of money which translates to power. To say they don’t believe in hierarchy when they’re the party of the robber baron who believe the bosses have the right to murder striking workers, even child workers, is frankly silly.
It’s not on anarchist ideology really because of this and only appeals to disinfranchised people if they haven’t bothered to do the math.
It’s like you only read two words of my comment. The dickhead rightoidswho call themselves libertarian are NOT libertarian. It is a left wing ideology. You cannot have a society that is both right wing and libertarian. It is impossible.
That is exactly why those fuckheads bring in bullshit like “natural hierarchy”, to jam their square beliefs into the round hole that is a classless ideology.
They took a word that already had a meaning, and tried to invert it.
Yes, it is beyond bonkers to suggest that crypto fascists want to flatten hierarchies. That is why it’s maddeningly stupid for them to call themselves libertarians. Agreeing with them and calling them libertarians is just feeding their lie.
My point was that anarchism is not compatible with capitalism because capital is a form of hierarchy.
And I read your post. Yes, tea party libertarians ultimately lean more big government authoritarian than strict libertarians should.
But libertarians, even ones that aren’t in bed with the GOP, aren’t anarchist because they ultimately use the power of money and privilege to create hierarchy and control others. They just don’t want democracy (i.e. governments) interfering in that power.
That’s not anarchy but feudalism.
While yes, libertarian is originally a leftist term, that’s not what I meant.
I meant the first comment saying most people on new tech are leftists is wrong. Most people who are technophilic are liberals. As in US style Democrat liberals. Which are NOT leftists. At all.
Why on earth would you say most tech heads are liberal?
Why would you say they aren’t ? They all buy in hard into capitalism.
Where are all these leftist techies?
Depends on which libertarian ideology is being expressed. Left libertarians - anarcho-syndicalists libertarian socialists, anarcho-communists are all libertarians. The right wing of anarchism aren’t leftists, the left wing are.
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Communism and libertarianism have nothing to do with each other. What are you even talking about?
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I’d say I’m generally conservative and have been dabbling in alternative social media for a number of years. Some of the biggest Mastodon instances are/were right leaning. Gab.ai started off as a proprietary site and then migrated to Mastodon. Truth.social was always based on Mastodon. I’ve never been active on them because I don’t like echo chambers though. I’ve never really had a desire to have my thoughts reaffirmed by strangers…
I would assume they’re presence isn’t felt in the fediverse because the concept of de-federating is working? Gab is likely cut off by others and truth social never federated with others to begin with. I don’t think Truth ever intended to though, and really just wanted something they didn’t have to build from scratch.
The only Mastodon instance I actually have an account with now is somewhat right leaning but it’s not their emphasis. Even then I’m not too active on it.
From what I gather, Mastodon attracts little attention in conservative circles.
One of main reasons I’ve heard is that “there’s hardly anyone to talk with”. Beats me if it’s default, general conservative opinion…
Thanks to Big tech censorship, there are lots of people who are more anti-establishment right on the fediverse. Lots of fairly large instances. Some of them are real nasty pieces of work filled with folks dropping n bombs and swastikas, some of them are filled with some of the sweetest religious right folks you ever met in your life.
I think one of the biggest differences is that you don’t have the Jerry Springer algorithm trying to match up a bunch of black people with a bunch of KKK members. Most far right instances don’t defederate anyone, but many of the far left instances defederate the moment anyone looks at them funny so despite sharing a platform, typically there just isn’t that much engagement between the two groups. In the middle of there are instances that are more than happy to federate with both as long as they aren’t too big of jerks.
Did you come up with “Jerry Springer algorithm” expression? Very apt way to express it.
After realizing that it would put a bunch of black guys and a bunch of KKK members in the same space intentionally because it drives overall engagement, it became clear that’s what it was. haha
Yet despite the clear creation of echo chambers, which I think is inevitable given how freedom of association works so smoothly and easily online, the Fediverse forces them all to “live next to each other”.
It’s not an entirely separate service I need to go on if I want to see what all the Nazi kids are up to these days.
This forced adjacency and inability to create any blocks stronger than defederation (which is pretty weak, really, compared to what other services can do) is going to have overall beneficial effects in the long-run, I think. Though it’ll certainly cause its fair share of headaches too.
I’m actually happy to see the reduction in echo chambers for myself because it does 2 things:
- It reminds me that the people I think I disagree with have good points I need to remember, and
- It reminds me that the people I think I agree with have terrible points I need to remember.
For someone who thinks for themselves, seeing extremism in some cases actually makes you less extreme because you see it and realize you don’t agree with it at all.
I mean, they’re there to talk to… If you like jacking each other off… I don’t.
Both of those sites have been ostracized (defederated) from the mastodon fediverse. The mastodon fediverse is in general quite left.
Yes, I said that. Well technically I said Gab was. Truth was so forked I don’t believe there was even an option to defederate them. They intended on a walled garden on their own.
Agree with this ,RW is having an elongasm on twitter while most of my lefties moved to mastodon
Thinking like this is why people get surprised when right leaning parties get voted for in elections
Lol right? “Right wing politics only seem popular because of bots”. No, left wing politics only seem popular on social media because old people dont use it, despite making up the majority of many populations, and often times are the only people who actually vote in elections.
Left wing politics are more popular in the real world than they are in real world governments. The thing is that extremely online youth have absolutely no idea of just how far left they are.
Grandpa also doesn’t understand federation
Grandpa actually votes tho
As a grandfather, boomer, white cis male, I suggest you might just be over-generalizing.
“as a black man”
I dont think that is the case. Left leaning people are just much less accepting of authority, so there are more likely to move of of reddit. right leaning people also tend to be more conservative, so they are more likely to stay on there old platforms.
Lemmy is a decentralized protocol not a centralized americanized political leaning social media.
For all we know the people that are on the right have gone to other platforms. That doesnt stop you jerks from saying im on the right even though im not. For some reason both sides have adopted a “with us or against us” mentality and everyone is a nazi.
That’s exactly what a Nazi would say!
/s
People throw around the word too much, there are actual Nazis around and we need to reserve the term just for their special brand of evil. Otherwise the phrase gets so watered down as to essentially become meaningless.
Otherwise they are just rightwing dipshits.
Watering down language is part of the right wing platform. I think they actually want to be seen as nazis so the term is less powerful. On the other side, they are calling everyone groomers to water down that language as well.
I’ve had people in this thread say that I advocate for genocide.
I don’t think the right are the ones watering down the language
Maybe you should do more research instead of advocating for then.
I know what the word ‘genocide’ means. The left just misuses words all the time.
I don’t need to ‘do more research’
You definitely could do more research since you disagree with scientific consensus on trans issues and think you know better how it aught to be.
I didn’t see anyone accuse you of genocide but from your other comments I wouldn’t be surprised if you did and just didn’t know it or tried to pretend you didn’t because of a technicality.
Sorry, this is the case on both sides. I’m a leftist, and I see it happen from my side all the time. Deflecting and claiming only Republicans do it is ignorant or blatant gaslighting.
I’m called a nazi sometimes from people in my own party. It 100% happens.
You know your political views are truly independent when both the left and right accuse you of siding with the enemy.
Independent… you mean a dirty centrist?!?
The hate for anyone who weighs ideas no matter which team they’re from is very transparent.
Hell, “gaslighting” itself is a good example of this phenomenon, and it’s mostly on the left.
I’m all for saying both sides are bad, because they are, but I’m guessing you either did something to warrant being called a nazi or found a cringey liberal to argue with.
The rightwing dipshits are now mostly nazis though, the moderate and neutral have been mostly boiled off.
I can only base this on my own government but I’d say about only a small fraction of the right wing party are full on Nazi’s, the rest are just awful people but they’re not evil. Although it is hard to tell because quite a lot in the greedy, which from a distance can’t look the same.
I want to upvote you for your rational take on nazis but downvote you for calling so many people awful.
You are absolutely correct. Not all fascist are Nazis.
Conservative =/= fascist
Change my mind
I like seeing things forbwhat they really are, so I consider myself a centrist. Both sides hate me they are so brainwashed.
Neither side has all the answers. Both sides have valid points, but these fools choosing a side stop using their brains to think for themselves, and just puppet whatever the rest of their cult is parroting.
Well you just got it all figured out!
I’m waiting for your centrist answers for everything! Please do tell.
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Centrism is just being able to acknowledge that both parties have flaws. If you can’t find any issues with the party you support, that means that you got your political views from someone else instead of developing them yourself.
People on a left-leaning site don’t wanna hear it, but US Democrats aren’t perfect. Their policy on immigration is not sustainable. A de facto open border policy for refugees and people who cross illegally while people with college degrees can’t even get a work visa is absurd. As a nation we are not obligated to help others when many of our own citizens are struggling. Biden’s student debt relief plan would have caused tuition prices to increase at an even faster rate than before and guaranteed further debt relief executive orders would be required in the future. Plus it set an insane precedent that the president could authorize billions in spending without any congressional oversight. Democrats were frightengly authoritarian during COVID with stuff like vaccine mandates and online censorship. Things were labelled as “misinformation” and later accepted to be the truth… repeatedly, and people simply didn’t care. One day you could get banned from every social media site for saying COVID may have come from a lab, and the next day it was perfectly plausible. That stuff would have been unthinkable prior to 2020 and it’s just apparently normal today.
And then there is the stuff where they’re just hypocritical or simply providing lip service. Biden could remove marijuana’s schedule 1 classification today with an executive order, but he won’t. Instead his administion argued in court that marijuana users cannot be trusted owning firearms and the ATF is right to prohibit them from buying guns. Speaking of guns, Biden also signed an executive order declaring pistol braces to be stocks after years of the ATF saying they weren’t stocks, making millions of gun owners into felons, many who didn’t even know about the reclassification. A piece of plastic that was legal one day is now 10 years in federal prison. Democrats are guilty of putting corporate interests before individual interests, much like republicans. Democrats love to talk about how much they care about the environment and climate change, but would sooner pass a law saying people can’t set their AC below 80 degrees than dare invest money into nuclear power or stop subsidizing fossil fuels.
You don’t have to agree with everything I said here. But if you can’t find anything to criticize about your preferred party, or at least acknowledge that these are valid criticisms even if you disagree with them, you are part of the problem.
“Centrists” gets tons of hate online that’s unwarranted IMO. “Centrism” is just a label people like to put on independent voters because mocking them by acting like their political position can be summed up as “Democrats have some good points, but the Nazis do too” is an easy way to dismiss them, when the reality is that most centrists are voters who get no representation since we have a broken-ass two-party system. Admitting that the two-party system is bad doesn’t benefit you if you support one of those two parties. So here we are.
Now do the Republicans.
Is there really anything to say there that everyone in this comment thread would be surprised by?
Republicans care too much about culture war BS
Republicans are blatantly wrong on the issue of abortion, and it’s actually baffling that they continue to oppose abortion even though it’s going to cost them elections
Environment. Need I say more?
Republicans are guilty of supporting giant corporations and serving corporate interests just as much as democrats. The only reason I don’t say they’re more guilty than Democrats is because companies that I consider to be some of the most monopolistic and controlling are tech and media companies that get much more support from democrats. I consider it a tie until one party either blocks a corporate merger or breaks up a monopoly.
I touched on Democrats being creepily authoritarian regarding speech, but of course Republicans are just as eager to censor when they have the opportunity as well.
I could go on, but these are the glaring issues I can think of that immediately come to mind.
What about Desantis being authoritarian and creating his own militia for Florida, Trump going after Muslims and other non-white people, trump encouraging his base (all republicans) to perform a failed coup? You seem to be watering down some very serious things on the republican side. I’m glad you’re sending your best efforts, but it’s not going to be enough here, at least right now.
He reactivated the Florida State Guard. The samekingd of State Guard utilized by like 22 other states including California and New York. The FSG was created way before DeSantis came to office.
To be honest, it looks like you are biased to the republican side.
You make good points though.
Based on two comments I made do you truly think I’m “biased toward the Republican side” or are you just assuming that because you automatically assume anyone who disagrees with Democrats on certain issues is a Republican sympathizer?
I dont think anyone on the left would say the democrats in the US are perfect, in the UK we hate labour since the leader is defiantly not left leaning and the party has fallen in the past few years
“I have no strong feelings one way or the other!”
Centrist doesnt always mean fence sitter… could just mean you agree with different points opposite of the eisle. Its almost like this whole political system wasnt intended to have a 2 party system or something…
It wasn’t intended, just a long term effect of First Past the Post voting systems.
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I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
It’s hard because everyone 100% has a different definition for every political party/leaning. I’m proud of you for sticking to being open to consider all points if view.
I’m a leftist, but I love having my views pushed against, and I am open to having my views changed on what I believe and think if I find the argument persuasive enough. It really is a sort of cancer that both sides tend to refuse to even consider they might be wrong on anything.
Keep on doing you, the downvotes don’t mean your outlook politically is wrong or bad.
Don’t forget the classic, “You sure with insert political extremist group on an issue. At least my side doesn’t team up with them.”
Most commonly seen when talking about Nazis obviously. I’ve been criticized for supporting free speech on social media sites because obviously only Nazis would benefit from being able to voice their opinions without worrying about being deplatformed.
Exactly. Blame/credit (blame in this case) doesn’t travel that way.
Take the following example: Alice and Bob both support view X. Bob also supports view Y. Y is evil. Then, Bob can be deemed responsible for supporting view Y. But X does not become evil because Bob is. And so Alice is completely fine.
There was already a right wing exodus from Reddit. /r/RedditAlternatives was created during that exodus, which is why their pinned list of alternatives includes things like gab(racists) and ovar.it(terfs).
For some reason both sides have adopted a “with us or against us”
I hate this. I hate that if you are not 100% aligned to a certain groups policies, you’re pretty much the devil in disguise. A leftist Democrat that supports the 2A? You’re a “hard core racist bigot conservative that needs to home someone you love die in a shooting to see how you like it!”. Those people are insane. It’s not how the majority thinks, but those that do are very outspoken and loud so they have way more visibility.
There are a lot of people (on both sides) that can see how extreme parts of their “side” are and are very self aware of those things. They’ll call out their own side for going too far, being too weird, and saying unfactual things. Those are the people that you can have real conversations with. You won’t agree, you won’t change opinions, but the conversation is generally very informative and you’re not getting pissed off at each other (or you do, but you still show each other a mutual respect).
I cannot stand those with the “with us or against us” mentality. They really need to GTFO. And they absolutely cannot say they are patriots and support America first and everything that goes along with that. Because our country was founded on different principals, people with different viewpoints, and we created ways to allow those various viewpoints to exist together. We WANT to have different viewpoints instead of just allowing one to flourish and grow to an extreme and heavy handed policy. If you support the “Us” part of that, we are ALL with us, even if our views are opposing and we refuse to even meet in the middle.
I cannot stand those with the “with us or against us” mentality. They really need to GTFO.
In other words, if they aren’t with you they are against you?
As someone with similar views, I recently realised that I have the exact same tribalism and aggression, it’s just targeted at people who have that mentality.
The right has moved onto other platforms.
A lot of people on the right who would post online have been banned from most of the left leaning platforms and have found their own places to talk.
And the end result is that every site is an echo chamber.
The state of the internet in 2023 is more or less, “Do you want the left-wing circlejerk or the right-wing circlejerk?” And if you want a place where people are allowed to express their views even if it disagrees with the majority opinion of the site, that no longer exists.
I’m sure it must be great if you identify as left or right, but it sure as hell sucks shit if you don’t align completely with either side.
I agree so much.
I love discussing things with people who think differently than I do, that’s how we learn. We should be able to disagree in a civil way and exchange ideas and understand each other and eventually agree to disagree.
But we can’t.
Online it’s either one extreme or the other.
When is someone going to have the balls to create a place where people can argue and talk shit out? Or is that just too mature for the kids online these days who cannot handle a disagreement?
Maybe there should be online discussions that are age restricted. No teenagers, 30+ adults only. I wonder if that would be better or worse
Aren’t you doing that right now?
I mean I always try, because I believe in it.
I think I’ve probably lost 40% of my total upvotes having this conversation though. On reddit when you go too deep into negative karma you need to make a new account because you can’t post in a lot of communities at that point
I think you’re speaking with people willing to engage and you’re not seeing it. Downvotes don’t mean people aren’t discussing, it means they don’t agree or they think you’re coming from a trolling place.
No no, I don’t mean anyone specifically in this conversation
I was more speaking in general.
The end result is that some sites have a lot of white nationalists and some sites have very little white nationalists.
Conservatives have nothing humane to bring to the table at this point, even if not proudly saddled with your average ethonostate enjoyers, the platform is nothing but a fight against progress during a time where crisis requires it.
I always find it funny (albeit in a depressing way) when people on the left act like anything short of totally open borders is white supremacy.
Wanna talk about ethnostates? Check out the demographics and immigration policies for countries like Finland, Sweden, the Netherlands, and Iceland. Wanna talk about racism? Ask the average naturalized immigrant how they feel about illegal immigration.
Supporting more secured borders isn’t racist. The reality is that the American government should prioritize the interests of its own citizens before prioritizing the interests of people from other countries. It drives me up the walls to see how much support our government provides to refugees when meanwhile our own cities are struggling, most often in predominately black areas. Yes it’s a slight false dichotomy to act like we can’t support refugees while also improving our inner cities, but the reality is that we usually fail to do both as they’re often competing interests.
Is it really “supporting a white ethnostate” to say I’d rather have our country let in more immigrants with college degrees or at least a willingness to work over a bunch of people who have zero desire to integrate or even work.
“Progress” doesn’t mean trying to increase the population of our cities and diversity as much as possible even if it means bringing in millions of people who will rely on the government to survive, refuse to integrate into American society, and are the literal opposite of progressive. “Progress” means working to improve the lives of the people we have already living here, regardless of their ethnic background. And currently our immigration policy isn’t accomplishing that.
How many democrats with meaningful power are actually proponents of an “open border”?
The main times I see the term “open borders” is a bunch of republican sites making strawman arguments. Fact is the border isn’t open and nobody serious really wants it open, but if it’s implied enough then people believe it. The #2 hit on google is an official republican senate website attacking this “open border” policy.
https://www.rpc.senate.gov/policy-papers/democrats-declare-mission-accomplished-on-the-open-border
Why this fixation on highlighting immigration in a facetious way to misrepresent the situation? Even the tone-deaf can hear that faint whistle.
Which site has the least strawmen?
I know I shouldn’t go into comment sections of these kind of posts, but man is this depressing.
I know I shouldn’t go into comment sections of these kind of posts, but man is this depressing.
It really is. So many vapid little monsters. You get to witness the ignorance and hatred spewed from people who think they’re moral beacons for the rest of us. It would be funny if it wasn’t so depressing, like you said.
There is also the fact that this isn’t a platform as much as it’s a framework that uses and open protocol. Right leaning people can setup Mastodon, Lemmy, Friendica, and so forth as easily as left wingers.
The biggest problem in general has been people treating Fediverse setups like traditional ones. Facebook, Twitter, Discord are all run by central companies.
Mastodon, Lemmy, Matrix, have the benifit of being usable as bases for people to setup individual communities for themselves and still have some networking.
The political discourse seems toned down here, I am already happy with that.
It’s more easily avoided.
But I am seeing 2010 style cringe new atheism though. It’s never a good sign when those people are around, they were the precursors to the cancer we see on the big platforms today.
Yes, I prefer my online culture to be entirely Christian, or failing that, trauma-free ex-Christians that have no desire to talk about how fucked the US is because of evangelicalism. High five, buddy.
There are countries other then the US.
Yup. There are. And if they have governments that are dominated by religious activists, the same message applies.
New atheism cringe is different to being pro abortion, women’s autonomy, and advancing marginalised people’s rights. Completely different.
If you specifically identify with new atheism and the thinking of Dawkins and his brigade, I’d seriously reconsider.
Here’s where I’m at - at the local level, the US is already a de facto theocracy in many places. If you have the privilege of being unexposed to this, great. The issue I have with Dawkins is that he’s an asshole that got called out for being an asshole by his own admirers and he doubled down on being an asshole to his own popular detriment. I have no issue with loud pissed-off atheists in a rabidly conservative USA. If the issue is that old school atheists kept their mouths shut, while new atheists are out and proud, you and I are not going to see eye to eye.
If the issue is that old school atheists kept their mouths shut, while new atheists are out and proud, you and I are not going to see eye to eye.
If you think ‘new’ means modern, as in present day, then you’ve been arguing with me for hours for no reason. Because ‘new atheism’ refers to a specific movement, around the 2010s. It’s not simply ‘atheism’ now.
I don’t care about shouty atheists or quiet atheists, it literally doesn’t matter to me. I am wary of people congregating around easy targets like broadly religious people, when religious people can mean anybody. It can be a white supremacist American, or it could be a Yemeni Muslim getting genocided by Saudis using American and UK bombs. And I don’t see that very important distinction made when those low iq anti-theist posts are spammed on c/all.
But that’s just as easily avoided too. I only know what you’re talking about because I saw like 4 cringe atheist memes while broswing All once. I don’t subscribe to any of those pages and so I rarely see it, just like how one could easily avoid political discussion.
When I say easily avoided I mean that I literally don’t see them very often. Whereas new atheism seems to be seeping into the feed wierdly often.
This reminds of when people go to toxic subs on the old place, to shit on fat people or something. The end result of these low iq hateful subs is that you grow a base of angry, preaching anti intellectuals who think they’re right and who are ripe for a right wıng bot army and bad actors to brainwash them, and ultimately afflict cancer on the space.
That said, I am on all too often.
It doesn’t to me. It’s just communists vs liberals rather than left vs right.
So real progress is being made then. ♥️
I would say less “left leaning” and more anti-capitalist / anti fascist. More socialism less Nazis.
At least it’s an ethos.
You’re not wrong, you’re just an asshole. /s
Shut the fuck up Donny!
I agree with the other commenters who say that the issue is primarily that the Lemmyverse is too small for the grifters to bother influencing, but I also think federation (and the non-profit nature) plays into this.
A site like Reddit generally does not ban members just for being Conservative and expressing relatively mainstream right-wing beliefs. They have to present at least a veneer of “free speech” except in the case of hate speech and violence. In addition, they don’t want to drive away Conservative users, because that’s where their money comes from.
To a small Lemmy instance, these motives don’t come into play. More users actually costs the admins more money. And while they generally don’t ban users willy-nilly, they feel they have a right to ban people just for being right-wing dicks.
Ultimately right-wing ideology cannot survive in a space like this except in explicitly right-leaning instances; which will be subject to the “Nazi Bar” effect until those instances are defederated from the rest of the Lemmyverse.
What’s “Nazi Bar” effect?
It’s a story with a good message
A guy was sitting at a bar one night. One of those dive bars where you make love to your booze and shut up. A guy in some punk clothes walks in and sits down, before he gets to say a word the bartender turns to him and says “No. Get out.” The punk argues that he isn’t doing anything, he’s a paying customer. Bartender reaches for something under the counter and repeats himself “Out, now” and the punk leaves.
First guy turns to the bartender and asks what that was about. Bartender explains that he had Nazi shit all over his vest, iron crosses and other shit. Says you start to recognize them. It starts out nice enough, one guy comes in, he’s polite and nice, so you serve him because you don’t want to cause a scene, then he comes back with a friend or two, and they’re fine, too. But then they bring their friends and it stops being cool all of a sudden and you realize “oh shit, this is a Nazi bar, now” when they take over. It’s too late to try and kick them out at that point because they will make it a problem if you try. So you have to nip it early with the first guy no matter how reasonable he seems because the end goal of that guy and his friends is to make it a Nazi bar for him and his cohort of Nazis.
Why are you getting downvoted for perfectly answering the question?
Fascists already invading
Yeah, there are some, but the really low tolerance for them here gives me hope they’ll get weeded out sooner than later.
Maybe. The upvotes outweighed them, though. There’s also a chance it comes from the punk community. And I’m betting they’re more likely to be here than Nazis at this point.
There’s a big thing right now that has that community on the defensive trying to erase the connotation between punks and Nazis. I’m sympathetic to the community, actually. You can’t control who tries to co-opt your aesthetic so there was a movement in the 80s and 90s aptly named “Nazi punks fuck off”. About a month ago, a few videos went viral calling out the fact that they still had swastika patches even if there was a cross over top of them. From my perspective it was a misinformed, but well meaning argument and it’s had much of the community on edge, since.
That’s a good point that I hadn’t considered.
I’d expect someone to raise it as a point, though, because I’ve seen the Nazi in a bar meme a million times but never has anyone pointed out the problematic linkage of punks and nazis.
I think it’s more likely that there are bad faith trolls here already that, rather than engage in a discussion, downvote to silence views they don’t like.
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yeah, the far left seems to be more of a problem here.
lemmygrad leaks regularly
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Except for the part where they support fascism by openly defending the CCP and Chinese propaganda
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You don’t think a country that actively censors the internet, monitors and jails people who post “wrong” memes or speech, and indefinitely jails minorities couldn’t be considered fascist?
People are labeled fascists here and on reddit for much much less.
Yea, but the founders are legit tankies who deny Chinese genocide…
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Not believing conspiracy theories about supposed Uyghur genocides doesn’t make you any kind of radical. Most governments worldwide (including every Muslim nations outside of Europe) do not recognize what’s happening in Xinjiang as a genocide.
Let me guess, dictator Chairman Xi Jinping personally developed Covid-19 in a Wuhan Lab to enact genocide against the white race too?
conspiracy theories about supposed Uyghur genocides doesn’t make you any kind of radical
Really? Your source is a Wikipedia article, that literally anyone can edit, and which has an official policy of not allowing pro-Chinese sources?
the truth is all evidence of a supposed “Uyghur Genocide” come from (1). Adrian Zenz, an anti-Communist Christian crusader with a proven record of falsifying data to serve his own interests, and (2). The U.S. government, directly or indirectly (such as the UN commission which was led by a U.S. ambassador). Neither are trustworthy sources when it comes to China.
Ultimately the question is “What constitutes a genocide?”. Because, sure - under the most liberal possible definition of a “Genocide” - there’s a genocide against the Ughyrs in Xinjiang. But only in the same way that Spain is committing a genocide against Catalonians; or that America committed a genocide against Italian-Americans. Teaching the national language, promoting Atheism, and spreading Communism does not constitute a genocide. Implying that it does is an insult to the victims of real genocides, like those against the Jews and Roma, Armenians, American Indians, and Palestinians.
There’s nothing left about lemmygrad. bunch of authoritarian fools who think ‘not being capitalist’ makes them leftists.
Check my handle lol
Far left is the current problem of the U.S.
you should seek help for your paranoid delusions
Your problem is thinking your country right wings beliefs concerns the rest of the world.
Yup, what the US believes has absolutely no impact on the rest of the world at all, and you are wise not to be concerned. Thank god we don’t have right-wingers that intentionally export their views to the rest of the world, or right-wingers that consult internationally with right-wing governments elsewhere in the world trying to reshape their political discourse to be even more right-wing than the USA. No worries at all. Sleep tight!
The Tories are practically just as bad as the Republicans these days
Most smart right wing people (not me obviously), long ago gave up trying to discuss anything important with the left.
It’s not productive, and everyone that I know has just gone to more private chats and channels and don’t even have social media accounts.
You get banned enough times for saying something reasonable, or constantly get called a nazi or something ridiculous and you just stop using those places to talk.
The separation and division has already happened. For anyone hoping to have a discussion with anyone who has different opinions than you do, that train has left the station.
There are bots, lots of them (I’m sure from the left and the right) and that’s it’s own problem. But I doubt we will ever see a place where people can just disagree anymore.
No one seems to have the balls to let these conversations happen on either side.
It’s just very hard to find a compromise or “agree to disagree” when the topic of debate is something like should LGBT people be allowed to exist. The days are long past where the right/left divide was all about economic policy – the divide lies along basic human values at this point. You’re going to be hard pressed to find people who can engage with you calmly when you’re defending a party whose primary concerns right now are stripping away civil rights from their least favorite human beings before all else.
This is something people on the right just find absolutely ridiculous. No one. NO ONE, think LGBT people shouldn’t be allowed to exist.
This is a big part of the problem, another response to my comment said people who think like I do support genocide.
Like this just sounds so hyperbolic and absolutely laughably ridiculous that no one has the patience to put up with it. It’s not a discussion.
You think I want an entire group of people to not exist. You have been taught this from somewhere and it’s not true. But you’ll never realize that.
So what’s the point?
Then explain to the class what you do believe in. Give us 3 bullet points you’d want a candidate to also support.
I’ll start as an example:
- I believe in complete and unequivocal abortion rights for women
- High speed rail should get more funding in the US, and car based transport (where rail could be a realistic replacement) should not be a cheap as it is
- Gerrymandering should be ended, and federal level elections should be taken over by a nonpartisan 50-50 committee to create new maps when local governments continue to submit unacceptable voting maps to intentionally stall so they can keep using the old gerrymandered map for the next elections
I’m not a politician, but I’m voting for the Conservative Party in Canada, I would suggest you look into their platform if you’re interested because I’m a supporter
But there are people recently that have said they should get stuck into asylums.
Does existing not include participating in society?
I don’t think gay or trans people shouldn’t participate in society. That doesn’t make any sense.
There are people that say a lot of crazy shit I don’t agree with, on the left as well.
Is there an argument that trans people need help? I think that’s pretty obvious. Is the help needed for the brain or the body? I think thats where a lot of disagreement comes from.
When I think about it, I can see why someone would think that surgery on a healthy body because the mind thinks it was born in the wrong body could be the wrong thing to do.
I don’t think that’s at all unreasonable. Most mental illnesses are treated by treating the mind.
And if your mind disagrees with the healthy body you were born in, I can see how the mind might be the place to start treatment, and not the body.
However, I also believe in adults being able to make their own decisions. Just as if someone wants to have cosmetic surgery to install horns in their head, or someone wants breast augmentation surgery, go fill your boots.
So if someone wants a surgeon to create a cosmetic neovagina forcthemselves and that would make them happy, go for it.
I also think adults should be able to hook themselves on heroin if they want. No one is there to hold your hand through life, most of all the government
If you’re an adult, make your own decisions and live with the consequences. I’m not here to babysit you.
Just wanted to add to this that the amount of downvotes I’m receiving just by speaking in this discussion just further proves my point.
I’m not welcome here, that’s clear, that’s why you don’t see more people like me online in places like this. But don’t let that fool you, we exist. Just not in the same places that you like to hang out.
And I think everyone likes that just fine
So there’s the rub. Are puberty blockers treatment for the mind or body? If it’s a “body” treatment and therefore the “wrong place to start” should children not have access to this treatment until they are 18? It does reduce morbidity of the condition.
You get shit on for your opinions because they are both uninformed and callous. You are also missing the point of the healthcare by focusing on elective cosmetic surgeries.
The way you talk about this subject is just awful.
I don’t consider cosmetic surgery ‘health care’. Gender reassignment surgery is cosmetic surgery. It’s not like a knee replacement or a quadruple bypass surgery.
Everything I’ve said has been to the adult population and that adults can make their own decisions.
Children cannot make those decisions for themselves. And in those cases, I think they need to be taken on a case by case basis and taken very seriously.
I don’t have much of an opinion on puberty blockers, other than to say that if the body is healthy and normal, I wouldn’t choose to medicate or mess with my child’s natural process of growing up into an adult.
Those are my personal beliefs and they apply to any ‘health care’ my kids would receive. If there is nothing wrong with the body’s process, I don’t see any reason to interfere.
Now if other parents don’t think that way, they can parent their kids however they see fit.
Being a parent is a difficult thing. All parents want what’s best for their kids, and no matter how hard we try to be the best parents we can be, I don’t think any child makes it out of childhood without some for of trauma, unfortunately.
I carry trauma from childhood, I’m sure my children will as well. I’m sure you do, as well as all of your friends.
You can assert that I’m ‘callous, uninformed and awful’ as much as you want, I’m used to much much worse. But I know myself (you don’t), and I know how empathetic I am to everyone’s unique situations.
My personal beliefs don’t really apply to anyone else. I just hope everyone ends up happier tomorrow than they were yesterday, and one size isn’t going to fit all.
That’s why I need to trust you to make the best life decisions for yourself. I’m not equipped to make those decisions for you.
I’m also not going to go out of my way to fix your mistakes though, either. Not because I’m callous, but because I think we are all on our own journey, and there is no safety net out there.
Life is very dangerous, you have the ability to really fuck it up. So take care of yourself, make good decisions, be strong, be independent, and have faith in yourself
The surgery is not only cosmetic, it has several health benefits.
It seems like you are selectively uninformed. You put breast argumentation in the same basket as extreme body mods.
Your choice to deprive your children of medication that would reduce their rate of suicidality is concerning. Would you let your son wear a dress?
No one. NO ONE, think LGBT people shouldn’t be allowed to exist.
What I’ve heard IRL and what I’ve read online in less moderated spaces speaks to the contrary.
Online isn’t a real place, you’ve got bots and trolls and people who just say things to get a reaction.
If you know people IRL that believe lgbt people shouldn’t exist, I guess I feel bad for you and who you associate with. I don’t know anyone at all like that, not even close to that.
Also, I don’t feel like I need to defend the ideas of the most crazy people/trolls you can find online. I’ll defend my own words and beliefs, but I don’t feel the need to defend the most extreme examples of dumb things you’ve read online that someone else posted.
You can relativise things all you want, it’s a fact that online insanity does leak back into the reality. For example see Qanon, or Brenton Tarrant, who used to frequent 4chan and 8chan. Not to mention the more trivial things such as people openly agreeing with Andrew Tate, or becoming fans and voters of Donald Trump due to his online presence, etc.
If you know people IRL that believe lgbt people shouldn’t exist, I guess I feel bad for you and who you associate with.
Did you just spin this into a covert ad hominem? Nice job, but I don’t “associate” with every person whose views I hear espoused IRL.
I don’t know anyone at all like that, not even close to that.
Ok? But why assume that every community and society is exactly like yours? From your other comments I notice you’re from Canada, I hope you’re aware your political culture isn’t typical for the rest of the world, not even for the entire “west”.
I don’t feel the need to defend the most extreme examples of dumb things you’ve read online that someone else posted.
Right, so you didn’t have to claim such people and such extreme positions literally don’t exist - with caps lock, no less. I probably wouldn’t think of replying to you if you didn’t formulate it so categorically.
Would you care to explain the policy changes right wing politicians are making then?
https://www.conservative.ca/pierre-poilievre/
This is who I’m voting for in the next Canadian election. I have a hard time disagreeing with anything Pierre Poilievre is campaigning on.
You can find a lot of him speaking in parliament on YouTube if you’re interested
Yup, pretty much. And most of the times I’ve seen right wing people just come comment the most batshit crazy thing imaginable. This doesn’t mean left wing lunatics don’t exist too.
for saying something reasonable
“Something reasonable” tends to be sexist, racist, bigoted, homophobic, transphobic, etc. in my observation.
Funny how they offered no examples of these “reasonable” arguments.
Tbf, they’re a self-acclaimed smart person who doesn’t want to get banned. At least they haven’t gotten themselves banned yet, so can’t find fault with that statement yet.
One of the last reddit posts I saw on unpopularopinion was someone self identified as being on the right, and how they were persecuted for their beliefs.
Literally her entire profile was them talking about the pros of meth, and saying some of the most bigoted shit I had heard in a bit, and attacking anyone slightly left of them in comments.
Ah yes, the right wings reasonable arguments. Things such as “kids don’t deserve food” “Trans people shouldn’t exist” “LGBT doesn’t deserve the same things” “Slavery was good for the slaves”
If only we had the balls to really discuss this stuff instead of just calling it evil.
Your user note is now ‘right wing shit head’
Except …. None of those things are true
But thanks for proving my point. This is why I (and no one else) should even bother with online public discussions
So when Michael Knowles said “Transgenderism must be eradicated” That was not “Trans people shouldn’t exist”? Or when Italy decided to remove lesbian mothers from birth certificates, that is in fact not “LGBT people don’t deserve the same things”?
Or Florida updating history books to illustrate how slaves benefited from their position because they now know the skill of blacksmithing?
dude, the latest batch straight up denies slaver was a thing
Don’t forget Florida changing the curriculum to show the “benefits of slavery”
The only point getting proven is you don’t even know the party you’re supporting. You said nothing I mentioned was the truth but that was just shit from the last few months. You’re wildly off the mark here and it showing big time.
All of those things happened quite recently, you should keep up with the news if you’re gonna comment about this stuff
I don’t think you understand. We’ve checked out.
You guys are kinda on your own. I think we all prefer it that way right now.
Also, not being American is another weird wrinkle in all of this. American politics is seeping into Canadian politics, but we don’t have as many of the same problems around race and inclusion as you do.
But there are still conservatives north of the border who aren’t really caught up in what’s happening in Florida or California.
There is a difference between conservative, or right wing and Republican. You seem to think they are the same thing. Well I’m not a Republican
You’re the one on your own buddy. You can plug your ears down to the third knuckle, doesn’t change your delusions. You cant defend your position beyond a simple “Nu uhhh!” and now you’re running with your tail between your legs, screaming “big meanies!”
They won’t even say what their positions are nevermind defend them
That’s fine
Dude there is plenty of racism in Canada.
Have you heard people talk about drunk homeless natives? Call your black coworker “intimidating”? Complain about drivers of any ethnicity? Talk about immigrants and refugees?
Do you interact with humans at all?
There is a lot of native racism, absolutely.
We don’t have the same history as the US does with racism though. If you think the US and Canada’s history of race relations is at all similar, you’re just ignorant about the subject.
Racism exists everywhere, yes. Not that it’s right, but it’s also not the same country to country.
Is japan racist? Yup, same with Sweden and Africa and the Caribbean and the UK and Egypt.
I’ve been to all of these places and interacted with the humans who live there.
But it’s not all the same.
As someone who skews quite far left ideologically but believes that people on both sides have been painted into polarised caricatures in each others’ minds by social media, I wholeheartedly agree.
Fuck your enlightened centrism
The concept of enlightened centrism is nothing but a tool to drive people into extremism. How can you not see that?
Are you sure you replied to the right person? I was condemning the “enlightened” centrism and the idiot I responded to. I think anyone who goes “but both sides” is almost always a blithering idiot.
Honestly, I have started to block political keywords on Mastodon (can’t do this on Lemmy unfortunately), because I am tired of the lack of nuance in online discussions and I am really not that interested in reading the same things over and over again.
People just group each other into two drawers marked “left-wing” and “right-wing” and that’s it. Some go even further and block instances with people they don’t completely agree with. In my opinion this stigmatisation just further and further divides people and will eventually result in less and less respect for each other (or should I say “hate towards each other”). If people would discuss more (without instantly putting words into the other side’s mouth), they might see that they share common ground on some topics, even though they disagree on others.
I am pretty confident that the political believes of most of the general public can’t be categorised into just two drawers. Most people probably have political views that are a mixture of different ideologies and they might not even know if those views are considered “left-wing” or “right-wing”.
Exactly, this is what all of my conservative friends think too.
They are just tired of it all.
I have some left wing view points on things, I voted for Trudeau the first time he ran (I consider this a mistake now), I also have right wing view points on some things.
I’m not at all an activist, but it feels like online everyone is expected to be.
I use common sense, that’s all. I don’t see any of these kind of conversations happening out in the real world, we don’t sit around and argue about this stuff face to face. It only really exists online.
Sorry, but I agree with Chapelle “Twitter is not a real place”
Given rw bots are given free-reign over many political topics on mainstream sites, seems like there no issue with having conversations as long as the conversation is pro-corporate talking points on topics like climate change and the bots are overwhelmingly on the rw side of the issue.
The only area where people are likely to get banned is things like being overtly pro-genocide against groups other than all humans.
Lemmy also isn’t profit driven, so you don’t get libertarian tech bros.
Not by bots but by rage farming algorithms. Rage farming the right is easy and profitable. Facebook has gotten that down to science. The fake absolutist free speech espoused by Twitter’s management as well as the apparent moderation inaction by Facebook are all about that. Letting right wing nuts rage freely generates engagement, generates ad revenue. The only thing the platforms actively manage is making sure that big name ads don’t show up on Nazi posts.
Among people in general who actually read comments, the left does have a distinct advantage.
If Republicans could read, they’d be real mad
