The first human recipient of a Neuralink brain implant has shared new details on his recovery and experience of living with the experimental assistive tech.
You can do this non-invasively though. Like, nothing I’ve heard about this so far justifies cracking someone’s skull open for it. I mean, someone came up with a way of controlling their avatar’s ears in VRChat using a Muse2 headset. While that’s not quite on the same level as being able to control a mouse pointer, I’ve seen articles on more advanced non-invasive BCIs being used to interface with PCs or even controlling robotic arms.
Edit: if this was giving him some kind of feedback, like making him feel things in response to on-screen information, I’d feel differently. However, as of right now, this seems like an overly invasive procedure for something that can be done without an implant.
The fidelity of information we can get outside of the brain is much less than the fidelity of what we can get inside the brain.
Neuralink has 1024 electrodes (and I’ve heard them talk about 4k if memory serves in the future)
They’re going to be able to do much more than point and click in the future, but as mentioned below they also broke the point and click record in the first 7 hours using it.
You gotta start somewhere though and point and click is a good space to start and can be meaningful.
With 2 or more implants one in the motor cortex and one connected below the break in his spine, he might even be able to walk one day. But you don’t start with that. You build up to it.
Also being the first human patient in a trial may delay his personal ability to enter a future trial like a walking one with the same patient. So he’s taking on various future risks to his future potential lifestyle being the first human trial.
Imagine being a quadriplegic and having someone invent a method by which you can better interact with the outside world again, but refusing it because “Twitter man bad!”
You realize Elon Musk doesn’t actually do the surgery himself, right?
Imagine being a quadriplegic and having someone invent a method by which you can better interact with the outside world again, but refusing it because “Twitter man bad!”
I would have a different opinion if it had been Civ5.
Check out my reply to PugJesus. The gist of it is that, so far, I haven’t heard about neuralink doing anything that a non-invasive BCI can’t do. I’d feel differently if the implant was giving him feedback on the things he was doing, but right now it seems like an overly complicated and invasive way of doing something that can already be accomplished without surgery.
The goal of Neuralink is to accomplish far more than what non-invasive BCI can, but you can’t leap straight to a finished product on your very first test. That’s part of what testing means, it’s research.
I have a number of concerns about Neuralink specifically. Mainly:
The scientists I’ve seen saying stuff like, “I work in a lab with Nematoads (flatworms), and if we had casualty rates like they’ve had with monkeys, we’d have our license revoked and a full investigation of the lab.”
What’s the long-term look like for these? How often will they need to be replaced? What’s the End of Service going to look like? Will they be like that recent issue with those bionic eyes that the company just stopped supporting and the patients who had them implanted had no other choice but to go back under and get them surgically removed because they were going to just stop working.
The idea of the tech is great, but I don’t trust a for-profit company to care about the people that it’s going into, and a company under Musk especially. Look at all the issues with Teslas that make it seem like there’s no regulatory oversight on those cars. From that billionaire woman who just drowned because the glass Tesla uses is shatterproof when submerged and the doors are electronic (so don’t work without power - like when the car touches water) and the only way to manually open them is to disassemble the door panel and pull an unmarked wire, to how they have the highest accident rates of any car brand. And supposedly, their newer models (since 2021 or so) don’t even have a manual shifter. The car guesses whether you want the car in drive or reverse, and if it guesses wrong, you have to change it in the touchscreen menu.
Musk’s name being attached is reason enough to worry simply because of how often it seems that safety regulations just seem to disappear when he’s involved.
Everything you mentioned about the Tesla vehicle issues is largely inaccurate. It’s not your fault, because there’s been a ton of sensationalized stories and misinformation thrown out there about them. Full disclaimer: I do own a 2020 Tesla Model 3 and love it. It’s not a perfect vehicle by any means, but it’s a whole lot of car for what I paid, and it’s required almost no maintenance or attention from me over the past 4yrs beyond rotating and changing tires. I don’t like Elon Musk and think he’s a giant tool/lunatic in so many ways, but Tesla makes pretty damn solid cars despite him. I wish they’d get rid of him, though I bet he has a controlling/majority share unfortunately. I bought my Tesla before he became a huge raging asshole on public platforms, and that definitely contributes to hesitation at buying another in the future (though that’s several years out anyway).
The emergency door release in the front doors on a Tesla is a simple latch mechanism easily accessible right underneath the digital button door handle. It’s actually so easy to access that it’s extremely common for people new to the vehicles to pull that manual release instead of using the button to open the door. This is true for all Model 3 and Model Y vehicles, and newer Model X and Model S vehicles. On older Model S and X vehicles that have the pull handles, the manual release is the same as the digital release. It’s only the rear passenger doors that have more obscure manual releases, presumably so children can’t bypass the child lock easily. That process varies by model, but none of them require any door panel disassembly. You can see most of the methods in this video. It’d be nice if this process were more standardized across models, though, and it could be made more clear for any passengers not familiar with the car they’re in for sure.
The glass isn’t anything different from what every other auto manufacturer is using on vehicles. Glass used in car doors is tempered and will completely shatter into thousands of tiny, mostly harmless pieces upon precise impact on a point, but will resist shattering from blunt hits. More “luxury” vehicles use laminated glass on the doors that does not immediately fully shatter even from precise pointed hits, but once a small shatter has been created, the glass can then be pushed out/in relatively easily. See the link above again, as they also go over this.
All of the newer models do still have a manual shifter, but it’s definitely not traditional (none of their shifters have been fully traditional in the first place, though). They’re now all P/N/D/R buttons, either up near the rear view mirror or down on the center console. The preferred method of shifting on these newer models, however, is using the touch screen - but it’s probably not how you’re thinking. The side of the touch screen closest to the driver has a dedicated area when pressing the brake pedal while in park and always active when driving that you just swipe up or down on to switch between drive and reverse manually. I’ve never experienced this personally, as my Model 3 is an older one with a steering wheel stalk to shift. Owners of these do generally say they very quickly get used to it, the gesture rapidly becoming natural to them. I can definitely understand hesitation about it though, which is why there are still the physical controls in addition to this. The predictive shifting is a setting that can be disabled, and any user input always takes priority even when it is enabled. I’ve heard it also works rather well from other owners, but again, I have no personal experience.
In terms of general overall safety, Tesla’s vehicles have consistently been scored as some of the safest vehicles to drive in the world by the NHTSA and other safety organizations. See their latest NHTSA-rated model for an example. You are more likely to survive a collision and other incidents (and more likely to remain unharmed) in any of the Teslas than most other vehicles on the road. They’ve been highly rated for pedestrian safety as well. (Note: dunno where the Cybertruck sits in all this, as it’s brand new and is an entirely different class of vehicle from their previous, being a full-size pickup truck. I don’t think they’ve been fully rated by any organization yet.) Tesla actually publishes their incident rates quarterly, and they can be seen here.
Baby Elon is terrified of dying and thinks brain implant tech research is the first step towards his immortality. Also an ego move because sh*tstain mcgee (Elon) is a dumb narcissist.
Imagine spending your time, money, and resource on fancy thought chips instead of actually working to cure the disease bcz you think a brain chip is worth more money.
So you would be fine with them “spending the money on developing fancy thought chips instead of a cure” if the implant had similar complications/survivability rates as cochlear implants?
And cochlear surgery, while quite safe, isn’t exactly the most minor surgery. They’re going pretty deep into your head to put that stimulator gizmo on your auditory nerve behind your inner ear.
No, this technology is bad news. Have billionaires and governments ever shown themselves to behave ethically and in the best interest of anybody but themselves ever?
This is basically the internet of things, except inside your head. The security implications alone should be enough to not want this.
But, that’s my bad, it’s on me for thinking people are on average smart enough to see a problem before it becomes one. It’s been too long since the pandemic, I’m starting to forget how stupid the population actually is.
Look man, you seem to be buying into the boogy-man of people just getting these implanted on a whim. That’s not the use case, and probably won’t be in the next 50-100yrs.
This is a technology specifically for people with hugely debilitating conditions. People who can’t move or talk, and have to communicate with eye movements.
You can talk all you want about how dangerous this technology is, and you’re right. It potentially could be. You know what else that’s true for? Pacemakers. Pacemakers are hugely invasive to put in, and have proven vulnerable to Bluetooth attacks over and over and over again. It’s trivially easy to hack someones pacemaker and potentially kill them. It’s an IoT device implant through and through. And you know what no one is advocating against having? Pacemakers. Because without them people would just die instead.
This is the same thing. Are there dangers? Absolutely. You know who doesn’t care? The person who literally takes 20min to type out “Hello” on an eye tracker keyboard. This tech is game changing for them. It gives them the ability to interact with the world far beyond any other measure we have today. And I don’t think it takes much empathy to realize that maybe that makes it worth investing in.
No, I just know how people like Elon Musk think. He thought this was a better investment than research to cure this. I mean, if you haven’t figured it out yet, which it seems like you haven’t, they are using this guy as a PR stunt for the product.
There was no intention or aim of improving the life of quadriplegic people with this.
It’s purely a means to an end for Elon Musk. And quiet frankly, people should be scared shitless of having these things inside their head.
But, it’s a feel good story, so people don’t see the wider implications of the device.
Let’s separate the asshole from the accomplishments please, I don’t think we should deny people potentially life changing technology because it’s associated with some rich dickhead.
Did any of those go anywhere? People love just throwing shit and seeing what sticks. Nothing I’ve seen have shown any actual evidence, nor these investigations leading to anything…
But sure perpetuate misinformation, you do you mate.
Imagine letting Elon Musk drill a hole in your head just so you can make the mouse move with your mind
He’s a quadriplegic. It’s not like it was done because he was a Musk fanboy.
On one hand, I get it, on the other, I’d trust just about any other tech company above anything Musk does
Which other tech companies are doing this?
BlackRock, for one, which shouldn’t make you feel any better.
A few actually:
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/18/synchron-backed-by-bezos-and-gates-tests-brain-computer-interface.html
You can do this non-invasively though. Like, nothing I’ve heard about this so far justifies cracking someone’s skull open for it. I mean, someone came up with a way of controlling their avatar’s ears in VRChat using a Muse2 headset. While that’s not quite on the same level as being able to control a mouse pointer, I’ve seen articles on more advanced non-invasive BCIs being used to interface with PCs or even controlling robotic arms.
Edit: if this was giving him some kind of feedback, like making him feel things in response to on-screen information, I’d feel differently. However, as of right now, this seems like an overly invasive procedure for something that can be done without an implant.
Noland set the BCI point and click world record in the first 7 hours of using it. They’re clearly doing something right.
Alright, that’s kinda cool.
You got a source for that? I couldn’t find it on Google.
There’s a clip of it happening in the Neuralink All Hands video he posted.
Thank you. I found it just after I made that comment.
The fidelity of information we can get outside of the brain is much less than the fidelity of what we can get inside the brain.
Neuralink has 1024 electrodes (and I’ve heard them talk about 4k if memory serves in the future)
They’re going to be able to do much more than point and click in the future, but as mentioned below they also broke the point and click record in the first 7 hours using it.
You gotta start somewhere though and point and click is a good space to start and can be meaningful.
With 2 or more implants one in the motor cortex and one connected below the break in his spine, he might even be able to walk one day. But you don’t start with that. You build up to it.
Also being the first human patient in a trial may delay his personal ability to enter a future trial like a walking one with the same patient. So he’s taking on various future risks to his future potential lifestyle being the first human trial.
More likely he’s both a quadriplegic and a Musk fan.
Imagine being a quadriplegic and having someone invent a method by which you can better interact with the outside world again, but refusing it because “Twitter man bad!”
You realize Elon Musk doesn’t actually do the surgery himself, right?
I would have a different opinion if it had been Civ5.
I quit playing after Civ IV, there’s just nothing better than Leonard Nimoy’s voice narrating it.
Heh. Yeah, the older they get the more I actually enjoy them. In fact, I actually picked up Unciv, https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/unciv-is-a-free-open-source-take-on-civilization-5-thats-coming-to-steam, since its FOSS and I can play it for hours on flights.
Hath not the potter power over the clay, to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=121611292
I’ve never played Civ 4, but even though I keep the voice volume nearly inaudible, I still always play with this mod.
Boo! Civ 6 is better. 4 was pinnacle, but I got tired of it after 1000 years.
Check out my reply to PugJesus. The gist of it is that, so far, I haven’t heard about neuralink doing anything that a non-invasive BCI can’t do. I’d feel differently if the implant was giving him feedback on the things he was doing, but right now it seems like an overly complicated and invasive way of doing something that can already be accomplished without surgery.
The goal of Neuralink is to accomplish far more than what non-invasive BCI can, but you can’t leap straight to a finished product on your very first test. That’s part of what testing means, it’s research.
I have a number of concerns about Neuralink specifically. Mainly:
The scientists I’ve seen saying stuff like, “I work in a lab with Nematoads (flatworms), and if we had casualty rates like they’ve had with monkeys, we’d have our license revoked and a full investigation of the lab.”
What’s the long-term look like for these? How often will they need to be replaced? What’s the End of Service going to look like? Will they be like that recent issue with those bionic eyes that the company just stopped supporting and the patients who had them implanted had no other choice but to go back under and get them surgically removed because they were going to just stop working.
The idea of the tech is great, but I don’t trust a for-profit company to care about the people that it’s going into, and a company under Musk especially. Look at all the issues with Teslas that make it seem like there’s no regulatory oversight on those cars. From that billionaire woman who just drowned because the glass Tesla uses is shatterproof when submerged and the doors are electronic (so don’t work without power - like when the car touches water) and the only way to manually open them is to disassemble the door panel and pull an unmarked wire, to how they have the highest accident rates of any car brand. And supposedly, their newer models (since 2021 or so) don’t even have a manual shifter. The car guesses whether you want the car in drive or reverse, and if it guesses wrong, you have to change it in the touchscreen menu.
Musk’s name being attached is reason enough to worry simply because of how often it seems that safety regulations just seem to disappear when he’s involved.
Everything you mentioned about the Tesla vehicle issues is largely inaccurate. It’s not your fault, because there’s been a ton of sensationalized stories and misinformation thrown out there about them. Full disclaimer: I do own a 2020 Tesla Model 3 and love it. It’s not a perfect vehicle by any means, but it’s a whole lot of car for what I paid, and it’s required almost no maintenance or attention from me over the past 4yrs beyond rotating and changing tires. I don’t like Elon Musk and think he’s a giant tool/lunatic in so many ways, but Tesla makes pretty damn solid cars despite him. I wish they’d get rid of him, though I bet he has a controlling/majority share unfortunately. I bought my Tesla before he became a huge raging asshole on public platforms, and that definitely contributes to hesitation at buying another in the future (though that’s several years out anyway).
You realize this tech has existed for like a decade, right?
Shit, I remember research from 20 years ago.
So why is Neuralink a thing, then?
Because a quadriplegic can play a pc civilization video game on it. I don’t even like Elon Musk anymore but this is badazz.
Imagine being able to control something and staying up so excited as a quadriplegic person and then passing out and still dreaming about the game.
But yes,let’s be hesitant no? I assume they are following the regulations and what not
Marketing.
https://roboticsbiz.com/the-history-of-brain-computer-interfaces-bcis-timeline/
If that’s what it takes to get the tech into the heads of people who need it, yay marketing.
Baby Elon is terrified of dying and thinks brain implant tech research is the first step towards his immortality. Also an ego move because sh*tstain mcgee (Elon) is a dumb narcissist.
Ah, back to “we don’t want advances that could help quadriplegics because Twitter man bad!” Again.
He said something nice about Trump so he must be cursed for 7 generations
Imagine spending your time, money, and resource on fancy thought chips instead of actually working to cure the disease bcz you think a brain chip is worth more money.
What are your opinions on cochlear implants?
Irrelevant, cochlear implants don’t require them to crack open your skull in a major surgery that can kill you.
So you would be fine with them “spending the money on developing fancy thought chips instead of a cure” if the implant had similar complications/survivability rates as cochlear implants?
And cochlear surgery, while quite safe, isn’t exactly the most minor surgery. They’re going pretty deep into your head to put that stimulator gizmo on your auditory nerve behind your inner ear.
No, this technology is bad news. Have billionaires and governments ever shown themselves to behave ethically and in the best interest of anybody but themselves ever?
This is basically the internet of things, except inside your head. The security implications alone should be enough to not want this.
But, that’s my bad, it’s on me for thinking people are on average smart enough to see a problem before it becomes one. It’s been too long since the pandemic, I’m starting to forget how stupid the population actually is.
Look man, you seem to be buying into the boogy-man of people just getting these implanted on a whim. That’s not the use case, and probably won’t be in the next 50-100yrs.
This is a technology specifically for people with hugely debilitating conditions. People who can’t move or talk, and have to communicate with eye movements.
You can talk all you want about how dangerous this technology is, and you’re right. It potentially could be. You know what else that’s true for? Pacemakers. Pacemakers are hugely invasive to put in, and have proven vulnerable to Bluetooth attacks over and over and over again. It’s trivially easy to hack someones pacemaker and potentially kill them. It’s an IoT device implant through and through. And you know what no one is advocating against having? Pacemakers. Because without them people would just die instead.
This is the same thing. Are there dangers? Absolutely. You know who doesn’t care? The person who literally takes 20min to type out “Hello” on an eye tracker keyboard. This tech is game changing for them. It gives them the ability to interact with the world far beyond any other measure we have today. And I don’t think it takes much empathy to realize that maybe that makes it worth investing in.
…working on the “thought chips” are working on a cure. Or a workaround for the handicap, at least.
Would you accuse the guy who invented the wheelchair of wasting their time on a fancy mobile lay-z-boy instead of “working on a cure”?
No, I just know how people like Elon Musk think. He thought this was a better investment than research to cure this. I mean, if you haven’t figured it out yet, which it seems like you haven’t, they are using this guy as a PR stunt for the product.
There was no intention or aim of improving the life of quadriplegic people with this.
It’s purely a means to an end for Elon Musk. And quiet frankly, people should be scared shitless of having these things inside their head.
But, it’s a feel good story, so people don’t see the wider implications of the device.
Let’s separate the asshole from the accomplishments please, I don’t think we should deny people potentially life changing technology because it’s associated with some rich dickhead.
The company and its accomplishments are pretty sketchy though
Their accomplishment seems pretty good in this case.
It was an incredibly reckless process of development that involved abusing monkeys and skirting regulations
I see this repeated, but no sources provided.
I can google it for you if you’d like…
https://www.reuters.com/technology/elon-musks-neuralink-may-have-illegally-transported-pathogens-animal-advocates-2023-02-09/ (or https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/9/23593011/elon-musk-neuralink-brain-implant-transportation-department-investigation-contaminated)
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/neuralink-musk-fda/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2024/02/26/experts-criticize-elon-musks-neuralink-over-transparency-after-billionaire-says-first-brain-implant-works/?sh=2ae1547e4915
https://www.pcrm.org/news/news-releases/statement-physicians-committee-neuralinks-purported-patient-implant
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/technology/us-lawmaker-seeks-answers-on-fda-inspection-of-musks-neuralink/articleshow/108797584.cms?from=mdr
Did any of those go anywhere? People love just throwing shit and seeing what sticks. Nothing I’ve seen have shown any actual evidence, nor these investigations leading to anything…
But sure perpetuate misinformation, you do you mate.
I hate Elon Musk, but come on, man. Use a bit of that critical thinking I am sure you have in the back of your brain.