Dirt_Possum [any, undecided]

Oh there’s plenty of room for someone who is informed to get angry and rightly ridicule people who deserve it.

the opinion on the topic you are not informed about displays your values and having it might be beneficial to you.

And it might be detrimental to you just as easily. There’s no way to know which without being informed, but an ignorant opinion based on “values” (aka vibes and what you want to be true rather than what is true) is more likely to hurt you or others in the long run. Just as being a racist bigot who has a wrong opinion about people of color might find that holding their racist opinion is immediately beneficial to themselves if they’re in a similarly bigoted community, being a bigot is ultimately harmful for reasons I would hope wouldn’t need to be explained.

An example would be a parent who doesn’t want any gender-related issue to be discussed in the school.

Yet their uninformed opinion is harmful. Gender issues are inevitably part of our world and learning about them will not only prepare children to have an understanding of them that their ignorant parent lacks and help make the world safer and more livable for everyone as a result, but if that child themselves turns out to be gender stereotype non-conforming, then learning about those issues will help them better understand themselves and potentially save them from much of the misery inflicted on them by an ignorant populous.

Most of the people I’ve known who were into anime were women, some of them are even anime artists. In the 00s, I only knew about anime because a girlfriend of mine (platonic) was into it and tried to get me into it and I thought it was mostly something that only interested other girls. I was aware of Sailor Moon and knew girls who had posters of it in their rooms, but never knew any males who admitted to liking it so hearing that anime is thought of as a guy thing is still strange to me.

Hexbear is mostly white. So maybe don’t use it.

I’m shocked that drug dealing is coming up here as an example of criminality in so many comments. It’s very literally only criminal behavior because the us made it criminal behavior to crush poor people, radicals, and minorities, and most people know that

I’m hoping that most people here understand that and are using it as an example of criminality only as a way to talk about lumpen as a class that relates to the means of production differently than most of the rest of the proletariat (but I don’t know, I also wouldn’t have thought there would be so many leftists who seem to think that sex work isn’t work or that no forms of it could possibly exist under communism). But either way, what I do find shocking about it is how many people here think that they have less revolutionary potential than the rest of the US proletariat which is extremely right wing. Like the comment “drug runners aren’t gonna help us do communism dude.” Well, they’re hell of a lot more likely to than all the reactionary regular proletarians who are Trump and Biden law and order supporters.

You highlight the work aspect of sex work as if I’m saying it’s not work, or to say that it‘s work only quantitatively different from manufacturing goods, delivering goods, etc. I’m not saying sex work is immoral or impure or condemning it based on moral judgement.

Ok, maybe I was wrong about what you were saying. Do you think sex work is work, then?

Someone may sleep with many members of society and be supported in their needs by the community through the immense wealth of the people under communism, but the support of their needs would not be predicated on their sleeping with members of the community.

Would the needs of any other members of that society be predicated on the work they do?

And their activity would necessarily not contribute to the welfare of the whole community but only persons selected.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. Surely making sure the members of a community are able to lead happy and fulfilling lives is contributing to the welfare of the whole community. Human sexuality is undeniably an important aspect (for the majority of people) of a person’s over all sense of happiness and fulfillment. There being members of the community that help ensure everyone else in the community has that sense of fulfillment, members of the community who are explicitly willing and happy to provide it as a service (labor), is a positive, even necessary contribution to community wellbeing.

Replacing cash with goods doesn’t make prostitution not sex work or change the relations at play.

I never implied otherwise. I wasn’t the person who said “some people will always be willing to exchange goods or labour for sex regardless of economic or political system.” But they are correct, and you are not when you call that “bourgeois philosophy” and “utter nonsense.” Even in a system where that kind of tit-for-tat exchange is unnecessary, it is absurd to say that it will never happen.

People misunderstand communism, due to a misunderstanding of its relation to early communal society, as some sort of return to the end stage of historical communities where everyone lives in common low development and individual exchange happens under the table.

That may be, but that is not an error I’m making. As I briefly mentioned in a response to another comment, there will always be people who are unable or unwilling to form the kind of relationships usually required for sexual activity and thus sexual fulfillment. There will also always be people who choose to develop skills that help provide people with that kind of fulfillment sans any other form of relationship. You may say that such a thing is so different from the kind of purely transactional relationship we traditionally characterize as prostitution that it may as well not be called prostitution. Fine. But the same thing can be said for countless other forms of labor that people do under capitalism to survive, but that under communism would just be “something I enjoy doing,” that is still labor and provides a service to society. Like an actor who enjoys giving performances that provide other people with entertainment (as one of countless other possible examples).

What percentage of prostitutes across history do you believe fit into a definition that isn’t characterized by exploitation?

What percentage of plumbers across history do you believe fit into a definition that isn’t characterized by exploitation? Sex work is work. Period. Just like other work, it can be done because a person enjoys it, but under capitalism (or other modes of production that exploit workers) it will always involve exploitation. If you want to define prostitution as something that always involves exploitation, ok fine, but then you also have to separate that out from sex work, which absolutely does not inherently require exploitation and most certainly would still exist even if all economic coercion were eradicated (that is, under communism rather than capitalism).

Under communism (a classless, stateless, moneyless society), the economic and class relations that force people to perform sexual labor as a means of subsistence won’t be present.

(Emphasis above is mine). Under communism, the economic and class relations that force people to perform any labor as a means of subsistence won’t be present.

People will still have sex, but nobody will be coerced into having sex in exchange for food, shelter, or medical care.

No shit. There will still be plumbers too, but they won’t be coerced into it in exchange for food, shelter, or medical care. Almost all of your arguments so far can be applied exactly the same to any number of other forms of labor.

Prostitution won’t be an occupational category under communism because the purpose of labor under communism is about fulfilling social need.

So finally we get to some reasoning (flawed though it is) for why sex work would be different than any other work. You think that sex work doesn’t fulfill a social need. Sexual fulfillment is a social need. There will always be people who find it difficult to find partners due to all kinds of possible scenarios (including having no time to build a relationship due to dedicating all of it to other interests or necessary labor). And there will similarly always be people willing to provide that, people who have dedicated their time to become skilled at providing that. Refusing to recognize them as fulfilling a social need is simply being sex-negative and it’s always shocking to me that there are still leftists who don’t understand this.

Even the so called criminal element isn’t properly considered in the traditional view of lumpen. At least from what I’ve seen, there is almost always a failure to understand that large swathes of the lumpenproletariat are simply parts of the proletariat that had no economic recourse, lacking even the ability to survive by legally selling their labor, and became lumpen by necessity. Consider redlined ethnic minorities who are denied even bare minimum legal employment and resort to drug dealing as the only means of survival. Many of them put the money they make directly back into their destitute communities. They absolutely have revolutionary potential and some of them have class consciousness on a level far beyond that of the vast majority of legal working proletariat.

You act like it’s blatantly obvious that commodities would exist under communism and mock the person who pointed it out to you, yet you vehemently deny that something else just as obvious as the existence of commodities will also still very much exist and have a place under communism, calling it utter nonsense and requiring “bourgeois philosophy” without any explanation. That something else involves sex, though. Hmm. Funny how work that involves sex always brings out a specific type with an angry and reactionary axe to grind.

At least u/porcupine can make a reasonable case by redefining prostitution as something other than and separate from sex work rather than denying the legitimacy and validity of sex work.

Cool story

I love when hexbear users just make shit up about what I say.

I love when hexbear users demonstrate not only a complete unwillingness to do bare minimum self crit, but deflect around the reason they’re being criticized and then pretend the people criticizing them are “making shit up.” “I’m getting ratioed because hexbears are making shit up about what I say!” is the kind of comment I expect to read from .world lemmitors, but its especially disappointing to read it from a leftist I would have thought should know better.

I said “you should just block me if you don’t want to see it”

Do you think blocking a user lets people unsee something they already saw? Does blocking on hexbear allow for time travel now?

Intentional bad faith misreading of what I said as well as an unwillingness to even try to comprehend what I did say. Also, you don’t get to decide for other people what is traumatic for them. The self centered lib-brained gall of some people to think they’re the arbiters of other people’s trauma… Just wild.

Because they’re literally given the power to not see it if they don’t want to

Can you really not see why this is just a bad argument? Not to mention selfish? The exact same thing could be said about literally anything that we require content warnings for. Talking about SA? “Bro, just block me if you don’t wanna see detailed depictions of assault!” Traumatic gore (which is actually what “meat” really is)? “Come on bro, it takes no effort just to block me when I post gore images, so I shouldn’t have to figure out how to use spoiler tags late at night for your delicate snowflake sensibilities.” Even then it’s retroactive, people are not given the power to not see it if we don’t want to the first time around. Blocking you comes after we’ve already been forced to see something we didn’t want to see and only works in hypothetical future occurrences.

I’m not saying it was massive. If that was what it read I was implying, maybe my language was a little hyperbolic. But I actually am aware of the downvotes and am including that information in talking about this.

17 up and 10 down on my first and very mild comment. 22 up and 11 down for his long, swerfy response. The support is in his favor. This is really splitting hairs though, and the exact numbers don’t really matter. Just that there are quite a lot, even a slight majority of people supporting SWERF garbage. I also think that moderation says a lot about a community, what it really stands for. To me, it’s telling that I got banned for rule 2 (bigotry, sexism, etc.), which is what I was calling out, while the actual bigotry and sexism still stands with a bunch of upvotes, does speak to the general vibe of what is ok and what isn’t.

Also, the user who felt ashamed and was calmly defending herself just commented here in the megathread further down, saying that she’s getting downvoted.

Nothing to apologize for, and whoever is downvoting you can go fuck themselves.

Yeah, the whole “protecting” sex workers like you is part of the whole patriarchal anti-feminist shit pie. Like you mentioned in one of your comments, it comes down to a sense of ownership over women and women’s bodies. Infantilizing “protection” of women is not the worker solidarity they pretend it is. It’s just couching misogyny in Marxist terms so they get to feel both superior and intellectual about their sexist brainworms.

You are not saying crazy stuff, and you are doing good work that really does help people. You should be proud of that. And you can be proud of it while still recognizing the dangers of such work in this world as it is, and the inevitable exploitation that happens with all work under capitalism but that sex work suffers in particularly acute ways. The problem, as usual, is with capitalism. Not sex work inherently. And definitely not you.

As for migrating to hexbear, just do what you feel comfortable with. You can engage with both communities regardless of which one you have an account with, and you can maintain accounts on both instances too if you want. There are going to be problematic people to some degree in both, but yeah, I have to admit I was pretty shocked how bad lemmygrad is with this issue, and apparently feminism in general. edit: I do think hexbear will have your back better with this kind of thing, and we don’t even have downvoting here, so I think over all it’s going to be a less antagonistic atmosphere. I would say make an account and after a bit see which instance you like as your home instance more.

Anyway, since it got removed over there, I’ll say it again here: Solidarity and compassion to you, comrade. You’re valid and awesome and don’t ever let SWERFs make you think otherwise.

edit. And thanks for having the courage to say what you did in the thread over there even with people downvoting you, and also thanks for your comment here, I appreciate it.

Ok, I see. Yeah that doesn’t surprise me after today. It’s too bad her post is gone.

You got banned from genzedong not lemmygrad,

You’re right. Fixed.

yeah that’s a problem with lemmygrad, they’re not really swerf as much as not read up on feminism

Disappointing. Not being read up on a topic is one thing, but when actively spouting misogynist SWERF rhetoric, I’d say that’s a deeper rot than simply not being read up. I know for a fact there are a number of lemmygraders who are not like that, and are very much feminists and support sex workers because I’ve talked to them in the past. But judging by that thread and the support there for the SWERF, it really does point to it being a real problem with the site culture.

Looking around a bit I see there have been long-time and well known trans hexbears that wanted to defederate from lemmygrad due to the transphobia too.

I don’t understand, they had a post talking about their position on sex work?

I just got banned from lemmygrad c/genzedong on lemmygrad for calling out blatant sexism where a user was shaming sexworkers (as said by someone else, a sexworker, who literally talked about the shame a SWERF lemmygrad user was making them feel). But a comment where I expressed solidarity with that person and told them they shouldn’t feel ashamed of the work they do was removed for “rule 2” which is… bigotry, sexism, etc. So rule 2 states you aren’t allowed to call out bigotry and sexism I guess? These losers call themselves leftists?!

I’m sickened to see sexism and sexphobic rhetoric getting more upvotes in a place I thought was supposed to be progressive and not a reactionary shithole where misogyny is allowed and encouraged and people who call it out get banned with their comments removed. Yeah, I’m mad. Fuck lemmygrad, at least the SWERFs and apparently the SWERF-supportive mods.

I guess I’ve been spoiled by hexbear usually being so good about these sort of issues, I forget that other leftist spaces are often still rife with sexist bigoted SWERF assholes. Lemmygrad and hexbear overlap so much these days (which 99% of the time is great) I wasn’t remembering that lemmygrad really does have its own distinct site culture, and at least one aspect of it is really… not good. I will not be shamed by SWERFs and I will not allow my comrades to be shamed by SWERFs when I can do anything to help it.

Sorry, just had to vent somewhere, but this wasn’t worth a whole post.