I have to caulk it up to young people learning about socialism and communism for the first time, but they’re only reading Marx and Lenin.
Like hey guys, they lost pretty hard. Maybe we shouldn’t do exactly the same thing and in fact there’s decades of work outlining what we should do instead?
Yes! Their positions and actions are suspiciously very demobilising.
No unity even in the most basic stuff. No willingness to hold a constructive conversation. Things have to be done in their way or you’re labeled an enemy. Doctrine above humanity. Incessant nitpicking.
How do they intend to build socialism if they can’t even have an honest, good faith conversation?
A “leftist” earlier this week told me that Joe Biden is responsible for Dobbs because it happened in 2022. That’s a cosplaying Republican. The red hat will be back on his head end-of-day November 3rd.
It was crazy the amount of red scare shit circling when I started on Lemmy. It was like they were trying to radicalize people by pitting them against the “crazy leftists.”
God, please never let McCarthyism make a come back. What a waste of our time and energy.
The problem is there are crazy “leftists” on lemmy. Your instance defederated from the instances home to the worst of them, so you probably didn’t get to experience it.
Imagine people the adhere to some of the worst parts of right-wing fascism, but with “leftist” branding.
I can understand looking back to them for some useful stuff. “Commieblock” housing served a purpose at the time, for example. They brought huge masses of people into an urban environment with indoor plumbing, electricity, and climate control, which were not a given in their previous living situations. They were meant as an interim solution to last a few decades. For what they set out to do, they were a great success. The only problem was that the followup to better options was never done.
But the Leninist/Maoists can never leave it at pulling out successes like that. It’s almost always “America bad”, “Holodomor isn’t real”, or “Cuba only sucks because of sanctions”.
america is bad, research by anticommunist historians after the fall of the soviet union lead to the irrefutable conclusion that holodomor isn’t real (holodomor means intentional genocidal famine, not just that there was a famine that lots of people died in) and cuba has problems but the main reason it sucks is because of sanctions.
Famine because of bad policy is not a win, either. That’s the best case interpretation. However, there are plenty of tankies who will tell you there were no mass deaths at all.
may i see the tankies saying there was no mass death during the famine? I have never in many years of interacting with communists heard someone say that.
This is why I pull largely from my half crazed redneck version of leftism. Cant make an authoritarian out of someone who doesnt listen to aurhority outside of his fucken clan. I will listen to cops and be polite because I dont want the dumbfuck gorilla with a gun to shoot me. Makes it harder to spread the ideas of militant unions.
Is what we’ve been doing in the US working very well? Maybe the democrat party should look at why nobody is fired up to vote for them, even though the alternative is people like trump. It should be very easy to appeal to normal people, but even with cartoonish opposition, the democrats can’t bring themselves to much better. All I’m saying is you’re asking some tiny minority of the electorate (socialists) to introspect, when you’re better off asking the same of the people and parties that actually have power.
Cynical tinfoil hat moment but — making concessions to voters to beat the GOP means giving away valuable capital (physical and political) that those at the top would rather retain for themselves. It would certainly explain how both sides only ever get worse instead of better, and how ejections continuously come down to 51/49. They don’t have to be any good, they just have to be 1% better than the other one. A race to the bottom.
Your vote for Dems is what endangers the vulnerable like those in poverty. You consent to wealth and income inequality with your vote, and can only blame yourself for not improving your country.
I did that in 2016 and it didn’t progress shit. It made it worse like it will if we do that this year. I organized and pushed leftists in primaries and I was beaten by “moderates.” Specifically, nobody had a chance against the incumbent. It fucking sucks but I don’t want a declared fascist putting more assholes on judicial benches or pushing anti-trans, anti-women policies.
I’m with you on both parties sucking. But please, grow up. If you want to help, do it before the nominees are set. And don’t drag others into your misguided principles.
wtf have I done? I already said. Organized and gotten people elected to school boards, city council, and our mayor too. We primaried for state and federal elections but didn’t get our candidates. We didn’t pout and waste our votes on people who had no chance of getting elected. We sucked it the fuck up and tried to make sure Republicans didn’t get elected.
I don’t believe you at all. Any person informed enough to do what you said knows voting for Democrats only makes out situation worse by consenting to neoliberal capitalism. None of the hundreds of people affiliated with the Green party I’ve met have said that, so you’re lying.
voting for Democrats only makes out situation worse
Tell me you’re not a pregnant woman who needs obstetric care of any kind or a capitol policeman or trans or Hispanic or a person who’s trying to get sick days from their union or a Ukrainian
by consenting to neoliberal capitalism
Yes, everyone knows that simply not consenting to the system suddenly makes it go away. Just ask anyone who’s ever been on a traffic stop – you just have to tell the policeman you do not consent, and all of a sudden, everything changes, and it works out better that you didn’t go along with the system.
If only the civil rights movement had been privy to this knowledge, they could have done their decades of work to make the system better much more simply and easily
It hasn’t though. Dems aren’t Communists, but they’ve moved slowly toward the left over decades.
Even if strategy A is a total failure, that’s no indication that strategy B will succeed just because it isn’t strategy A. That’s a ridiculous conclusion. It’s like saying “Bloodletting didn’t cure my cancer, therefore healing crystals will!”.
they’ve moved slowly toward the left over decades.
Absolutely false. Dems have moved to the right for decades since Clinton’s attacks on the working class with NAFTA. Obama called himself a moderate republican and governed like it. Read “Listen, Liberal” by Thomas Frank for a detailed description of this.
Even if strategy A is a total failure, that’s no indication that strategy B will succeed just because it isn’t strategy A
Then try it and see, that’s how it works. Instead you want to consent to the Democratic party’s right wing policies without getting any concession for your vote. ___
Dems have moved to the right for decades since Clinton’s attacks on the working class with NAFTA. Obama called himself a moderate republican and governed like it.
So your assertion is that the arc Clinton -> Obama -> Biden represents an increasing rightward shift in the party, is it?
Do you know what would have happened to a self-described socialist who tried to get the nomination in 1996, or a Palestinian congresswoman who talked about “From the river to the sea” in 2008?
Read “Listen, Liberal” by Thomas Frank for a detailed description of this.
I genuinely started looking for this, because I was curious what it had to say, but then I reread how you summarized it and concluded I probably don’t need to.
Yeah, we tried that, in 2016. We saw: Trump won, stacked the courts, dismantled public services, rolled back taxes on billionaires and shifted the tax burden onto the working class, dismantled pandemic watchdog labs which directly lead to the pandemic, and that’s just scratching the surface. How did Dems respond? Biden.
We tried it, we saw, it was an abject failure that played right into the hands of the far right. You’re either politically illiterate, or a bad faith actor trying to make the country mask-off fascist by splitting the left
Hey wait a second that link only details democrats’ plans to beat 3rd party candidates in this election, not a plan to instill actual literal fascism, gutting environmental regulations, and ensuring that no one can reimpose those regulations for as long as this country remains this country
You’re not a “raging leftist” if you vote for Biden. At least vote PSL or Green use a brutal domestic terrorism campaign as leverage to blackmail politicians into overturning first-past-the-post as part of a multi-prong strategy that, even as extreme as you are, still includes a pragmatic hedge in the form of a vote for the lesser of two evils
Of course nobody should be terrorizing anyone. What I’m riffing off of is a perspective someone shared that basically you don’t protest with a vote for a loser, you protest by agitating for systemic change.
In the meantime while the broken system is in place, you feed it a minimally shitty input.
Reasonable people can definitely disagree on this.
One thing that may be interesting to think about: some percentage of the time an argument is made disingenuously to try to siphon off votes. An entirely genuine recommendation of an identical strategy is fair – as I said reasonable people can disagree – but perhaps calls for some introspection.
It’s too bad when your strategy mirrors that of your worst enemy! So the far leftist could perhaps instead chain himself to legislators’ doors (vehement objection to the system) while consenting to acknowledge reality with a disgusted harm reduction vote for the marginally less-bad elderly man.
The best available choice isn’t always one that you want to make. It’s fine to hate the idea of voting strategically, I hate it too, but it’s naive to think you can positively affect the system by going with the option you want the most.
No, we can say with absolute certainty that (barring any issues with mortality) either Trump or Biden will win this year. I assume others will vote for those two for the same reason I assume that the sun will rise tomorrow.
ETA: I was right about the sunrise. Check back in a few months to find out if I was right about the president!
I’m a raging leftist but I’m getting tired of “deontologists” telling me they refuse to vote for Biden then telling me how great Xi Jinping is.
I have to caulk it up to young people learning about socialism and communism for the first time, but they’re only reading Marx and Lenin.
Like hey guys, they lost pretty hard. Maybe we shouldn’t do exactly the same thing and in fact there’s decades of work outlining what we should do instead?
That’s the charitable interpretation. The less charitable one is astroturfing aiming to further destabilize “the west”
Yes! Their positions and actions are suspiciously very demobilising.
No unity even in the most basic stuff. No willingness to hold a constructive conversation. Things have to be done in their way or you’re labeled an enemy. Doctrine above humanity. Incessant nitpicking.
How do they intend to build socialism if they can’t even have an honest, good faith conversation?
A “leftist” earlier this week told me that Joe Biden is responsible for Dobbs because it happened in 2022. That’s a cosplaying Republican. The red hat will be back on his head end-of-day November 3rd.
It was crazy the amount of red scare shit circling when I started on Lemmy. It was like they were trying to radicalize people by pitting them against the “crazy leftists.”
God, please never let McCarthyism make a come back. What a waste of our time and energy.
The problem is there are crazy “leftists” on lemmy. Your instance defederated from the instances home to the worst of them, so you probably didn’t get to experience it.
Imagine people the adhere to some of the worst parts of right-wing fascism, but with “leftist” branding.
I can understand looking back to them for some useful stuff. “Commieblock” housing served a purpose at the time, for example. They brought huge masses of people into an urban environment with indoor plumbing, electricity, and climate control, which were not a given in their previous living situations. They were meant as an interim solution to last a few decades. For what they set out to do, they were a great success. The only problem was that the followup to better options was never done.
But the Leninist/Maoists can never leave it at pulling out successes like that. It’s almost always “America bad”, “Holodomor isn’t real”, or “Cuba only sucks because of sanctions”.
you kinda had me in the first half, ngl.
america is bad, research by anticommunist historians after the fall of the soviet union lead to the irrefutable conclusion that holodomor isn’t real (holodomor means intentional genocidal famine, not just that there was a famine that lots of people died in) and cuba has problems but the main reason it sucks is because of sanctions.
Famine because of bad policy is not a win, either. That’s the best case interpretation. However, there are plenty of tankies who will tell you there were no mass deaths at all.
may i see the tankies saying there was no mass death during the famine? I have never in many years of interacting with communists heard someone say that.
Sure, I’ll just wade through a decade of Reddit comments to find some to satisfy your curiosity.
Maybe don’t make shit up then if you don’t have examples
Fuck man, even Marx and Lenin don’t cotton to the common tankie arguments about all non-socialist movements being the same.
This is why I pull largely from my half crazed redneck version of leftism. Cant make an authoritarian out of someone who doesnt listen to aurhority outside of his fucken clan. I will listen to cops and be polite because I dont want the dumbfuck gorilla with a gun to shoot me. Makes it harder to spread the ideas of militant unions.
Is what we’ve been doing in the US working very well? Maybe the democrat party should look at why nobody is fired up to vote for them, even though the alternative is people like trump. It should be very easy to appeal to normal people, but even with cartoonish opposition, the democrats can’t bring themselves to much better. All I’m saying is you’re asking some tiny minority of the electorate (socialists) to introspect, when you’re better off asking the same of the people and parties that actually have power.
Cynical tinfoil hat moment but — making concessions to voters to beat the GOP means giving away valuable capital (physical and political) that those at the top would rather retain for themselves. It would certainly explain how both sides only ever get worse instead of better, and how ejections continuously come down to 51/49. They don’t have to be any good, they just have to be 1% better than the other one. A race to the bottom.
Now realize that the people at the top win no matter which party is in power.
“Democrat party”
Good point.
IYKYK
CMYK
Conservatives are just shuffling cards.
You’re not a “raging leftist” if you vote for Biden. At least vote PSL or Green
This post is about you, you idiot.
Your vote for Dems is what endangers the vulnerable like those in poverty. You consent to wealth and income inequality with your vote, and can only blame yourself for not improving your country.
What do you think happens if I do that?
Actual progress towards changing the Democratic party instead of consenting to it’s right wing policies that are enabled by your vote.
I did that in 2016 and it didn’t progress shit. It made it worse like it will if we do that this year. I organized and pushed leftists in primaries and I was beaten by “moderates.” Specifically, nobody had a chance against the incumbent. It fucking sucks but I don’t want a declared fascist putting more assholes on judicial benches or pushing anti-trans, anti-women policies.
I’m with you on both parties sucking. But please, grow up. If you want to help, do it before the nominees are set. And don’t drag others into your misguided principles.
Did your lazy ass do anything else?
Jill Stein is a good candidate in a historically weak election for the ruling class.
I’ve gotten dozens of people to vote Green in my state, what have you done?
“There are dozens of us.” lol
wtf have I done? I already said. Organized and gotten people elected to school boards, city council, and our mayor too. We primaried for state and federal elections but didn’t get our candidates. We didn’t pout and waste our votes on people who had no chance of getting elected. We sucked it the fuck up and tried to make sure Republicans didn’t get elected.
I’ve been looking through your comments and have confirmed you are a fake. Where can I see any evidence of your “efforts” to help the Green party?
I don’t believe you at all. Any person informed enough to do what you said knows voting for Democrats only makes out situation worse by consenting to neoliberal capitalism. None of the hundreds of people affiliated with the Green party I’ve met have said that, so you’re lying.
Tell me you’re not a pregnant woman who needs obstetric care of any kind or a capitol policeman or trans or Hispanic or a person who’s trying to get sick days from their union or a Ukrainian
Yes, everyone knows that simply not consenting to the system suddenly makes it go away. Just ask anyone who’s ever been on a traffic stop – you just have to tell the policeman you do not consent, and all of a sudden, everything changes, and it works out better that you didn’t go along with the system.
If only the civil rights movement had been privy to this knowledge, they could have done their decades of work to make the system better much more simply and easily
Well, that’s just a bad argument.
Good day, sir.
How did you come to that conclusion?
Decades of your strategy failing every time to move the Dems to the left.
It hasn’t though. Dems aren’t Communists, but they’ve moved slowly toward the left over decades.
Even if strategy A is a total failure, that’s no indication that strategy B will succeed just because it isn’t strategy A. That’s a ridiculous conclusion. It’s like saying “Bloodletting didn’t cure my cancer, therefore healing crystals will!”.
Absolutely false. Dems have moved to the right for decades since Clinton’s attacks on the working class with NAFTA. Obama called himself a moderate republican and governed like it. Read “Listen, Liberal” by Thomas Frank for a detailed description of this.
Then try it and see, that’s how it works. Instead you want to consent to the Democratic party’s right wing policies without getting any concession for your vote. ___
So your assertion is that the arc Clinton -> Obama -> Biden represents an increasing rightward shift in the party, is it?
Do you know what would have happened to a self-described socialist who tried to get the nomination in 1996, or a Palestinian congresswoman who talked about “From the river to the sea” in 2008?
I genuinely started looking for this, because I was curious what it had to say, but then I reread how you summarized it and concluded I probably don’t need to.
Yeah, we tried that, in 2016. We saw: Trump won, stacked the courts, dismantled public services, rolled back taxes on billionaires and shifted the tax burden onto the working class, dismantled pandemic watchdog labs which directly lead to the pandemic, and that’s just scratching the surface. How did Dems respond? Biden.
We tried it, we saw, it was an abject failure that played right into the hands of the far right. You’re either politically illiterate, or a bad faith actor trying to make the country mask-off fascist by splitting the left
Project 2025, stupid. Letting Trump win means no progressive wins again in this country. Anti progress.
Imagine thinking you’re defending democracy by voting for someone you don’t want. LOL
Wow, you can type the opposite thing that someone said and pretend that you have a point. How incredibly stupid of you.
What exactly is Biden’s plan to avoid letting a progressive win in the country ever again? Because Trump is the one with Project 2025.
Imagine thinking you’re defending democracy by voting for someone you don’t want. LOL
I, on the other hand, express democracy by voting for a candidate that I support, Jill Stein.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/dnc-war-third-party-candidates-rcna143290
But Jill Stein is not going to win, even if you vote for her. Voting for her works against your interests.
Hey wait a second that link only details democrats’ plans to beat 3rd party candidates in this election, not a plan to instill actual literal fascism, gutting environmental regulations, and ensuring that no one can reimpose those regulations for as long as this country remains this country
Did you even read the link you sent?
Of course nobody should be terrorizing anyone. What I’m riffing off of is a perspective someone shared that basically you don’t protest with a vote for a loser, you protest by agitating for systemic change.
In the meantime while the broken system is in place, you feed it a minimally shitty input.
The fuck? Just vote for third parties where did you get that bullshit from?
You consent to this system with a vote for Dems.
Reasonable people can definitely disagree on this.
One thing that may be interesting to think about: some percentage of the time an argument is made disingenuously to try to siphon off votes. An entirely genuine recommendation of an identical strategy is fair – as I said reasonable people can disagree – but perhaps calls for some introspection.
It’s too bad when your strategy mirrors that of your worst enemy! So the far leftist could perhaps instead chain himself to legislators’ doors (vehement objection to the system) while consenting to acknowledge reality with a disgusted harm reduction vote for the marginally less-bad elderly man.
Do you think being incredibly stupid is a prereq for being a raging leftist or something?
It is a prereq for voting for Biden
No, understanding how the voting system works isn’t stupid
You misunderstand the voting system because you vote for someone you don’t like.
The best available choice isn’t always one that you want to make. It’s fine to hate the idea of voting strategically, I hate it too, but it’s naive to think you can positively affect the system by going with the option you want the most.
Voting for someone you disagree with is not voting strategically, it’s voting against your interests based on what you assume others will do.
No, we can say with absolute certainty that (barring any issues with mortality) either Trump or Biden will win this year. I assume others will vote for those two for the same reason I assume that the sun will rise tomorrow.
ETA: I was right about the sunrise. Check back in a few months to find out if I was right about the president!