Are we having two different conversations? Did you read what I wrote?
I’m not advocating voting third party, nor am I rationalizing a two party system as some type of conspiracy.
I was simply stating a desire for a system that actually produces real choices instead of the one we currently have that forces a choice nobody wants. How we get to that is another discussion, but frankly, we can’t have that discussion when one party is panicking about loosing voters who are dissatisfied with the choices on offer because (i’m looking at you here) every statement of dissatisfaction is interpreted as subterfuge.
Last I checked, I’m not Biden and so I’m not panicking about “loosing” voters.
I learned for the final time in 2016 that the voters in this country are determined to take it to the brink of disaster every 4-8 years no matter what absurdity is carried into the office by the R behind his name.
I just genuinely don’t understand the positions of third party voters nor their apologists (I’m looking at you here).
Last I checked, I’m not Biden and so I’m not panicking about “loosing” voters.
So you’re not critiquing 3rd party voters for spoiling their vote and letting Trump take the white house? What other reason would you disagree with voting 3rd party?
I just genuinely don’t understand the positions of third party voters nor their apologists (I’m looking at you here).
I actually think you’re selling yourself short here - I think you do understand, you just disagree with the risk they’re willing to take in their pursuit.
What other reason would you disagree with voting 3rd party?
Because it will in no way help achieve any of the things they claim to want.
Which is why I don’t understand their position nor those who apologize for them.
Third parties and their voters are just another sideshow in the American three-ring electoral circus, and I genuinely don’t understand how people view them as anything other than that.
Because it will in no way help achieve any of the things they claim to want.
this isn’t true, it shows there is a real caucus of active votes who are disenfranchised by the two parties. Whenever there is a breakout 3rd party, there is usually a period of policy realignment in the larger caucuses to pull them back in.
What I think you mean is that it doesn’t achieve any electoral outcome, especially one that denies office to a fascist asshole we all oppose. And while that’s not an outcome anybody really wants, it does provide an opportunity to bring the democrats to the table when they wouldn’t ordinarily be willing, which makes threatening to do so particularly effective this cycle.
What I think you mean is that it doesn’t achieve any electoral outcome, especially one that denies office to a fascist asshole we all oppose.
Nope, that does not cover everything. A lot of people will say “we need more parties, and we should encourage more parties” just like you were saying two posts up and they’ll use that as their reason for voting third party as if that in any way helps improve the short-term or the long-term viability for a national third party that does not just wind up becoming a half-plank (if that) in one of the existing two party’s platform.
People voted for Jill Stein and Gary Johnson in 2016 and it did nothing to advance the national viability of the Green or Libertarian parties.
In addition (as you acknowledge), they also did nothing to advance the cause of either the Green or Libertarian party in terms of actual policy. Republicans became less Libertarian as a result of their 2016 win (adding record amounts to the deficit and debt, cracking down on weed users, becoming notably more authoritarian, and even gasp enacting new gun regulations), and the Republican-led government (of course) worked explicitly against Green party principles.
Three-party system advocates that try to take a “vote-only” or even “make my own party” (with blackjack and hookers) approach to achieving a viable, national 3rd party are misguided clowns.
You’re leaving out what happened after Jill Stein lost her bid in 2016: many (not most, not even a lot, but a few) of their positions were adopted by the DNC the following cycle (aspects of the green new deal, weed legalization, even Biden’s student debt relief could partially be attributed to their free tuition position). Third parties (and third party candidates caucusing with the establishment parties) help move the overton window by forcing debate and consideration, even if it doesn’t end up moving the window much.
I’ll even go out on a limb and say that you’re mostly right: electoral politics generally does fuck-all to move the needle for more progressive governance, and even in the few instances where progressives eek out a few concessions they’re usually compromised to all hell and are no longer effective by the time they’re implemented. But saying that voting third party ‘does nothing’ is like denying the existence of gravity. Organized resistance to establishment politics -no matter what form that takes- is possibly the only way to move the needle when it comes to the two party system aside from holding primaries, but you might have noticed that didn’t really happen this year for the democrats. Third parties represent a threat to establishment parties, and because of that threat they have some amount of leverage and bargaining power.
I’ll be charitable again and float the possibility that you do actually see these benefits (small they may be) to third party activities, but you may just think that those small benefits aren’t worth the cost or risk. I’ll even concede that those concerns are fair and justified (for those who still see value in the democratic party), but denying the political reality of those organizations is more than a little defeatist (or wishful thinking, depending on your leaning).
*Edit: and if you’ve still decided you don’t understand those dynamics, then I’ll float the question: what do you think is an effective way to push the needle left?
You’re leaving out what happened after Jill Stein lost her bid in 2016: many (not most, not even a lot, but a few) of their positions were adopted by the DNC the following cycle (aspects of the green new deal, weed legalization, even Biden’s student debt relief could partially be attributed to their free tuition position).
You’re pretending that Jill Stein votes caused any of this when they obviously didn’t. Bernie (working from within the party) made these leftward changes in the Democratic party, and he started doing it during the 2016 primary.
Third parties represent a threat to establishment parties, and because of that threat they have some amount of leverage and bargaining power.
The only time in my lifetime I have ever seen a third party candidate have any leverage or bargaining power at all nationally was Ross Perot in 1992 and the only thing he maybe achieved is that he pushed Clinton slightly rightward (EDIT: even that’s debatable, as the Dems had lost the white house for over a decade and had to get Reagan voters somehow to get into office). The only reason he was relevant at all too was because he spent a crazy amount of money buying airtime, which is exactly the opposite of what you’re saying here with grass roots voters having more influence.
Same goes for RFK, Jr. btw, the guy is only talked about at all because Republicans want him to be a spoiler candidate for Biden, he had a famous dad, and because he bought a super bowl spot. It’s a joke. He might as well be one of those English candidates for office that show up to debates dressed up in costumes.
denying the political reality of those organizations is more than a little defeatist (or wishful thinking, depending on your leaning)
I’m not denying that they exist nor their “political reality”. If anyone is denying political reality here it’s you by pretending that third parties do all kinds of impactful work that they clearly don’t. Even Teddy fucking Roosevelt couldn’t get into office without the two party system and in the end made himself a spoiler that got Woodrow Wilson into office.
It’s pretty clear what I think, they’re ineffective. They’re far from the best way (and I’d argue aren’t even a way) to achieve any actual change or desired outcome nationally, and they produce nonviable, loser candidates that just add another turd to the shit show that is American politics.
If you’re looking to actually change national policy in America, you have to start by living in reality and working inside of the two-party system instead of denying it and having the “brilliant idea nobody ever thought of before” and launching yet another third-party.
If you want to actually have more choice in elections, you have to start by organizing movements to change the way votes are tallied and people are elected. It probably makes more sense to start those kinds of movements at the lowest possible level (i.e. local, then state, then national). The American system of (largely) “first past the post” practically guarantees that you’ll have two national parties, and our national history provides evidentiary support for exactly that.
Look at Andrew Yang, the only reason he and UBI were briefly in the national conversation is that he ran as a Democrat. He has since formed his “forward party” and was never heard from again.
If you want to actually have more choice in elections, you have to start by organizing movements to change[…]
Ah, ok, here’s something we can agree on. All political power originates in organized resistance, full-stop. The relative effectiveness of third party candidates is really just an indirect measure of what is otherwise just a group of voters exercising collective power over the electoral system.
You can hand-wave away the green party’s roll in the DNC taking on more progressive policies if you choose to (lol to it being ‘obvious’ that they didn’t, Bernie himself was a third-party candidate that caucused with the democrats in 2016), but saying change only happens ‘within the two-party system’ is ridiculous. Civil rights leaders famously organized outside of that system in order to pressure it to act on civil rights; the same could be said for organized protestors now placing pressure on the DNC from the outside to push for an end to the Palestinian genocide.
3rd party candidates are just another form of collective organization, and that organization has power the same as any other collective movement. The trouble you’re running into trying to measure their effectiveness is in looking at electoral outcomes as an end-goal.
But you are right, though; you can place more leverage over local and state government elections than you can in national elections, but some issues simply cannot be addressed at the local level. To have any hope at pressuring change on the national DNC platform, organized resistance has to happen outside of that system, especially when that structure has closed itself off from internal debate.
Measuring the success of those structures outside the 2-party system simply isn’t as easy as looking at electoral outcomes, and that’s the weakness of liberalism generally (it ignores power structures that exist outside the primary structure). The electoral system is not neutral and requires great pressure to move it.
Are we having two different conversations? Did you read what I wrote?
I’m not advocating voting third party, nor am I rationalizing a two party system as some type of conspiracy.
I was simply stating a desire for a system that actually produces real choices instead of the one we currently have that forces a choice nobody wants. How we get to that is another discussion, but frankly, we can’t have that discussion when one party is panicking about loosing voters who are dissatisfied with the choices on offer because (i’m looking at you here) every statement of dissatisfaction is interpreted as subterfuge.
Last I checked, I’m not Biden and so I’m not panicking about “loosing” voters.
I learned for the final time in 2016 that the voters in this country are determined to take it to the brink of disaster every 4-8 years no matter what absurdity is carried into the office by the R behind his name.
I just genuinely don’t understand the positions of third party voters nor their apologists (I’m looking at you here).
So you’re not critiquing 3rd party voters for spoiling their vote and letting Trump take the white house? What other reason would you disagree with voting 3rd party?
I actually think you’re selling yourself short here - I think you do understand, you just disagree with the risk they’re willing to take in their pursuit.
Because it will in no way help achieve any of the things they claim to want.
Which is why I don’t understand their position nor those who apologize for them.
Third parties and their voters are just another sideshow in the American three-ring electoral circus, and I genuinely don’t understand how people view them as anything other than that.
this isn’t true, it shows there is a real caucus of active votes who are disenfranchised by the two parties. Whenever there is a breakout 3rd party, there is usually a period of policy realignment in the larger caucuses to pull them back in.
What I think you mean is that it doesn’t achieve any electoral outcome, especially one that denies office to a fascist asshole we all oppose. And while that’s not an outcome anybody really wants, it does provide an opportunity to bring the democrats to the table when they wouldn’t ordinarily be willing, which makes threatening to do so particularly effective this cycle.
Nope, that does not cover everything. A lot of people will say “we need more parties, and we should encourage more parties” just like you were saying two posts up and they’ll use that as their reason for voting third party as if that in any way helps improve the short-term or the long-term viability for a national third party that does not just wind up becoming a half-plank (if that) in one of the existing two party’s platform.
People voted for Jill Stein and Gary Johnson in 2016 and it did nothing to advance the national viability of the Green or Libertarian parties.
In addition (as you acknowledge), they also did nothing to advance the cause of either the Green or Libertarian party in terms of actual policy. Republicans became less Libertarian as a result of their 2016 win (adding record amounts to the deficit and debt, cracking down on weed users, becoming notably more authoritarian, and even gasp enacting new gun regulations), and the Republican-led government (of course) worked explicitly against Green party principles.
Three-party system advocates that try to take a “vote-only” or even “make my own party” (with blackjack and hookers) approach to achieving a viable, national 3rd party are misguided clowns.
You’re leaving out what happened after Jill Stein lost her bid in 2016: many (not most, not even a lot, but a few) of their positions were adopted by the DNC the following cycle (aspects of the green new deal, weed legalization, even Biden’s student debt relief could partially be attributed to their free tuition position). Third parties (and third party candidates caucusing with the establishment parties) help move the overton window by forcing debate and consideration, even if it doesn’t end up moving the window much.
I’ll even go out on a limb and say that you’re mostly right: electoral politics generally does fuck-all to move the needle for more progressive governance, and even in the few instances where progressives eek out a few concessions they’re usually compromised to all hell and are no longer effective by the time they’re implemented. But saying that voting third party ‘does nothing’ is like denying the existence of gravity. Organized resistance to establishment politics -no matter what form that takes- is possibly the only way to move the needle when it comes to the two party system aside from holding primaries, but you might have noticed that didn’t really happen this year for the democrats. Third parties represent a threat to establishment parties, and because of that threat they have some amount of leverage and bargaining power.
I’ll be charitable again and float the possibility that you do actually see these benefits (small they may be) to third party activities, but you may just think that those small benefits aren’t worth the cost or risk. I’ll even concede that those concerns are fair and justified (for those who still see value in the democratic party), but denying the political reality of those organizations is more than a little defeatist (or wishful thinking, depending on your leaning).
*Edit: and if you’ve still decided you don’t understand those dynamics, then I’ll float the question: what do you think is an effective way to push the needle left?
You’re pretending that Jill Stein votes caused any of this when they obviously didn’t. Bernie (working from within the party) made these leftward changes in the Democratic party, and he started doing it during the 2016 primary.
The only time in my lifetime I have ever seen a third party candidate have any leverage or bargaining power at all nationally was Ross Perot in 1992 and the only thing he maybe achieved is that he pushed Clinton slightly rightward (EDIT: even that’s debatable, as the Dems had lost the white house for over a decade and had to get Reagan voters somehow to get into office). The only reason he was relevant at all too was because he spent a crazy amount of money buying airtime, which is exactly the opposite of what you’re saying here with grass roots voters having more influence.
Same goes for RFK, Jr. btw, the guy is only talked about at all because Republicans want him to be a spoiler candidate for Biden, he had a famous dad, and because he bought a super bowl spot. It’s a joke. He might as well be one of those English candidates for office that show up to debates dressed up in costumes.
I’m not denying that they exist nor their “political reality”. If anyone is denying political reality here it’s you by pretending that third parties do all kinds of impactful work that they clearly don’t. Even Teddy fucking Roosevelt couldn’t get into office without the two party system and in the end made himself a spoiler that got Woodrow Wilson into office.
It’s pretty clear what I think, they’re ineffective. They’re far from the best way (and I’d argue aren’t even a way) to achieve any actual change or desired outcome nationally, and they produce nonviable, loser candidates that just add another turd to the shit show that is American politics.
If you’re looking to actually change national policy in America, you have to start by living in reality and working inside of the two-party system instead of denying it and having the “brilliant idea nobody ever thought of before” and launching yet another third-party.
If you want to actually have more choice in elections, you have to start by organizing movements to change the way votes are tallied and people are elected. It probably makes more sense to start those kinds of movements at the lowest possible level (i.e. local, then state, then national). The American system of (largely) “first past the post” practically guarantees that you’ll have two national parties, and our national history provides evidentiary support for exactly that.
Look at Andrew Yang, the only reason he and UBI were briefly in the national conversation is that he ran as a Democrat. He has since formed his “forward party” and was never heard from again.
Ah, ok, here’s something we can agree on. All political power originates in organized resistance, full-stop. The relative effectiveness of third party candidates is really just an indirect measure of what is otherwise just a group of voters exercising collective power over the electoral system.
You can hand-wave away the green party’s roll in the DNC taking on more progressive policies if you choose to (lol to it being ‘obvious’ that they didn’t, Bernie himself was a third-party candidate that caucused with the democrats in 2016), but saying change only happens ‘within the two-party system’ is ridiculous. Civil rights leaders famously organized outside of that system in order to pressure it to act on civil rights; the same could be said for organized protestors now placing pressure on the DNC from the outside to push for an end to the Palestinian genocide.
3rd party candidates are just another form of collective organization, and that organization has power the same as any other collective movement. The trouble you’re running into trying to measure their effectiveness is in looking at electoral outcomes as an end-goal.
But you are right, though; you can place more leverage over local and state government elections than you can in national elections, but some issues simply cannot be addressed at the local level. To have any hope at pressuring change on the national DNC platform, organized resistance has to happen outside of that system, especially when that structure has closed itself off from internal debate.
Measuring the success of those structures outside the 2-party system simply isn’t as easy as looking at electoral outcomes, and that’s the weakness of liberalism generally (it ignores power structures that exist outside the primary structure). The electoral system is not neutral and requires great pressure to move it.