A human rights monitor documented the sniping of at least 13 children in and around Shifa Hospital, all between the ages of 4 and 16.
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The chokehold Israeli Intelligence / Propaganda wing has on reddits worldnews subreddit is freakin depressing (and scary in how total it is).
Post anything even remotely critical to anything Israel did and within minutes you’ll have a dozen downvotes and people outright warping reality in their response to you, all on relatively recent accounts that only ever respond to posts related to Israel. They aren’t subtle about it in the slightest.
And stories like them murdering foreign aid workers on purpose just get magicked away.
Israel has an app that’s used to target various sites etc. with propaganda. It has various material for people to post, guides on how to post/sign up to platforms, premade memes, etc. It’s absolutely ridiculous.
Caelan Conrad (I believe) used to have a video up on the subject, where they used and walked through the app, but it’s mysteriously gone missing. Act.il’s own YouTube channel remains, though.
TIL, why my comments get downvoted. At this point, I’m not even mad.
Issue is when a relevant criticism of Israel is labeled as anti-Israel/anti-semitic.
Just like it is an issue when anti-semitic/anti-Israel content is labeled as a relevant criticism. Needless to say, at least here on lemmy I see the second situation not very common.
I’ve lost a lot of sympathy and just regard for Israel’s right to exist. I don’t want anyone to suffer, but I could care less if Israel as a political power were to disappear tomorrow if it meant a halt to the indiscriminate killing of people having nothing to do with attacks on Israeli people/territory.
It’s nuts because me 10 years ago would smack current me across the mouth for even thinking such a thing. As things are, Israel is acting like a bunch of nazis. Just crazy.
If Israel disappeared, the situation would be far worse. Because despite all of their actions, israel is still million times better than Iran and its proxies.
What I can agree with you, though, is the fact that current regime there and people in power are dangerous both for Israel itself and the rest of the world
israel is still million times better than Iran and its proxies.
What the fuck? No it’s not. Israel is a literal Apartheid state. The fuck are they better than Iran.
So rather terrorist organizations that don’t mind to bomb anyone from Israel to Russia? Fine.
Israel is doing a literal genocide. It’s hard to get much worse than that.
Uh… Literally yes. You’re strawmanning hard, but even with your strawman literally yes. Israel is just that bad.
What the fuck you, guy. Utterly divorced from reality. Iran has as its guiding religious and political purpose the genocide of all Jews and Christians in the middle east, same goals as Hamas.
They think God is on their side and so they don’t realize that they are no match for Israel. When they do finally take their shot at Israel, tens of millions of people will be killed, notably when Israel turns Tehran into a sheet of glass. Think about how sads you are about 30,000 deaths and then try out how you might feel over 30,000,000 deaths. Utterly delusional assessment, as is calling Israel an apartheid state. The defining feature of apartheid is minority rule over the majority of its citizens. Israel doesn’t have that. Not only are Gazans not citizens of Israel, they aren’t citizens of any country. Israel is in fact, in law, and in political science a flawed democracy, same as America, which is by every concievable metric better than Iran, unless you use metrics such as “public executions carried out by secret religious police” or “number of human rights trampled because Mosque Daddy says so.”
It’s absolutely stunning that you don’t realize this and so I have to ask, how far did you go in school and what did you study?
ran has as its guiding religious and political purpose the genocide of all Jews and Christians in the middle east, same goals as Hamas.
Uh… You do realize Hamas accepted a two-state solution ages ago, and that Gaza actually has Christians, right? I also hope you do realize that the fact that Gazans being stateless makes Israel more of an Apartheid state. Or maybe you’d prefer “settler colonialist state subjecting Palestinians to a brutal occupation”?
Anyway I’ll probably regret engaging with this steaming pile of propaganda, but I’ll ask: How do you feel about this, this and this?
Doesn’t Iran have loyal Jewish citizens?
They should totally know they are about to be genocided… /s
Are you seriously suggesting that Iran is better than Israel in any possible terms? Some people are so far up their ass.
Uh… Only one of these is committing genocide. Only one is an Apartheid state. Only one supports fucking ISIS. Y’all need to get your heads out of your asses and look at reality.
Genocide against Palestinians is okay because you are racist against Iranians (a country the US and Israel is oddly keen on sabotaging in every way possible).
I am not racist against Iranians. I just consider Iran quite a dangerous country considering what their proxies are doing.
Their ‘proxies’ are actually responding to Israeli genocide, I have more respect for Houthi rebels than most governments.
The concept of Transfer in Zionist thought and the displacement of Palestinians since the 1920s culminated into a full fledged ethnic cleansing campaign in 1948
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948
Transfer Committee and the JNF led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate.
Plan Dalet and Plan C Details
Before 1948, Palestinian Leadership repeatedly advocated for a Unitary Binational State for decades.
Palestinian Arab Congress advocating for Unified State 1928, Arab Higher Committee advocating for Unified State 1937 , Arab League advocating for Unified Binational State 1948
If Israel disappeared, a State where Palestinians have equal rights to Israelis would take its place.
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
Okay and. I don’t know how it is related.
Now do the concept of genociding every Jew and Christian in the middle east and the concept of blowing yourself up inside a coffee shop or doing a mass shooting at a kids concert.
If Israel disappeared, a State where Palestinians have equal rights to Israelis would take its place.
Bro, Hamas’s motto, same as the motto of every other pan-Islamist violent religious extremists in the middle east, “Death to Israel and death to America.”
They literally think God has ordained them to be the true rules of the entire world. They call it “restoring Islam to its rightful place” or they call it a “new world order free from infidels” or “the caliphate.”
Like where do you even get this fictitious nonsense?
Oslo Accords MEE, NYT, Haaretz, AJ
Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.
What Is Hamas? - Council on Foreign Relations
What Does Hamas Actually Want? - NY Mag
Hamas Election - Snopes
Hamas 1988 Charter and Revised 2017 Charter
The 1988 Charter, which is certainly unreasonable in its fundamentalism with Sharia Law and is antisemitic, does not call for the extermination of all Jewish People. The 2017 Revised charter accepts a Two-State Solution of the 1967 Borders. Check Article 7 and 13 of the 1988 Charter to see yourself, compare it to Article 20 and 24-26 in the revised charter
The slogan From the River to the Sea is about Palestinian liberation that started in the 60s by the PLO for a democratic secular state, not Genocide. Maybe you’re thinking of the Syrian leader Hafez al-Assad in 1966.
Like where do you even get this fictitious nonsense?
I don’t hide my sources. I don’t know where you get your fictitious nonsense besides the IDF.
How would it be far worse? And for whom?
The tens of millions of people of Iran after Israel retaliates, maybe the people in parts of Israel where Iron Dome can’t stop all of Iran’s missile, and the hundreds of millions of people throughout the Middle East, North Africa, and western and central Europe would will deal see a cascade of failed states stemming from a humanitarian and refugee catastrophe unlike anything the world has ever experienced. Like 30,000 people is a short footnote compared to 30,000,000, or the 300,000,000 dead and displaced we could see if col
And this is not difficult or hard to understand, but you do have to be able to set aside your sadness over 30,000 and think rationally about the 30,000,000. This the baseline from which America and virtually the entire political and foreign service contingencies of the western world derive their middle east policy. It’s all about isolating Iran.
Hamas actually is an ideology of genocideal violence and indiscriminate killing of civilians and is Iran’s proxy right on the border of America’s ally and the only democracy in the region.
The key point is there is that theocratic dictatorships desired by Iran, ISIS, Hamas, the Houthis, Islamic Jihad, and other, are fundamentally incapable of establishing or protecting human rights because their laws are based on religious whims of a one or two extreme religious muckity mucks.
So like, anyone actually concerned about humanity and human rights and yet throwing their weight in behind Iran or its proxies, against Israel, is doing the opposite of what they are concerned for. I know it’s hard. 30,000 people, very sad. Not nearly as sad as it could get, quickly and easily, though, if Iran jumps off.
There are plenty of people who know way more about this than I do who think hot war between Israel and Iran is imminent. If Trump gets reelected, he will definitely try to start it. He already did once, and the only reason it stopped is because when Iran responded, they accidentally shot down its own civilian airliner.
Hamas actually is an ideology of genocideal violence and indiscriminate killing of civilians and is Iran’s proxy right on the border of America’s ally and the only democracy in the region.
Man almost half the people Israel rules (Gaza and the West Bank are occupied no matter how much Zionists would like to believe otherwise, source: UN) don’t have voting (or human for that matter) rights. And we’re seeing them crack down on dissent using extrajudicial (or effectively extrajudicial) arrests as we speak. Democracy my ass.
For everyone. For the locals because these terrorist proxies do not seem to care about civilians at all and for the rest of the world because Iran would become a nuclear superpower and that’s pretty dangerous considering what their proxies are capable of.
For the locals because these terrorist proxies do not seem to care about civilians at all
There’s a reason it’s the US and not Iran that is known for bombing weddings. Not that I like Iran, but only one of them is called the Great Satan.
Meanwhile 1 billion Arabs in the world just shit post “genocide!” all day
Oh so I’m Arab now?
Wow.
Who knew?
Meanwhile 1 trillion Arabs in the world just shitpost “genocide!” all day.
Meanwhile one quadrillion…
There’s probably 300 million Arabs in the world. There’s a few billion people “in the world just shit post ‘genocide!’ all day” for very good reasons.
Uh… Uh… Uh…
The world doesn’t have one
millionbillion Arabs.Edit: Brainfart.
Wow, just like when you post anything remotely supportive of Israel or derogative of the Palestinian backwards society on lemmy?
How could it be?
But on no account should you consider yourself wrong. That can’t happen. Propaganda works only one way and not the other. Whenever there’s evidence of Hamas storing weapons or launching rockets next to schools and hospitals, it’s fake news. It’s source that can’t be trusted. But whenever something aligns with your beliefs that’s 100% true, evidence not required. Even now you are claiming they killed foreign aid workers on purpose when there was no investigation and no such claim anywhere. But it fits your narrative.
On the other hand if you post something against Ukraine and you are banned within minutes
Lemmy freedom of speech at its finest :)
Ukraine being clearly having the moral high ground as a sovereign state defending itself, yes, expect to be downvoted for trying to contract what we all see with our own eyes.
Bro they literally started the war 😂
WTF are you smoking, and where can I get some, comrade?
Impressive. How do you go about starting a defensive war of conquest?
By having the stupid idea of existing next to Russia (or a similar country).
…why would you be against Ukraine, exactly?
They’re a Russian stoog?
You can still say there is rampant corruption in ukraine. They have embezzeled billions in aid.
But it all seems miniscule in front of the existential crisi they are in.
Depends on the instance.
I don’t want to know what it does to a society when casually sniping 4 year olds is completely ok and accepted. After Gaza is razed, all of these soldiers will return as heroes, but will they be able to stop their habits?
I’m beginning to think many of them joined up specifically for the the purpose of slaughtering children. It feels like they’ve even dropped the pretense of all Palestinians being Hamas - at least I don’t hear them making that excuse all that much anymore. They seem to just enjoy the killing.
EDIT: Apparently military service in Israel is mandatory. I guess murdering Palestinian children en masse is just a bonus.
I’m not excusing any of their actions, because I’m genuinely horrified by Israel’s conduct, but the IDF is a conscripted military force. Every Israeli, excluding some ultra-orthodox extremists who get a controversial religious exemption, is required to serve a certain amount of time in the military after they turn 18. There are alternative public service options for conscientious objectors, but most 18 year olds end up with a rifle in their hand. That’s pretty fucked up if you ask me.
That means the majority of the soldiers perpetrating these atrocities are basically children themselves. They didn’t join so they could do a genocide, they joined because they had to, and are doing a genocide. I’m sure some of them are sick fuckers who enjoy it, but most are probably just following despicable, immoral, unforgivable orders from superiors. That’s not a justification, just an unfortunate likelihood.
That said, yes, it does seem like they’ve dropped the pretense.
I’d believe that more if they weren’t on Tik Tok laughing and joking about the horrific acts they’re doing, like demolishing whole neighborhoods, destroying hospitals, and killing people.
I’m pretty sure that in Israel, joining the military is not a choice.
Since years I see Israeli saying 'we have to eliminate the vipers nest ", meaning kill their babies and women, and bombing all health infrastructure so that women having babies dies more often
Yeah I heard many of the like eating babies as well. Hamas is there just as an excuse but in reality they are the good guys who just like drinking tea.
Yes that 4 year old should have renounced hamas the second he got within range.
I guess the thousands of dead women and children just did not condemn Hamas hard enough.
Fuck Israel. Free Palestine 🇵🇸
This is what unchecked conservatism looks like. Genocide.
That’s what war looks like. It’s disgusting. All of them are and always gruesome towards innocent.
This is not war. It’s just mass murder. If this was war, the conservatives would be targeting at least some combatants. The IDF intentionally targets civilians and aid workers. This is not what war is. This is what genocide is.
It was declared as war, it is being fought as war. It’s war. Technically in every aspect. The fact they are stronger means nothing. How do you know IDF is intentionally targeting civilians and then letting other 2 million of them go is a mystery to me but it’s not genocide because it’s not by definition “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”, because had that been the case, there would be no Gaza left, there would be no aid, there would be no humanitarian corridor.
Good thing there is no war in Ukraine, right? Your “logic” doesn’t make any sense.
We know they are intentionally targetting civillians because of all the incidents that happen. Yaknow, for decades actually. The kneecappings, the shooting at protesters, the shooting at medics who provide emergency care. It’s not up to debate - it is what they do and have always done.
Also your definition of genocide is shit - since it also covers forced displacement.
Also, there is no aid. What gets in is a fraction of a fraction of what’s needed. Who gives a shit that bottles of water, 20000 of them came in, when all that does is at best serve a single day for 20k people out of 2 million? Everything gets searched and often denied. There are countless aid trucks waiting on the other side of the border. Even what US was dropping was a tiny part of the need. Compared to the Berlin airlift, all this is, is showing idiots “look we give aid everything is fine”.
What humanitarian corridor too? The one where people get shot at with artillery?
You are either a troll, or a pelican that swallows every propaganda piece someone throws at you.
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Buddy, I literally have coworkers in Gaza that I am in constant contact with. I know a doctor that was in Al Shifa when the last assaults happened when it was still operating. I know people who were shot by Israelis. I know people who lost their entire family to a bomb that levelled a house right across the street from their house. You implying that “an inflated opinion of myself” makes all of this be false simply because you are the “enlightened one” is just sickening.
The other guy won because all you could do was say he was gobbling propaganda. He actually had definitions and reasons.
Forced displacement is in the UN definition of genocide tho
You are the troll, troll.
Do you really believe the IDF could so blatantly destroy all of Palestine without anyone noticing? The Israeli state would crumble without western support, they have to maintain plausible deniability. But their own policies state they don’t recognize Palestine.
Dude that’s literally what’s happening right now… they are trying to destroy all of palestine, we all have noticed, and it is crumbling… they are maintaining deniability even through bold-faced examples to the contrary… why you are saying is literally happening
You are right, I have been a little out of the loop on recent international reactions, I was surprised to read a recent UN report outlining the atrocities so effectively. Last I heard they are still allowing arms sales from the US though which is what I meant more specifically
It’s at least ethnic cleansing, as you can see Israeli politicians making conferences supporting resetting Gaza, taking West Bank (land seizures in West Bank is on a 30 year high), Canadian synagogues selling property in stolen land in West Bank, see vídeos of Israelis asking to carpet bomb Gaza, etc.
Even Ben Gurion and people at the time said they would accept an Israeli state as a base to take off the whole of Palestine
No it isn’t. What’s disgusting is you covering for war crimes.
I can’t imagine being a person who sees 4 year old kid in a scope and just shoots them…
Like. … what goes through their head…do they have their own kids… what they do in their free time…
I just cant imagine person like that.
At this point I’m afraid we can look at Nazis (oh the irony…) to understand those Israelis. The similarities of soulless brutality are pretty obvious…
Not ironic. Direct continuity; Israeli precursors helped with the holocaust. More tried, but hitler, for the first and last time in his life, was the least unreasonable dipshit in the room and told them no.
Listen to how a large portion (obviously not all) Israelis talk about Palestinians. They genuinely do not view them as humans and certainly do not value their lives. They speak of the ongoing genocide with gleeful anticipation. People will literally go to the border to taunt Palestinian parents who’ve lost their children or the orphans themselves.
They’re not shooting a 4 year old kid, they’re simply shooting another “worthless” Palestinian. This way of thinking was and is specifically crafted to enable almost every genocide that has ever happened.
I have a friend who is Jewish and since 10+ years she shares jokes telling Palestinians are bombers and robbers, and thar Jews are inventors, or telling me that Palestinians don’t even exist. When I counter argue her she gets pissed and says she accepts no moral lessons from anyone.
That’s sad for me, because I only know 4 Jewish person: 2 were very nice but I lost contact, and the 2 others are so belligerent destroy the good image I have of Jewish people.
On the other side, I know some 20 Palestinians and much more Arabs, and all of them except one never said anything bad against Jewish (but of course they don’t approve when Israel kills people).
When my Jewish friend tell me that Arabs hate Jews and I provide her this statistics she gets crazy mad again.
Okay if I had a friend like that they definitely wouldn’t be my friend for long.
Yes, I deleted her some times, but after some months she apologizes and ask to be friends again and I accept
people will
Those aren’t people. Thinking of them as people is going to make stopping the genocide harder than it has to be, and will cost human lives.
No, they are people. Ignorant, hateful, and actively supporting a genocide, but people nonetheless. My comment was explicitly calling out and criticizing the impulse to dehumanize the “enemy”, real or imagined. Thinking of Zionist Israelis or Nazis as less than human not only perpetuates the mindset that allows these groups to carry out genocide, but at the same time denies how easy it is for average people to fall into such traps.
It leads to thought processes similar to “If you have to be less than human to support a genocide, then obviously what I support can’t be genocide because I am definitely a human.”
And I’m definitely not one of those “oh, we just have to talk to these hateful ignorant perpetuators of genocide because they simply don’t understand why they’re wrong”. I’m of the opinion that violence is absolutely necessary to uphold equality if the situation has been left to get as bad as it has. I’m mostly just railing against the idea that people who support genocide are somehow less human because of that hatred.
They will not stop until they’re killed, they’ll say it themselves if you ask them.
Theres nothing else to them but the killing, and things that support the killing-I looked in my own conversations with them, and asking some refugees-not palestinian refugees, but queer kids they threw away like trash, because of course they fucking do that, if there was anything worth keeping, anything they missed from ‘home’, and it was always only the ancient stuff and the Palestinian stuff. Even I miss things about the places I’m from.
And every fucking one of them knows. They’re so obsessively about the genocide. Its like once the topic comes up, there’s nothing else to them. Because there’s not.
They leave no other out, and I think all the things that make ‘genocide’ bad don’t apply here. Destroying a culture-either you think they’re Jewish, like they claim, and Jewish culture in the entire rest of the world keeps on ticking, or youve talked to one and know they’re disgusting goblin monsters who have no culture. Nothing is lost. killing innocents- but there are no innocents. Every one of them over the age of like 14 is guilty, and irredeemable. just killing shit tons of stuff, usually people. Sometimes not-buffalo for example but this is going to happen anyway, and they’re not going to stop killing, so youre not choosing that killing happens; youre doing the trolley problem. And I’m of the opinion that oppressor lives are worth less than shit-at least shit makes good fertilizer. there’s no point except this time there would be. There are people who need saving. People who have been discarded by the world too many fucking times, and I think letting them keep getting thrown away because we’re too precious about their oppressors is fucking monstrous.
Except it gets worse. Because cultural genocide is, by lemkin’s original definition if not the UN convention; still genocide; taking away the things that enable their culture to exist and reproduce itself would be committing a genocide, but genocide is their entire culture (watch what happens when they’re finished with Palestine), so even completely peacefully stopping the genocide, lets say proving we’re in a simulation, doing a breakout attack, getting root, and disabling PvP flags for the whole middle east, would be a genocide of the kapostanis. I genuinely cannot imagine how they would handle it. Mass suicide? Raiding africa for slaves? It would certainly not be fun to watch.
Given that I don’t know we’re in a simulation, I have no idea how to do a breakout attack on the ten year old computer I’m sitting in front if, and that anything you do to stop the genocide of the Palestinians would completely destroy ‘Israeli’ culture, I’m happy to just see them all dead. They chose to be this. And they’re kind of literally Nazis. If grandpa and video ganes taught me one lesson: killing Nazis is always good, and if history has taught me one lesson, its that we always let too many of them live after, and they fuck everything up for decades.
If any of them don’t want to be genocided, they could just leave, or if you think they’re still human, stop actively committing genocide at any point. But they don’t do that. They get offended if you tell them they could.
Yeah, I agree with everything you just said, but make no mistake, the monsters committing genocide are still human beings. Denying that blurs the line of the purpose of violence done against them and makes it difficult to understand that we must constantly be vigilant against rhetoric and propaganda that advocates for genocide as it is scarily easy for people to fall into patterns of thinking that can justify genocide.
It is irresponsible to say that, because they are actively committing genocide against a population, they are no longer human beings and that is why they deserve violence. It’s an unnecessary extra step that opens the door for the very same genocidal thinking. They are people who have engaged in genocide with no signs of slowing down or stopping, and for that one reason alone, deserve violence until their threat is quashed. That is enough for me; I see no reason or benefit to dehumanize them to justify righteous violence.
I think being biologically human is not morally important to me. You could clone my own muscle tissue(assuming you find any) and I would have no objection to trying it on a bun. Nor to you making a fleshlight and fucking it; you do you.
These things… There’s nothing to them but violence. And that’s important to remember; they can’t be negotiated with, because there’s nothing else they want, nothing else they are. They want to kill rape mutilate and ruin, and they won’t stop til they’re dead. This isnt me being a bigot; they’ll tell you that them fucking selves! They’re really fucking consistent about it! There is no diplomatic option, and no surrender they offer could be trusted, if they’re even still capable of surrender.
Even if you could prove we live in a simulation, perform a breakout attack, and disable PvP flags for the middle east, a mavical perfect solution that instantly stops the bloodshed with no threats or coercion; you would still be comitting genocide on the kapostanis, in the same way exterminating the buffalo was a genocide of the plains tribes of north america. More so, maybe. Their entire culture, and its modes of cultural reproduction (killing and raping and generally thinking of new ways to be awful towards Palestinians, importing settlers to stolen land, etc) would be destroyed. A people would he undone. Until they just decided to fucking do slave raids into Africa or whatever shit. And if they’re so Fucking vile that they do paradox soft tolerance on stopping a Fucking genocide, I don’t think preserving their lives merits much thought.
I think they need to be killed (are we in a simulation? Can you un-pvp an area?), and if we’re going to be doing genocide (by stopping then from doing a genocide), i cabt think of any way to do it but killing them (fwiw, the head of MSF agrees). And I think you’re making it harder for the angry 19 year olds who are going to have to pull the triggers. Those kids don’t need more PTSD than they’re already gonna get from this, y’know?
Plus by insisting they’re human, youre leaving more room for their bad faith bullshit and appropriation of (all) Jewishness, which could get real people killed, and not just by delaying an end to their genocide. People are going to die because of this shit, Human people, all over the world, who are at worst wrong and kind of shitty about this, and at best doing their damdest to stop it, and in every case don’t deserve to fucking die. You’re increasing the potential for splash damage and innocent lives to be lost by calling kapostani’s human.
I’d love if there were a solution other than violence. Violence fucking sucks. Fuck, aside from the human costb there are no green wars, you know? The climate does not need this shit, I really wish they could and would just Fucking Stop.
But talk to one. They’ll tell you themselves; can’t stop won’t stop. So its harm reduction time. And I don’t cry over spilled Nazi. Neither should you.
This is becoming frustrating. We are on the same page that violence is the only answer; I’m only insisting that we understand that the violence has to be done against our fellow humans. It is a tragedy, but one that must be enacted because, as you say, there is no negotiation to be had here.
Denying their humanity weakens the claim of righteousness and, moreso than enabling room for their bad faith bullshit, directly feeds into their bad faith claims of antisemitism as dehumanizing them removes genocide from the argument and all your left with is killing animals/barbarians/evil monsters. I don’t know about you, but that argument is wholly unconvincing to me. You can certainly claim that because they’ve engaged in genocide, that’s why they’ve lost their humanity, but again, it’s an unnecessary mental step that gains us nothing and weakens the argument for deploying violence against them.
For the soldier / PTSD argument, I again disagree. Soldiers kill people. There should be no way around that fact. Dehumanization and making it easier for soldiers to mentally compartmentalize the taking of life is not a good thing and can easily be warped to make soldiers follow any order, regardless of the moral imperative. The soldiers can and should be made to understand that they are committing a traumatic amount of violence and death in order to stop an entire genocide. Violence is a tool and it must be wielded responsibly and with full understanding that the violence is both necessary and just.
Also chill with the faux philosophical ramblings of simulations and video game analogies. I don’t care what you believe outside of this context, but this is a serious issue and talking about “disabl[ing] PvP flags for the middle east” belies that this is the real world (simulated or not) with real, serious consequences. It damages your entire argument and makes you come across like you don’t see the actual human pain and suffering this massacre has caused.
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They aren’t people anymore. If they ever were. They differentiated into Israelis instead.
It’s so unbelievable I don’t believe it.
Would you like to see footage of it? I don’t have the energy but it doesn’t take long to find direct evidence of this happening, numerous times for years. The IDF purposely kills children. In one documented instance they even tied a Palestinian child to the hood of their vehicle as a shield. It sounds comically absurd and evil but this is what we know of.
Yes I rememeber the kid they tied to the car. He didn’t die though. The practice was outlawed by the Israeli Supreme Court. Hamas still using entire cities as human shields unfortunately. I’m not real concerned about the ~25 documented cases of Israeli’s doing it.
It’s the report of snipers just sniping four year old kids that I find unbelievable, and don’t believe.
The IDF has killed more people than Hamas has militants, mostly women and children. Precision targetted aid vehicles multiple times. The bodies of children shot by sniper fire have been examined and confirmed several times even before this escalation. If you are still so deluded by propaganda to say that Hamas is using human shields then there is no hope of discussion. I pray you go to Gaza yourself to witness hell.
There are zero confirmed reports of snipers killing little kids. How does glancing at a body determine if a shot was fired by a sniper rifle or a ricochet stray bullet from a firefight four blocks away? Have you seen what a sniper rifle does to a body? Doesn’t leave much to examine. Doesn’t look much different from a hundred other kinds of traumatic injuries, especially without an autopsy.
There are reports. All kinds of reports. A lot of them are third and fourth hand. Virtually all of them are unverified.
By my dude, building five hundred miles of tunnels in an area only 25 miles wide is literally using the entire area above the tunnels as human shields.
This is a good example of anti semitism. Hamas uses 2.5 million people as a human shield and that’s perfectly fine with you. They get a pass because the news makes you sad. But not Israel. They used twenty five people as human shields and in your mind that’s a war crime. That double standard doesn’t make any sense, unless of course you give Hamas a pass because they are fielding soldiers to kill Jews. Seems kind of like that’s the case. I mean, it’s a very stark and obvious double standard.
There have been actual independent autospies done, I don’t mean a quick glance at a body. And I would build tunnels too if my neighbor had a history of bombing me and seizing my terrority.
Every non-state militant group is claimed to use the civilian population as human shields. This simply isn’t true, it’s rhetoric to justify the bombing because it’s simpler than fighting on the ground. In assymetric warfare a resistance group has no choice but to be active in the place they are stuck at. Even if they were using human shields, it shows the IDF is heartless because they have no concern for any civilian deaths, including Israeli hostages.
It’s like if a bank robber took a hostage and a cop just blasted through them, killing half the bank. That would be horrific and unnecessary murder.
More like if a bank robber took a hostage and the police bulldozed their house, then the rest of the block “just to be sure” and “to send a message”.
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They could, I don’t know, surrender, release the hostages, call for elections, etc., maybe have even slight tolerance to other cultures and try participating in trade? Nobody made Gaza put such short sighted leadership in charge. They don’t have to choose to be isolated theocratic extremists with a singular purpose of ridding the holy land of infidels, labeled by all of the free world as a terrorist organization. There’d be peace in Gaza tomorrow if Hamas gave themselves up today. Even Japan eventually surrendered.
Report of the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967. I didn’t realize so much was documented in one place, if you want to read about what’s been happening, the full pdf is on the page with citations.
you’re sick
There are reports of 500 miles of tunnels and Hamas using people as sheild.
Idf showing 2 tunnels and claiming 500 miles is just as valid as showing 300 deaths and claiming genocide. If you can trust the first then trust the second too.
That Israelis are genocidal maniacs.
There’s one way to stop them. Treat them like we should have treated Nazi high command after the war.
If we do decide to leave some alive, do not let them leave Palestine, ever, under any conditions. Do not let them own property. Do not let them hold management positions. Let them live only on the charity of the Palestinian people, and be allowed to die if it is not forthcoming.
There are zero confirmed reports of snipers killing little kids.
I guess it depends on how you define “little kids”.
14 year old girl?
6 year old girl?
Boy of unknown age?
8 and 15 year old?
https://english.ahram.org.eg/News/513138.aspx
14 year old boy?
As the OP notes, this is nothing new.
9 year old in 2019:
14 year old in 2004:
You have to be joking right now with these links?
First one is a 56 second TikTok video with no credible reporting attached to it. Just the bald statements of someone in social media and some video clips that do not show any gunfire whatsoever. Hardly proves the kid was intentionally sniped. Is this what you accept as credible evidence of something? Also, like, Al Jazeera? Qatari state media with no credibility when it comes to Gaza. They followed none of the usual standards of journalistic integrity. Very clear state sponsored agenda. Obviously they are exaggerating and serving up the most scandalous, unverified “reports” and portraying them as fact. Next.
Second link, another Al Jazeera, this one is a third hand report that does not have anything to do with your claim that Israel is sniping kids. Even giving you an assumption that every fact alleged is true, at best it shows that the IDF shot a car that happened to have a kid in it. Obviously there are cars all over the place in Gaza, and so the IDF clearly isn’t just going in and lighting up any car that they see. Perhaps this car was driving toward the tank that shot it? It is not proof that Israel knowingly targeting a kid, and it has nothing to do with snipers.
Third link, MEMo this time, also Qatari state media, a 15 second clip with a bald allegation that the kid’s hand got shot by a sniper. Nothing in this link doesn’t prove that the claim isn’t entirely made up by Qatari State media and slapped onto a 15 second clip of a kid with a blurred out hand. You really accept that as proof that the IDF intentionally sniped this kid? How can the kid or the doctor or anyone seeing this know it was sniper fire and not a ricochet, or a piece of shrapnel and not even a bullet?
Fourth link, now jumping over to Egyptian state media. Still liars but with different motives. At least in this one they concede the kid was trespassing in a secured military area. The description doesn’t sound like sniper fire though, sounds like automatic rifles. That’s a far stretch from lining up right on a kid and blasting for no reason.
Fifth one, sounds legit even after sorting through the the extra innuendo and looking at the reported facts. Should be investigated. The tenor of your allegation is that Israeli snipers are literally just out plinking kids. This kid was on top of a building near a firefight and an active special forces raid, watching it go down. Maybe they thought he had a weapon or was acting as a spotter. If the special forces, trained sniper plinked a kid without following rules of engagement, the sniper should spend the rest of their life in a military prison. But I think Netanyahu is like Trump, promotes people who would let this guy off, like that sniper Trump pardoned
That’s all the time I have right now.
Dude they post this shit on their own social media accounts, individually and officially. Monsters exist.
Even South Africa hasn’t made that claim to the ICJ because of how bullshit it is. Twitter isn’t real life.
Dude. Ive seen it? Like with my eyes while my roommate was browsing his feed? And he’s not even a super geopolitics kinda guy.
Ive read their official shit. How many sources from their own government, official spokespeople, generals, and cabinet level staff, saying ‘we are doing a genocide, our strategy is warcrimes x y and z’ would it take to convince you? Give me a number, and I’ll provide links.
Then why do they all post videos of them doing kitschy shit while shooting children on all their social media feeds?
Do you admit that if it was real, the correct course of action would be to turn every inch of ground the Palestinians don’t want preserved to fucking glass, and kill any scum that run for the border? To just bomb until nothing moves, then send in crews to clean up anything hiding underground?
That if it was real, and they felt like they were losing, one could expect they would shift resources away from defense to try and finish the extermination, and feel noble about it?
I saw this article and thought of this conversation https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-palestinian-children-killed-idf-israel-war
Doctors perform CPR on child with gunshot wound to the head(GRAPHIC WARNING)
Yeah some of the accounts in these link/articles are the same accounts of the ones linked above by Jordan. You can’t tell without taking notes if you’re reading 10 accounts of 10 kids or like in this thread 10 accounts of four or five kids, and they all just cite to each other.
The video you linked is sourced entirely from Al Jazeera reports of “reports.” Same self interested reports that all say no Hamas fighters have ever been killed, no buildings have tunnels under them, nobody fired any rockets from the area, and all dead kids were sniped in cold blood. An an obviously incredible, broken record.
Everyone hates Israel https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/05/six-months-war-gaza-israel-benjamin-netanyahu-palestinians-hamas
Death to anyone who supports the genocide state
I’d like to know who’s downvoting this, besides the state trolls
There’s a small but angry and vocal contingent of Israel supporters around here. The other day one got mad at me because I said the IDF’s report of killing 200 terrorists in the hospital in Gaza was bullshit and it was bullshit specifically because it came from the IDF and you can’t trust a word they say.
I was in a gas station around UNC Chapel Hill of all places standing in line behind a couple younger guys who were saying insane things about how Palestine’s not a real state, they’re just migrant squatters and seemed to mock anyone hurt or killed that opposed Israel. They reminded me of ‘Murican’s talking about how strong and right America is, but from the Jewish perspective with Israel in its stead.
It’s hard to describe how sickening it was to hear. And they’re like, 20.
I take issue with something you said-
They reminded me of ‘Murican’s talking about how strong and right America is, but from the Jewish perspective with Israel in its stead.
I am Jewish. I do not have that perspective. A large number of Jews do not have that perspective and do not support Israel or its genocide. Many of us also advocate for Palestinian independence and an end to apartheid.
Please don’t take it as all Jews just as American morons don’t represent all Americans. My apology, I thought that was obvious.
No worries, I just wanted to clarify just in case.
Hi, thanks for your voice.
I hope that you never get punished/harmed emotionally or physically for people who can’t differentiate you from others.
I am actually interested in talking to nice Jewish people.
If you have a way to communicate in anonymous form (like via simplex chat, please send me your contact).
Or make a Lemmy instance for jewishforpeace!
Funny is that illegal Jewish immigrants into Palestina on 1930s had to be stopped by Brits, and jewish reacted by bombing British embassy and sinking British ships (read about Irgun and Stern group terrorist attacks).
Nothing about this is funny or a subject for mockery. At least you can take comfort in knowing that twenty years olds basically don’t know shit about anything let alone foreign policy let alone hypermodern points of international law. Only Facebook and Sarah Palins and Donald Trumps give these know nothings the validation to share their dumbass thoughts out loud. It’s by design and it’s so dangerous. Any one of them can buy a blue check mark and a following.
Just screw them. As long as people can read it’s that’s what matters.
Though I’m always a bit conflicted about upvote/ liking. I usually upvote something that, I like. But I don’t like this, I truly hate reading this kind of stuff. It’s horrifying and I wish it would stop.
I upvote for visibility. The more awareness, the more pressure from public opinion.
Same. Upvote if I think it’s important for others to see.
And won’t do a damn thing. Just how Facebook likes are not stopping Russia’s invasion upvoting/downvoting will have exactly zero effect on this conflict as well. On one side Israel will ensure this time that this never happens again, on the other only acceptable outcome for Palestine is death of every Israeli, which is not happening.
World will criticize. Israel will win and there will be calm for some years before Hamas goes for the blood again and people call Israel genocidal nation once again. It’s a frighteningly short cycle and people keep forgetting it every time.
The The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 in Zionist thought and the displacement of Palestinians since the 1920s culminated into a full-fledged ethnic cleansing campaign in 1948. Plan Dalet with Details of Plan C (May 1946) and Plan D (March 1948) Partition and later the Two-State Solution have been wielded by Israel to covet and annex as much Palestinian land as possible with the least amount of Palestinians.
Before 1948, Palestinian Leadership repeatedly advocated for a Unitary Binational State for decades: Palestinian Arab Congress advocating for Unified State 1928, Arab Higher Committee advocating for Unified State 1937, Arab League advocating for Unified State 1948
After the founding of Israel, the Two-State Solutions were utilized to further annex the Palestinian Occupied Territories and enact military control over Palestinians while denying them human and civil rights. Despite this, both Fatah and later Hamas have accepted a Two-State Solution on the 1967 borders, with the two most important factors being the Right of Return of Palestinian refugees and an end to the permanent occupation. This is apartheid.
Oslo Accords MEE, NYT, Haaretz, AJ
Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.
What Is Hamas? - Council on Foreign Relations
What Does Hamas Actually Want? - NY Mag
Hamas Election - Snopes
Hamas 1988 Charter and Revised 2017 Charter
The 1988 Charter, which is certainly unreasonable in its fundamentalism with Sharia Law and is antisemitic, does not call for the extermination of all Jewish People. The 2017 Revised charter accepts a Two-State Solution of the 1967 Borders. Check Article 7 and 13 of the 1988 Charter to see yourself, compare it to Article 20 and 24-26 in the revised charter
Goddamn you don’t ever shush up, do you? Just loud and wrong.
This stopped being a war and started being a genocide at some point, but the government and media just won’t say it and I’m tired of it.
Yeah and that point was in 1948.
Can’t we all just… Smoke a bong? 🤷🏻♂️
We are. Tell that to these Israeli fuckers. The most moral army in the world probably has more objections to that than killing children all around for fun, tho.
Decades of Western impunity, and an entire political and media infrastructure that has enabled Israel’s crimes against humanity, have led to Israel disassociating itself from a world where actions have consequences, or where the truth of what it says matters. And the events of the past 48 hours—including the bombing of an Iranian embassy and the brazen killing of seven aid workers in Gaza—have proved that Israel seemingly feels entitled to plunder and sow death and destruction as it pleases.
It’s obvious why israel is becoming more and more arrogant in their crimes; Biden is always giving them the green light. And they know it by now. They have tested again and again how far they can go and now know there are literally no limits for what Biden will support.
Blowing up all hospitals. Literally starving all Palestinians to death like a Nazi concentration camp. Nothing goes to far for Genocide Joe.
That’s right, just Biden. No previous president was ever in full support of Israel.
Indeed every single previous American president would have already stopped israeli by now. Genocide Joe is by far biggest Zionist president in American history
There were three times in the past that israel violated human rights so hard that American presidents threatened arms embargoes or threatened to cut off israeli loan guarantees. The most recent one is George Bush.
Although Israel and its supporters went into a frenzy, with one Israeli cabinet minister calling the U.S. president an “antisemite” and a “liar,” Bush Sr. prevailed. On Oct. 2, 1991, the U.S. Senate formally acceded to Bush’s request for a 120-day postponement. Furthermore, because of Shamir’s determination to expand settlements, the loans were not released until well beyond the postponement period, after the election of a more moderate Israeli government led by Yitzhak Rabin.
When I spoke to him in 2003, Baker told me, “We said to Rabin, ‘we’ll release the $10 billion if you agree to substantially restrict settlement activity,’ and he did.”
In these cases israel did far less human rights violation than the full scale Genocide they are committing right now. Genocide Joe is exceptional in his support to let israel kill every single Palestinian.
every single previous American president would have already stopped israeli by now
Fine, every single president except Trump. Happy now?
No. I don’t have any obvious counter-evidence I’m aware of, but I don’t bare the burden of proof. You need to show evidence that every single other president would have done as you say. It’s a very big claim that requires a lot of evidence, and frankly I don’t believe it’s true.
Maybe not every president since as you say that requires a lot of evidence and is likely unprovable, but I firmly believe that the majority would’ve stopped Israel by now. I mean, hell, even objectively horrible people like George Bush and Regan did it. Hell, even Biden did it in 2021. What I want to say is: Biden letting Israel rampage like this is the exception, not the norm. For evidence, I think the fact that Israel has needed to exercise at least a modicum of restraint and not commit actual genocide until now is enough.
I firmly believe
Without evidence
not commit actual genocide
Israel is currently in the process of committing an actual genocide. I think that’s why the Biden administration is holding an investigation; because if they can publish a finding that Israel is using American weapons they can then withhold aid without anyone being able to make legal trouble. Because of the way our treaties work, Biden is compelled to supply aid to Israel until he’s legally forbidden from doing so. In the meantime, there’s reports that he’s begun using back-door beurocratic BS to slow aid down as much as he’s legally able to.
Now maybe all of that is baseless rumors being spread by braindead Biden cheerleaders, but it’s also entirely possible that it’s true. You have no basis for your assertion that Biden is even doing worse than average, so stop trying to act like it’s an established fact.
TLDR: your argument is uncogent.
As much of a Moron as Trump is, even he is starting to turn around now
“You have to finish up your war … You gotta get it done. And I am sure you will do that. And we gotta get to peace, we can’t have this going on. And I will say, Israel has to be very careful, because you’re losing a lot of the world, you’re losing a lot of support,” he told the newspaper.
When asked how he would have countered a rise in anti-Semitism that followed the Hamas attacks and Israel’s response, Mr Trump appeared to blame the images of Israeli bombings coming out of Gaza.
“Well, that’s because you fought back,” he said. “And I think Israel made a very big mistake. I wanted to call [Israel] and say don’t do it. These photos and shots. I mean, moving shots of bombs being dropped into buildings in Gaza. And I said, Oh, that’s a terrible portrait. It’s a very bad picture for the world. The world is seeing this … every night, I would watch buildings pour down on people.”
When even Donald Trump turns with the winds, it’s looking like Biden literally can’t do worse
Yes the orange man will definitely not say anything to get elected, followed by bombing Gaza back to the Stone age.
Who knows. Orange Man promised to be strong against Russia and then 180’d the entire Republican party into being Putins lap dog. Trump will go wherever the wind blows and whomever gives him a nice wad of cash.
The only thing we know is that Nikki Haley and Biden both received 1.5Million dollars from AIPAC for this election, and Trump just 100k. So israel certainly doesn’t seem to prefer Trump over Biden.
Oh wow, you actually believe that…
Oh wow I linked three examples and you actually didn’t read any of them.
You believe this because of propaganda. Enjoy your brain rot.
