Reversal of smoking ban criticised as ā€˜shamefulā€™ for lacking evidence

New Zealand is repealing the worldā€™s first smoking ban passed under former prime minister Jacinda Ardenā€™s government to pave the way for a smoke-free generation amid backlash from researchers and campaigners over its risk to Indigenous people.

The new coalition government led by prime minister Christopher Luxon confirmed the repeal will happen on Tuesday, delivering on one of the actions of his coalitionā€™s ambitious 100-day plan.

The government repeal will be put before parliament as a matter of urgency, enabling it to scrap the law without seeking public comment, in line with previously announced plans.

  • Dasus@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    ā€œThey conclude that itā€™s very clear that all smoke exposure is harmful. But they never studied people who only get exposed outdoors. Iā€™m betting smoke magically becomes non-harmful when there arenā€™t walls around you, despite them clearly concluding ALL smoke is harmful. Also, I donā€™t need to provide any evidence for my ridiculously asinine and illogical premise, itā€™s enough that I can recognise that this specific instance wasnā€™t studied by itself, so it can mean whatever I want it to, despite realityā€

    Youā€™re honestly like one of those Flat Earth nuts whoā€™s trying to convince us that NASA is guarding the icewall at the end of the Earth. ā€œBut like, can you agree with me that no-oneā€™s ever seen the actual edge of the Earth?ā€

    No, I really really canā€™t, because youā€™re crazy. :D

    First, there are several studies looking into the effects of ā€œoutdoor smokingā€. We understand very well how aerosols work indoors and outdoors, so it really doesnā€™t matter where you are during the exposure, it matters how much you are exposed to.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22870289/

    https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e007554

    Thereā€™s literally almost a century of data on this. Youā€™re like an antivaxxer. :D ā€œNooo, we havenā€™t actually established that smoke exposure is always harmful, and I donā€™t need to provide evidence that it isnā€™t.ā€

    We have established with insanely high certainty that all smoke exposure is harmful.

    Itā€™s like if you tried arguing that we donā€™t know for certain that asbestos exposure is harmful, because you say we havenā€™t actually looked at asbestos exposure outdoors. :DD

    • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      Itā€™s kind of funny how you obviously take the time to come up with the worst insults you can think of and then throw them at me even when they donā€™t make sense. Try ā€œMAGAā€ next.

      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22870289/

      Study shows outdoor particulate matter in smoking areas is almost the same level as indoor areas where smoking is banned (43.64 Āµg/m3 vs 36.90 Āµg/m3, respectively).

      https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e007554

      Even the conclusion here supports what Iā€™m saying. Almost half of the surveyed smokers report smoking outside, yet only 24% of nonsmokers report being exposed to smoke at all outdoors. Also, this study doesnā€™t deal with the concentration.

      Results Smokers reported smoking outdoors most in bars and restaurants (54.8%), followed by outdoor places at work (46.8%). According to non-smokers, outdoor SHS exposure was highest at home (42.5%) and in bars and restaurants (33.5%).

      You have to understand that there is a huge anti-smoking bias in top-level discussions. Younger generations just consider smoking gross. But the data itself doesnā€™t lie. Look beyond the conclusions and look at the actual data.

      • Dasus@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        You have to understand that there is a huge anti-smoking bias in top-level discussions.

        I canā€™t get over how hilarious you saying this is.

        Like, quite literally, youā€™re a textbook case of trying to copy 1950ā€™s tobacco company rhetoric.

        So probably youā€™re doing it on accident, because youā€™ve actually bought into it, which is hilarious.

        So hereā€™s something to enlighten you on the subject

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3490543/

        Inventing Conflicts of Interest: A History of Tobacco Industry Tactics

        Abstract

        Confronted by compelling peer-reviewed scientific evidence of the harms of smoking, the tobacco industry, beginning in the 1950s, used sophisticated public relations approaches to undermine and distort the emerging science.

        The industry campaign worked to create a scientific controversy through a program that depended on the creation of industryā€“academic conflicts of interest. This strategy of producing scientific uncertainty undercut public health efforts and regulatory interventions designed to reduce the harms of smoking.

        A number of industries have subsequently followed this approach to disrupting normative science. Claims of scientific uncertainty and lack of proof also lead to the assertion of individual responsibility for industrially produced health risks.

        ANY SYSTEMATIC INVESTIGATION of the modern relationship of medicine and science to industry must consider what has become the epiphenomenal case of the tobacco industry as it confronted new medical knowledge about the risk of cigarette smoking in the mid-20th century. This, of course, is not to argue that the approach and strategy undertaken by big tobacco are necessarily typical of conventional industryā€“science relationships. But the steps the industry took as it fashioned a new relationship with the scientific enterprise have become a powerful and influential model for the exertion of commercial interests within science and medicine since that timeā€¦

        Well, ā€œrwad it yourselfā€, no point in me pastingthe whole thing.

      • Dasus@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        ā€œWorst insultsā€? :D

        Thanks for letting me know youā€™re offended, those are apt descriptors, not attempts at insults. I could show you some actual insults, but thatā€™d be rude and against the rules.

        There is no safe level of exposure to secondhand smoke. Thatā€™s it.

        You can equivocate all you want that ā€œthere isnā€™t enough evidenceā€, but donā€™t be surprised when people laugh at you, since thatā€™s exactly the thing the tobacco companies have been trying to repeat for almost a century. ā€œNoo, the evidence isnā€™t in yet!ā€ Yes, it is.

        yet only 24% of nonsmokers report being exposed to smoke at all outdoors

        Ah yes, asking people ā€œwere you bothered by smokeā€ definitely proves that they werenā€™t exposed to any smoke at all. Itā€™s not like peopleā€™s subjective experiences are worse than objective science.

        All smoke-exposure is harmful. When you prove there is a level of smoke exposure thatā€™s safe, then you have an argument. Before that, you donā€™t. You simply do not. Youā€™re exactly like a Flat Earther, who refuses to believe the evidence in favour of some contrived bullshit that doesnā€™t even support the facts they think it does.

        ā€œLook at the actual data.ā€

        Itā€™s honestly hilarious how you keep stomping your foot, crying ā€œno no no no no muh dataā€, but you donā€™t even have any, and then you pretend like some data on reported experiences about the levels of smoke they were exposed to proves that smoke exposure isnā€™t harmful?

        My stomach is hurting Iā€™m laughing so much :DDD

        • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          You can equivocate all you want that ā€œthere isnā€™t enough evidenceā€, but donā€™t be surprised when people laugh at you

          The laughter of idiots is equivalent to the approval of thinking people. So, thank you.

          Now that youā€™re arguing against the concept of data, where do we go from here? I mean if you fundamentally disagree with reality, wellā€¦dunno what to tell you dude. The data ainā€™t saying what you want it to. That sucks. But it is what it is.

          • Dasus@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Again, there is no safe level of exposure to smoke.

            There is no level of smoke exposure that is safe.

            No level of exposure to smoke is safe. Outdoors or indoors.

            That has been proved, objectively, for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times.

            What you donā€™t see is that Iā€™ve been asking ā€œwhat is your argumentā€ for several comments, but you simply do not have one. Youā€™re trying to equivocate that ā€œb-bb-but there are no studies which studied only outdoors exposure and that is actually safe because thereā€™s no evidence to prove that it isnā€™tā€, when we do have evidence proving that, since we have evidence that all smoke exposure is harmful. ā€œJust look at the data.ā€

            I could start pasting dozens of studies which have been done on this over almost a century, but youā€™re the one making the argument (or rather, not-making an argument, since you donā€™t actually have one, youā€™re just saying ā€œlol look thereā€™s no specific outdoors studies thus Iā€™m right in my non-argumentā€), so the burden of proof is on you.

            The irony in you saying ā€œthe conclusions arenā€™t supported by the dataā€, when they clearly show why it is, and then you being unable to actually explain why you think it isnā€™tā€¦ is again, h-i-l-a-r-i-o-u-s.

            Try to make an argument instead of this teenagey pseudointellectual equivocating and wannabe deep quotes. :D

            Why does subjective reports about peopleā€™s perceived level of smoke exposure matter in this conversation? Why does it invalidate the data that shows all smoke exposure is harmful?

            • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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              9 months ago

              That has been proved, objectively

              Yet you canā€™t find a study showing it?

              Itā€™s reasonable to assume that a level of smoke particulate matter equal to that of areas in which there is no smoking is nonharmful. Right? Maybe a higher level is still not harmful but thereā€™s no data so we donā€™t know.

              My theory is that occasional outdoor smoke exposes you to particulate matter at such low concentrations, itā€™s indistinguishable from regular daily fluctuations when not exposed to smoke. Just a theory, because no real data, but I think itā€™s a reasonable one. The one study you linked about particulate matter in outdoor areas seems to support it.

              Also

              Why does subjective reports about peopleā€™s perceived level of smoke exposure matter in this conversation?

              Youā€™re the one who linked the study, dude, I just read it.

              • Dasus@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                The burden of proof is on you.

                Youā€™re the one screeching against established science. Youā€™re the one saying that ā€œthe data doesnā€™t support the conclusionsā€ while refusing to actually even make an argument.

                ā€œMy theoryā€

                You donā€™t seem to understand what the word means. Thatā€™s a hypothesis, and one not supported by any science, despite you saying that the conclusions of a peer-reviewed study isnā€™t supported by the data they have, that the data in fact supports your notion, but you still canā€™t seem to show how or why?

                So your argument is ā€œif youā€™re not exposed to smoke, then youā€™re not harmed by itā€? Wow. What a great argument. Unfortunately, when youā€™re exposed to smoke, no matter the amount, it is harmful. This has been proven time and time and time again, but despite you childishly arguing against it, you havenā€™t even tried looking if thereā€™s data available on it, because you know of course there is and it all proves you wrong.

                The burden of proof is on you. Youā€™re simply unable to produce any supporting evidence for any of your anti-vaxxer, flat-earth level garbage, instead preferring to write vague pseudointellectual garbage. :D

                https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2974716/

                #No level of smoking or exposure to secondhand smoke [SHS] is safe. Even at the lowest detectable levels of exposure, we could detect changes in gene expression within the cells lining the airways

                https://news.ufl.edu/2023/09/secondhand-smoke-exposure/

                https://tobaccoatlas.org/challenges/secondhand-smoke/

                #It is widely recognized through scientific evidence that there is no safe level of exposure to SHS

                ā€œWidely recognised.ā€

                Almost as if thatā€™s what the evidence points towards and your pathetic little ā€œb-b-b-b-but what about if youā€™re only outdoors and youā€™re 100 meters upwind from the closest smoker so then youā€™re not exposed to smoke at all so then itā€™s safe so there is actually a safe level of second hand smoke exposure which is literally to not be exposed at all and thatā€™s my mighty smart argument that Iā€™m now making and the fact that thereā€™s a literal library full of studies which prove that there is no safe level of second hand smoke is completely irrelevant as Iā€™m not even gonna look at it Iā€™m just gonna pretend like I won the argument I didnā€™t even actually manage to makeā€

                SEe why Iā€™m entertained? D:DD

                • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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                  9 months ago

                  you still canā€™t seem to show how or why?

                  Thatā€™s a problem with your comprehension, not with my explanation.

                  Run spell check please.

                  • Dasus@lemmy.world
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                    9 months ago

                    ā€¦ deep sigh

                    So in your previous comment you ask ā€œbut you canā€™t find evidence for it?ā€ after Iā€™ve explained that you need to find the evidence, because the burden of proof is on you because youā€™re the one trying to argue against scientific consensus.

                    Despite the burden of proof being on you, not me, I show you studies that show how widely recognised it is that there is no safe level of SHS exposure.

                    You refuse to acknowledge it.

                    So tell me, how exactly are you different from a Flat Earther or an Anti-vaxxer? Because you canā€™t seem to make an argument of any sort, youā€™re just grasping at something like ā€œno but see the measurements of exposure from an outdoor smoking area were almost as low asā€¦ā€ which isnā€™t an argument. Itā€™s an observation, that in no way disproves that all SHS is harmful.

                    What arenā€™t you getting? Why are you ignoring when I show you proof? What is your argument? Oh you donā€™t have any so you end up with these childish games like pretending you didnā€™t see anything I just wrote and linked and are unable to Google ā€œis second hand smoke dangerousā€ yourself?

                    Make. An. Argument. Please?

                    But you wonā€™t.