Itās one thing to have differing views, but Iāve seen enough attempted reddit migrations to be relieved that the popular communities in the fediverse so far havenāt been about crazy racist stuff or other extreme right bullshit.
I am also glad that Iām getting away from redditās general political shitposting, which was more left leaning. You couldnāt have any proper discourse on there, and even I with my generally more left leaning views recognized that.
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thats weird. i never get called a fascist, and nobody i know gets called fascists, and iāve never had to worry about other people calling me a fascist when i disagree with them. huhā¦
I was called a fascist on Reddit for saying that punching nazis is a victimless crime, because punching people, merely because they want to eradicate other people, is a well-known staple of fascism.
Yeah but if everyone slightly right of center gets labeled a nazi then you can just call anyone you donāt like a nazi and you can do whatever you want to them. Thatās a problem.
I get called a fascist nazi all the time merely for agreeing with the 1st amendment of the USA which guarantees the right to free speech. If simply supporting the right to freely speak means you get called nazi/fascist, then Iād be wary of anyone who wasnāt accused of such.
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iāll drop the tone. iāve looked at your other comments, have a general clue about what youāre about. iāll just say this: there are specific patterns of behavior and ideas which are either attributed to or linked to the Nazi Party, or more generally to fascist ideologies, which have, throughout history, led to oppressive regimes. when people see these patterns or ideas expressed, there is a tendency on the left to reject these ideas because of that association, because they have proved to be potent tools for the spread of fascism, and encourage the dehumanization of minority groups.
transphobia, and specifically appeals to the pedophilic nature of queer people? this is unambiguously Nazi shit. trans people were the some of the very first people the naziās actually threw into concentration camps in nazi germany. this process included the burning of medical literature describing the proper treatment of transgender people. it also included the denial of an explicit description of the gender spectrum, as observed by medical professionals of the time. so if you are dismissive of or make a political issue out of trans identity, call queer people groomers, any of that bullshit, even if you are ānot a naziā, many of the information sources publishing anti-trans rhetoric today have explicit ties to real neo-nazi organizations, or are politically aligned with movements calling for the āeradicationā of āāātransgenderismāāā.
to anybody with an education on the historical circumstances of Nazi Germany, this exact rhetoric and the modern political movement against trans people, is unambiguously mirrored by the actions of modern republican politicians, including legislating restrictions against cross-dressing (happened in nazi germany), restricting transgender medical care (happened in nazi germany), and revoking the ability for trans people to be recognized legally as trans (happened in nazi germany). people who are queer or trans both do not necessarily want to be confronted with this rhetoric wherever they go online, as it can be extremely distressing seeing people parroting literal nazi talking points in the modern era, and do not want that kind of rhetoric to spread, because it was nazi propaganda that lead to the execution of human beings.
while theoretically somebody might āmisuseā this label, call somebody a transphobe or a nazi when they arenāt explicitly talking about this stuff, you may be able to follow the logic from here. if transphobia, questioning the validity of transgender identity, calling for the restriction of transgender medical care, restricting access to books about queer people, if this has explicit links to nazi ideology and activity, what do you call people that want to open up a space for these people to spread their beliefs? what do you call people who accommodate or legitimize these beliefs which have led to the genocide of people groups? well, for a lot of people, if you accommodate the people who accommodate the fascists, that really isnāt that different from letting the fascists run about.
maybe you donāt think of yourself as somebody who does that. maybe you really do think of yourself as a moderate who wants productive discourse, and believes that if everybody just talked to each other, all these political divisions would be easier for us to solve. for the people who would be impacted by the threat of violence behind these beliefs, that isnāt so easy. for the people who see the striking similarity between the modern transgender panic and the genocidal escalation of yesteryear, it isnāt worth the risk to allow in the would be monsters, willing to execute the people who are not like them, even if that means that some reasonable people are caught in the crossfire. hopefully that gives you at least some insight into why productive dialogue isnāt a very convincing argument on this side of the fence. youāve called yourself a moderate in other posts. tell me, what is the moderate position between genocide and tolerance? between eradication and acceptance? if youāre moderate about that shit? well, that just sounds like bigotry to me.
i would encourage you, if you arenāt just a nazi concern troll, to look into the Institut fur Sexualwissenschaft, and the history behind the persecution of transgender and gay people in nazi germany, and try to conceive of why people believe that they are right in rejecting those who display sympathy towards the right wing of the United States, especially in light of their modern retreading of old bigotry. i would love to give people the benefit of the doubt, and assume that they are truly just advocates for free speech, concerned about authoritarian censorship, all that jazz, but the content of what opinions people like you are defending the right to have are historically ruinous for minority groups, a harbinger of a horrifically violent regime which killed countless people, and burned the records of what had been learned about their humanity.
Dudeā¦ almost every comment youāve made has been to insult someone or put them down or pick a fight with someone. Are you okay?
I donāt believe Iāve insulted anyone but if you think I have could you point to an example? Iām expressing my opinion (which certainly appears unpopular) and if that is seen as insulting or fighty then I donāt know what to tell you. Iām going to keep expressing my opinion.
Thereās a Lemmy instance perfect for you then: exploding-heads.
We are more than welcome to decide what behavior is and isnāt appropriate in our own community. If you donāt like it, then you donāt have to be here. You arenāt entitled to our friendship.
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Discourse canāt exist when one party believes the other party has no right to exist
Yes exactly. Both sides need to take a long look in the mirror and stop projecting their self hatred on the other side.
If me and you are having a discussion, but the topic is the fact that I want to kill you, how long will it take before you stop wanting to talk to me?
āBut itās just words!ā
Well, we know thatās not true, so how long would it take before you stopped wanting to be around me?
Oh, also I promote pediphelia. Just as a little fun thing. Just the casual story of raping kids.
I get the appeal. I do. I 1000% do. I get it. But also fuck Nazis. I donāt want to be around them. Iām gay, so they donāt want to be around me. Fuck pedophiles. I donāt want to be around them. So if a site is filled with Nazis and pedophiles, Iām gonna go to a different site. Now you have an echo chamber of Nazis and pedophiles. The thing you wanted to avoid. But youāre stuck with only talking to Nazis and pedophiles.
Meanwhile the bubble without Nazis is a really large bubble encompassing everything except Nazis and pedophiles.
Which hardly looks like a bubble.
Iām not advocating for unchallenged platforms for nazis. What Iām concerned about is the dangerous broadening of the term ānaziā to include any viewpoint differing from oneās own. Neither you nor I hold all the answers. However, Iām not the one categorizing wide-ranging groups as ānazisā to conveniently dismiss dissenting views, while complacently considering myself superior to all those being arbitrarily mislabeled as ānazisā. It SERIOUSLY weakens your entire argument when you throw that word around so carelessly.
Well we donāt use it for just anyone who has any different opinion. So the problem right there is solved. We do use it frequently. But thatās when we see thing like homo/transphobia(Nazis hated queer people), antisemitism(another group Nazis hated), racism(also Nazis), and sexism(once again, Nazis). There seems to be a pretty fucking large overlap of what modern day Republicans preach and what the Nazis preached. Including as of lately āeradicating transgendernessā and āerasing communities.ā As well as the amount of terrorist attacks that ha e actively been encouraged.
So if you would prefer we could just call everyone bigot, since that includes them all and not everyone personally considers themselves a Nazi, but I hardly see the difference between a Nazi, the KKK, Proud Boys, 3%ers, etc, when they all preach the exact same stuff. At that point youāre not arguing anything except semantics. Itās like the whole ārace realismā thing. Itās racism, but more palatable to racists who think the name racist is mean, but not the mentality.
I guess another way to look at it is as people keep bringing up, but thereās a German saying about this. If you have a table with 9 people and 1 Nazi, you have 10 Nazis.
This also doesnāt change the actual argument being made, which is about a forum that is open. In which case, you do get Nazis. Like not even what we mean when we call Nazis as Nazis, but people who call themselves Nazis. We have seen that over and over and over. You get Nazis, and you get pedophiles. Then everyone else starts to leave and you are stuck with Nazis and pedophiles.
So once again, I get the mentality behind it. In a lot of ways I would love a site like that. But itās also a little different for those of us that are having people call for our deaths on a regular basis.
Youāve already been given a suggestion for just that kind of instance. If you want to see that kind of content, thereās a spot for that.
Or are you just upset that there are places who donāt welcome those kinds of dumbfuck takes? Is it that you want to see the content for yourself, or that you want to make the content and force everyone to see it?
Either way, this instance isnāt the place for you. Exploding heads is. Go there, be happy.
The issue I have with this overzealousness to censor is that the people who are most eager to censor others, are often the most bigoted, hateful, and misinformed. The suggestion of going to exploding-heads is just dishonest. They are undeniably right-wing. What I wish for is an open platform where left and right can speak freely to each other in polite discourse, not simply just be exposed to whatever dogshit takes some far right people post. going to exploding-heads would then limit my ability to see other positions.
Are you suggesting that I should have an account on each fediverse instance, just to get all of the content? If so, then what the actual fuck is the point of federation in the first place?
Oh, I see. Youāre delusional. You honestly think I should be having āpolite discourseā with people who either want me dead, or are ok with voting for people who want me dead.
Because, see, whatās left? What makes a Republican want to claim to be a Republican other than the culture war bullshit? What do they stand for? They havenāt stood for āfiscal responsibilityā or āsmall governmentā since W was in office. The straight-up write things like āWe stand against teaching critical thinking in schoolsā (see: Texas GOP party platform) into their guiding documents. And you think theyāre going to have a civil conversation? You think I owe them a civil conversation?
Every server we allow those people on freely will become exploding heads or 4 chan. Go look at r/politicalcompassmemes if you need an example. I donāt know how many times we have to watch it happen before you get the picture, or maybe this is your first ever internet community experience. But youāre wrong. Their bad-faith rhetoric, carefully-stated death threats, and direct personal attacks will drive everyone who isnāt one of them away, leaving only Nazis. If the admins call them out and ban them for that stuff, theyāll end up banning all of them and weāll be having this same conversation. If the admins allow their speech, but donāt allow us to say āFuck off, weeb, nobody likes youā without censure, then guess who gets to control the ādiscourseā? And if the admins donāt ban anyone for it, weāll become Voat. Since only the slimiest members of humanity can tolerate that vibe for long, guess who ends up owning the server by default?
You wanna see that shit, you enjoy being called slurs and told to go kys, you are free to seek out the communities who will do that for you. But fuck all the way off with telling me I must put up with it, too.
Oh, I can block them? No I fucking canāt. I blocked you days ago, and your shit still shows up in my notifications. So, again, fuck off. If I have to listen to whatever dumb shit spills out of your brain, against my will, then you get to listen to my toxicity.
ā¦youā¦ honestly thoughtā¦ the fediverseā¦ was supposed to be a centralized content aggregatorā¦?
Whatā¦ uh, so, whatā¦ what do you think the fediverse is?
have youā¦ talked with them? I try to speak with everyone and pretty much none of them actually want me dead. If you want to talk about voting criminals into power, look at the democrat party, who legit rigged the 2020 election to vote a known pedophile rapist and warmonger into power. a guy who literally pushed racist and homophobic policy. a guy who literally is fighting to repeal racial equality. a guy who literally openly said heād deny me healthcare. should we then shut down conversation with every democrat voter? why are you so eager to shut down conversation? do you not realize that creates echochambers, which increases the extremism and polarization?
If you actually spoke to them and tried to understand where theyāre coming from, maybe youād learn that :) instead you choose to shut down conversation, ban them, censor them, any chance you get. So of course you donāt understand why they hold the views and say the things they do! you never listened to what they had to say!
Regardless of how offended you might feel or say you are, the reality is that there are actually decent points to be made by people in both major political parties; as well as the varying 3rd parties. Personally, I found my own view on things that matches neither cleanly, so whereās that put me? should I just be on the side of censoring both democrats and republicans? or are you suggesting that anyone that holds any view other than your specific view should be censored and banned? is anything other than openly accepting and celebrating human sacrifice something that should be silenced, censored, and banned? serious question. is going against that ābeing hateful and intolerantā? where is your line? how about pedophilia? are people against pedophilia just āhateful bigots who are intolerant and mean for no real reasonā? where is your line?
The reality is that thereās a lot of, and growing, opposition to progressive ideology because it is causing harm to real people. Surely, if something is causing harm, we should try to stop that harm? IMO the proper thing to do is to try and base our views on science (not feelings), and to try and heal and help as many people as possible reach their potential, while also avoiding societal setups that would inevitably lead to problems. Is this an unreasonable stance?
I think youāll find if you talk to a lot of registered republicans that they do actually hold those views, but that many of the establishment career politicians hold different views than the people voting for them. Ironically, people who are against sending obscene amount of money to ukraine are now called ābigotsā. so if they push for small gov and fiscal responsibility, theyāre a bigot. but if they donāt, theyāre a hypocrite? arenāt you being unfair?
I donāt think you owe anyone anything. I think that youāre in the wrong, and are an authoritarian tyrant and bigot yourself, if you try to shut down a conversation between two consenting people who are completely unrelated to you and arenāt addressing you. If you donāt wish to speak to someone, thatās on you, feel free to ignore them or block them. But it says a lot about you if the second you run into a disagreement, or if you think someoneās doing something wrong, instead of helping correct their behavior or ideas, you instead shut down the conversation and let them keep doing what theyāre doing. Do you have no feeling of obligation to help improve society? if not, Iād say that puts you as worse than them. While they may be misinformed or perhaps hateful due to their ignorance, you are openly admitting that you donāt wish to improve society. Iād much prefer a misinformed and ignorant group who want to do the right thing, than someone who neglects the possibility of improving society.
I thought āreality has a liberal biasā and all that? Surely, if we allow people to discuss, to debate, to converse with each other, and to let everyone speak rather than a few, we should arrive at what is true, yeah? if youāre saying people will become conservative after fair uncensored debate and discussion, then surely they are right? No one is asking for 4chan. thereās a difference between fair, uncensored, civil polite discussion, and shitflinging slurs around. exploding-heads themselves have a ban on slurs.
One of the best subreddits for actual discussion between people of differing ideas? Iād prefer if more places where like that, personally. What issue do you have with them? Theyāre a meme sub but the civility there is awe inspiring.
I canāt say thatās ever been my experience in right wing spaces. Iāve only ever had that experience in progressive spaces. Perhaps what youāre experiencing isnāt a problem with right wing people, but rather the hostility and polarization between two groups that are constantly at each otherās throats because they refuse to hear each other out?
Why do you feel that their insults shouldnāt be allowed, but yours should? Isnāt that unfair? Either we prevent all insults and have civil discussion (my preference), or we allow all insults from both sides. Surely thatās fair?
The opposite is actually happening here. You are trying to push your content preferences onto everyone else. All Iām saying is: let the users decide. If you wanna block them, go ahead. Craft your own echochamber. But why should you being offended at civil discussion mean that no one else can discuss things?
Fair enough. This seems to be a bug then. I agree that should be fixed. blocking should prevent you from seeing the blocked content.
My understanding was that Iād sign up on a single site, and then have access to content from across the federated sites. Not: have to sign up an account on each individual site, and only see that one siteās content. Isnāt that latter way just a centralized platform? where is the āfederatedā part then?
Sign up on one site -> see content from all the sites. is this not the point of the fediverse? are you really saying the fediverse is: sign up on one site -> see only that siteās content? because that just sounds like a regular centralized platform to me.
Do you prefer having a centralized authority dictating your exposure to content? What prevents you from personally blocking instances you disagree with and allowing others to make their own choices? Is it possible that the idea of critical thinking is discomforting and itās more convenient to be shielded from diverging opinions, rather than exercising personal discernment?
Fuck off to your sad shithole, nobody has any obligation to be nice to Nazis. To the contrary, every decent person should feel obligated to strongly tell them to fuck off. You donāt have a space here, we donāt want you here, you are not welcome.
Iām not talking about letting nazis be here, Iām talking about not calling everyone you donāt like nazis.
I know what you pretend you mean, nobody is falling for that.
Like, you mean, a website? Thatās what you mean by ācentralized authorityā, right? A website? With its Terms and Conditions, following the applicable copyright and IP laws, following the relevant laws of the jurisdiction it operates in? Yeah, Iām fine with that.
If youāre not, go to Exploding Heads. They welcome you. They want you.
We donāt.
I donāt want exploding-heads. I would have blocked the instance myself if it hadnāt been blocked already. My issue is I donāt like having content blocked FOR me because Iām a functioning adult that can make my own decisions about what I see and think. You should be careful with how quick you are to cede control of what youāre allowed to see to others. Might make you pretty susceptible to hate and give you a false sense of reality.
Oh, I see. You want 4chan.
Well, good news! 4chan exists! Go there.
I like how youāre acting like you arenāt toxic yourself
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Yes.
Blocking a person or instance still allows the bigotry to spread.
Who defines what counts as ābigotryā? I think the guys over at beehaw are extremely bigoted. does that mean that we should prevent everyone from speaking with them simply because I think theyāre bigots?
The problem here is what gets defined as bigotry and who gets to define it? I was called a nazi for expressing the same opinion Iām expressing here. Do you think that might be a bit much? How long until the bubble of acceptable thoughts and opinions shrinks so much YOU get defined as a nazi?
Your argument is known as the āslippery slope fallacyā, @Kantiberl.
Edit: Iām guessing itās a bug, but I canāt get this comment to reply to the right person.
The community itself is kindly asking you to fuck off with its comments and downvotes, no central authority needed
This is the approach I support. donāt like certain content? block, downvote, move on. donāt demand that everyone else be prevented from seeing it.
I donāt think I jive with the notion that kbin is somehow āaboveā hating Nazis.
How do we define ānaziā and who is the authority that applies that label? If the word ānaziā is carelessly applied to anyone exhibiting even slightly right-leaning tendencies, it diminishes its significance and undermines your credibility. This kind of naive approach and severe lack of nuance will lead to an intolerant echo chamber.
Fuck nazis, but also fuck anyone who dilutes the meaning by inappropriately labeling any viewpoint they donāt like as nazism or fascism.
Carefully, on a case-by-case basis; and the community.
Itās not nearly as complicated as it seems on the surface - and youāre trying to make any definition of ānaziā as complicated as possible, because youāre wanting to delegitimize any rejection of nazis or nazi speech.
Remember how you said you donāt care if people like you, you just want to push your topics on other people?
No one cares if the Nazis think theyāre ācredibleā or not. Each and every one of them will tell you theyāre not a nazi and they āhateā nazis - while defending themselves and their nazi buddies from critique by insisting the label for their ideology is, for example, ācheapenedā if applied to anyone who is not a card-carrying, armband-wearing, farcical exaggeration of stereotypical Nazis in full Reich dress regalia.
They always send the clean cut, quiet, polite one in first. And that guy puts a foot in the door, argues that their pals arenāt really nazis, and that everyone in the room are the real baddies for judging those other guys unfairly - and tries to pry the door wider so their Nazi buddies can come in. Sure enough, every time, you let enough nazis in the room and the room is a nazi space now - so the whole gang of them donāt have to pretend at being polite non-nazis anymore. The polite veneer, the deep care for ādebateā, and ārespect for all viewpointsā? Those are all just tools, trying to whitewash and re-legitimize an ideology whose end goal is harming other people.
Notice how Iām casually referring to you like youāre one of them? Thatās not some wokist over-use of the term. Youāre standing here defending them, youāre trying to shove a foot in the door for them, laying down apologia for their views and their right to share them - youāve spent like a week around the Fediverse arguing against any actions that have served to limit Nazis access to polite and adult spaces within the Fediverse as a whole. I donāt care what you believe about yourself, or your views, or your ideology.
If youāre going to stand with Nazis, if youāre going to stand for them, consistently and repeatedly - donāt get all offended and playact at being victimized when people assume that you are a member of the group you chose to stand with.
Iām not aligning with nazis, but advocating against the misuse and overuse of the term (which is utterly rampant here). The problem with using such powerful labels casually is that it muddies the waters and blurs lines that should be clear but now arenāt precisely because of the misuse of the term. Itās this very misuse that is leading to misinterpretations, such as the one weāre facing here, where Iām inaccurately labeled as standing with nazis. My stance is about nuanced understanding and precision in communication, not about sympathizing with hate ideologies. I am defending thoughtful dialogue, not nazis, and itās important not to conflate the two. Since everyone is so happy with misusing the term, what are we going to call ACTUAL nazis so that we can differentiate people you disagree with and ACTUAL FUCKING NAZIS. The semantics youāre playing with are a dangerous game, and do nothing but prove my point.
Youāre aligning yourself with nazis while engaging in sophistry to pretend that neither you nor they are nazis.
All these wild mental gymnastics to explain how itās not like that, or the farcical posturing of academic exactitude and ānuanced understandingā - those are the exact same shit as nazis sending in the quiet well-spoken guy to break the ice and get a foot in the door.
Youāre doing triple overtime to figure out ways to argue compassion for cryptofascists and nazi sympathizers, while going even further out of your way to avoid having the faintest shred of empathy for people who simply want nothing to do with any of that bullshit.
You can call them whatever you want. You donāt get to demand that we call them what you want us to. You donāt get to demand that we ignore your choice to align yourself with them, to defend them, and to try and make their views sound more palatable and more reasonable than their end goals.
I completely understand that you absolutely refuse to get it and will continue to avoid getting it forevermore - but Iām going to say it for the rest of the room anyways.
Those guys are the āACTUAL FUCKING NAZISā.
They just understand that pretending that theyāre not is the only way to get through the door of spaces dominated by the reasonable mainstream theyād like to sell their ideology to. They know that the reasonable mainstream wants nothing to do with āACTUAL FUCKING NAZISā so the āACTUAL FUCKING NAZISā dress up as the people youāre currently defending and trying to make this conversation about. And anyone in that group that youāre trying to defend the nazis by pointing towards, any single person among them who doesnāt want to stand with nazis - changes where they stand so that theyāre not with the nazis anymore. Youāre staying still while trying to defend that decision.
The āACTUAL FUCKING NAZISā donāt dress up in SS Uniforms and āheilā each other in the comments sections - they pretend to be reasonable mainstream people and in order to present their views and their talking points wrapped in rhetoric that masks its nazi roots. They want to win over the mainstream, they want to convince people theyāre āon toā something, they want to exploit our willingness to engage in discourse to sell their views and advance their ideology. They are not here to engage in debate - the debate is merely a vehicle towards seizing power and then acting out an ideology of violence and hatred.
Iām not āplaying semanticsā - Iām not even engaging with yours.
We are not going to split hairs and massage academic definitions until āACTUAL FUCKING NAZISā arenāt actually nazis anymore. Either youāre a useful idiot and not qualified to try and talk down on folks about the intricate semantics of ānaziā - or youāre actually on their side.
You accusing them of being a Nazi was inevitable it seems. You donāt even realize the irony.