Israel ordered people out of swathes of the main southern city in the Gaza Strip on Monday (December 4) as it pressed its ground campaign deep into the south, sending desperate residents fleeing even as it dropped bombs on areas where it told them to go. Lucy Fielder has more.
You canât depose Hamas, even if they managed to kill all of their leaders(, who donât reside in the Gaza strip anyway), theyâll just elect new ones
That has yet to be established, but it sounds like youâre making a case for annexation. If they are unwilling to pacify themselves, that seems like the most humane remaining option that keeps Israel safe.
They were attacked because they stole these (holy )lands, and were continuing to steal more and more of them,
Those lands were annexed because Palestinians declared war on Israel and lost, funny how the anti-Israel crowd always conveniently forgets this and portrays the Palestinians as victims when they were absolutely the aggressors.
Whatâs the point, would killing 100 persons in retaliation deter palestinians from fighting back ? 1000 ? 3000 ? 5000 ?
If they are reasonable, yes it would. It would encourage them to find a path to peace. Perhaps they are not reasonable, their history of poking the bear, popular support of intifada and a one-state solution where they deny rights to Jews certainly seems to indicate an unwillingness to compromise, which led to their present situation.
I have much to learn by talking with a pro-israeli, my sincere thanks for engaging.
[The claim that âif you kill their leaders theyâll just elect new onesâ] has yet to be established
As i said with Benjamin Netanyahu : killing him wonât destroy Israel, just as killing their leaders wouldnât destroy Hamas.
We have to solve the root of the problem, because âHamasâ(palestinians) have the moral high ground here, « If israelis are unwilling to pacify themselves, the destruction of Israel seems like the most humane remaining option that keeps Palestine safe. », wouldnât you agree ?
« Palestine was annexed because israelis declared war on Palestine and won, funny how the Anti-Palestine crowd always conveniently forgets this and portrays the israelis as victims when they were absolutely the aggressors. »
« If israelis are reasonable, yes [killing them would be enough to deter them from killing more palestinians and occupying (more&more of )their land]. It would encourage them to find a path to peace. Perhaps they are not reasonable, their history of poking the bear, popular support of settlers and a one-state solution where they deny rights to palestinians certainly seems to indicate an unwillingness to compromise, which led to their present situation. »
I canât understand how you could paint the israelis as the victims here : they were the ones who stole the lands(, and are continuing to steal more of it), theyâre killed way less than theyâre killing, both before and after Oct.7, with less material destructions, yet i canât wish for them to permanently excuse themselves for existing, even if they should. Thereâs a few solutions possible other than a two-state solution, i can only regret that public debates donât turn around this research of solutions instead of simply supporting one side, the anger of palestinians is legitimate, but whatâs the plan. Israel is asking for a lot and canât offer much in exchange, if i was arab i could consider that such weird locations could have a weird civilization different from the rest there, after all the muslims have expanded so much that they could accept to âpaint in another colorâ/~lose one of their heart, but not without consequences for israelis/westerners, it should result at the very least in a huge boost for the ummah, something deemed worthwhile by all of them, which wonât happen since we(sterners) wonât give any of our âheartsâ.
A crazy idea would be to plan for all countries to ally together in order to colonize and terraform Mars(, with commitments to certain realizations), from 2070 to 2177 for instance(, or longer if necessary), and our collective effort will be entirely done in order to give the whole planet Mars to countries claiming to be islamic. Itâs a good situation in the solar system, and despite many problems and uncertainties could be deemed a huge gain without being more than a financial loss for other countries. Other possibilities exist even if this one may seem/be far-fetched.
the aggressors ⊠theyâre killed way less than theyâre killing, both before and after Oct.7,
Casualties inflicted is not necessarily indicative of aggression. I say that Palestine is the aggressor not because they have a higher body count, but because they literally started the conflict, both by instigating the earliest massacres against Jews in mandatory Palestine, making a one state solution impossible, by declaring war on Israel with their Arab allies in '48, and later trying it again unsuccessfully in the 6-day war. They also instigated this latest reprisal even though their attack wasnât as effective as Israelâs response.
Just because Israelâs self-defense is way more effective than Palestineâs constant attacks against them does not mean they are the aggressors. They didnât start this fight, but they consistently respond to attacks and threats quite effectively as they are on the winning side of asymmetrical combat.
they were the ones who stole the lands(, and are continuing to steal more of it),
Jews started out legally buying lands in Mandatory Palestine until they were massacred and had war waged on them on when they declared statehood. Any lands annexed is a result of this.
Thereâs a few solutions possible other than a two-state solution
No doubt, I wish their appreciation for realpolitik was as great as their anger, because thatâs how one finds a path out of this situation; rationality and compromise and diplomacy and logic. Anger will not change their situation, it has led to things being this way.
Israel is asking for a lot and canât offer much in exchange
They are asking for security and a return of hostages, and they have a lot of freedoms and land they can offer if Palestine is willing and able to deliver it. Because they are bargaining from a position of strength Israel probably wonât have to make as many diplomatic concessions for a viable peace. The alternative, of course, is that they remain belligerent, continue intafada, settlements continue and Palestine is eventually annexed entirely. Palestine should really be trying to make a viable peace lest they end up with nothing.
it should result at the very least in a huge boost for the ummah, something deemed worthwhile by all of them
If ummah were a factor here I suspect Egypt wouldnât be keeping Rafah closed, they clearly care more about using them as pawns with claims to land than they do the lives of Gazans stuck there. While there is only one Jewish state there are many Arab/Islamic ones in the area and none of them seem willing to help Palestine, probably because those who did historically suffered for it with military losses, coups, and terrorist organizations operating within their borders.
our collective effort will be entirely done in order to give the whole planet Mars to countries claiming to be islamic.
This is the first time Iâve heard, âsend Muslims to Mars,â pitched as a solution. Somehow I donât think theyâll go for it.
Jews started out legally buying lands in Mandatory Palestine until they were massacred and had war waged on them on when they declared statehood. Any lands annexed was a result of this.
The Ottoman Empire forbade them to buy these lands during the XIXth century, and would never have accepted the british decisions, were the arabs just supposed to let them declare statehood ?
Polling indicates Palestinians want intifada and a one-state solution where Jews are denied equal rights, and they outnumber Israelis.
And what do israelis want ? A two-states solution ? Why wonât they put an end to the settlements then, and why is it anything else than a net gain for them and a loss for palestinians ?
What are the compromises that we(sterners) are making ?
Anger will not change their situation, it has led to it being this way.
The anger of israelis led to them killing thousands of people, no ?
But yeah, youâre probably right, i donât really know what they expected, some kind of victory perhaps, theyâre at war as well, and seized an occasion.
If ummah were a factor here I suspect Egypt wouldnât be keeping Rafah closed, they clearly care more about using them as pawns with claims to land than they do the lives of Gazans stuck there.
If Egypt cared about palestinians they would help Israel in deporting them ?
While there is only one Jewish state there are many Arab/Islamic ones in the area and none of them seem willing to help Palestine, probably because those who did suffered for it with coups and terrorist organizations within their borders.
Most of them are still suffering because of their support/principles. Every single one of them is willing to help Palestine, but the more youâre trying to put pressure and the more youâre exposing your citizens for reprisals, so the extent of their actions may vary, i still think that they could win but what do i know really.
(And realpolitik donât look at morals, it is machiavelism, looking for whatâs fair/right/virtuous and then the realist ways to do this seems a better practice)
The Ottoman Empire forbade them to buy these lands during the XIXth century, and would never have accepted the british decisions, were the arabs just supposed to let them declare statehood ?
Yes. You skipped a few steps in there though, the Ottomans were deposed, the British allowed them to buy land, Arab nationalists started massacring Jews because they didnât like them legally buying land, a 2-state solution became impossible, the UN divided them into countries because of this, Israel declared themselves a country with the borders the UN drew, Palestinian Arabs declared war on them and tried to destroy their state, they lost, and those were were belligerent or left had lands annexed (Nakba.) Not murdering your peaceful neighbors for legally buying seems like a low bar to clear, as does letting them have their own home where you canât murder them. If they had remained peaceful the levant might be one multiethnic country today. Heck, if they had stopped trying to murder the Jews at any time for the past 70 years Palestine might not be in this situation.
And what do israelis want ? A two-states solution ?
Good question, Iâd be interested to see polling on this matter if youâve read any.
Why wonât they put an end to the settlements then
Probably because:
It puts pressure on Palestine to negotiate for viable peace because if they donât they will lose everything.
If Palestine is unwilling to pacify themselves, the distance created from slow annexation via settlers will eventually create safety for Israel via distance from belligerent nations hostile to them.
Dismantling the settlements in Gaza as part of their 2005 unilateral withdrawal didnât work out so well for Israel in hindsight.
why is it anything else than a net gain for them and a loss for palestinians ?
These nations are at war, which is arguably a zero-sum game. Israel is negotiating from a place of strength, which means they can further their own interests far more effectively than Palestine can.
What are the compromises that we(sterners) are making ?
I donât follow. Why should westerners make any compromises, and for whom?
The anger of israelis led to them killing thousands of people, no ?
They were able to do that because of a modern military, not because of anger.
But yeah, youâre probably right, i donât really know what they expected, some kind of victory perhaps, theyâre at war as well, and seized an occasion.
A Pyrrhic victory at best, given the destruction the attack has caused their nation.
If Egypt cared about palestinians they would help Israel in deporting them ?
If Egypt cared more about Palestinian lives than land claims and putting pressure on Israel, they would let Gazans voluntarily leave en masse, (even if Egypt were not their final destination;) deportation implies they are forced to leave.
Most of them are still suffering because of their support/principles. Every single one of them is willing to help Palestine, but the more youâre trying to put pressure and the more youâre exposing your citizens for reprisals, so the extent of their actions may vary, i still think that they could win but what do i know really.
The kinds of âhelpâ they are offering are very limited, diplomatic stuff mostly. Many of the surrounding countries that let Palestinians stay have to deal with terror groups launching attacks on Israel from within their borders and reprisals, like Hezbollah in Lebanon who are now part of the government. The PLO caused civil war in Jordan when too many Palestinians settled there.
Every Arab nation that went to war with Israel on behalf of Palestine got their asses handed to them, and many lost territory for it. Thatâs how Egypt lost Gaza (which they no longer want back, refusing it in the Camp David accords.)
(And realpolitik donât look at morals, it is machiavelism, looking for whatâs fair/right/virtuous and then the realist ways to do this seems a better practice)
Itâs good to have morals, but morals donât win wars, nor does righteousness. Acknowledging the reality of oneâs political and military situation is nessicary if one is to improve the situation of their nation.
Your answer for the past is that Israel should have been allowed to take âbackâ these (holy )lands, important for all the âchildrenâ of Abraham, perhaps that the arabs are also attached to these lands and would prefer to see them ruled by arabs/muslims, and not israelis/jews, they also had/have an importance for christians(, crusades). If they ever agree to lose one of their âheartsâ, then fairness would require to give one of our âheartsâ in exchange to palestinians(, with a lot of money, e.g. 0.1% of the g.d.p. of every country for a year, as well as the promise to leave the Middle-East alone, to lift sanctions, to ensure the security&âtotal separationâ of both Israel and this state, etc.)
I think that it is the root of our disagreement, youâre starting from their right to take these lands to explain that the sins done by Israel were necessary(, if so are they still sins ?,) since they had hostile neighbours who wanted their destruction. Destroying Israel would be awful, but destroying Palestine is justified because they didnât accepted Israel in the first place. Perhaps, i think that their desire to expand their borders is more important than their desire for security, but to get back to the ârootâ of our disagreement, youâve seen that iâm not among those who want israelis to g.t.f.o., but i canât blame those who do(, would you have accepted if they took one of our âheartsâ by force ? Itâs not Mecca or Medina but still).
You may think that itâs not such a big deal to take/keep these lands, perhaps youâre right, everything is relative, then perhaps that in the same sense it wouldnât be such a big deal to give them a territory as well(, it could be the occasion to seal an alliance).
If youâd like a one sentence summary : You probably wouldnât have accepted it either if islamists took a portion in the heart of our lands, not by might at least, but possibly if you/we were given something which would âbe satisfyingâ/âmade it acceptableâ.
Now that i think about it, i canât resolve myself to say that they donât have any legitimate right to revive their culture on their ancient lands(, still donât agree with their refusal to be christian or muslim as well though, John and Muhammad ï·ș were prophets, the disagreements arenât worth such profound schism, we follow Abraham, and more importantly (virtues and )God, christianity and judaism could be considered as sects of islam, or all of them sects of abrahamism(, thatâs diversity without unity here)), but i know that we(sterners) wouldnât owe arabs anything in exchange if it was totally just/fair to take these lands, so iâll stay with my conclusion : the problem isnât that Israelâs existence isnât accepted by palestinians&muslims, but that we didnât made its existence acceptable, in other words itâs up to us to make this right.
Youâll probably say that we wonât make their loss acceptable, then i donât see why they should accept it, or why they should care if Israel disappears, if itâs the law of the strongest then they have a chance to win( for all i know).
I appreciate your tone and demeanor, itâs nice to have a civil discussion with someone who disagrees, especially in this domain where emotions can run so hot.
Your answer for the past is that Israel should have been allowed to take âbackâ these (holy )lands, ⊠perhaps that the arabs are also attached to these lands and would prefer to see them ruled by arabs/muslims, and not israelis/jews, they also had/have an importance for christians(, crusades). ⊠You may think that itâs not such a big deal to take/keep these lands, perhaps youâre right, everything is relative,
I know thatâs the motivation for many Jews and Muslims, I donât personally care about ancient claims nor do I believe they are very relevant to the present conflict. What matters more is who controls it now, and fighting over holy cities just ensures that this will never end because itâs hard to compromise with people who believe God is on their side and granted them access to specific lands. On some level I think the world would be better off if neither party had Jerusalem and it was independent, like the original partition plan called for, but now that ship has sailed and Israel controls it. I donât see this changing any time soon.
If they ever agree to lose one of their âheartsâ, then fairness would require to give one of our âheartsâ in exchange to palestinians(, with a lot of money, e.g. 0.1% of the g.d.p. of every country for a year, as well as the promise to leave the Middle-East alone, to lift sanctions, to ensure the security&âtotal separationâ of both Israel and this state, etc.)
Unfortunately I donât think any of that is viable except perhaps for the security and separation part, it would be hard for the losing side to get the winning side to agree to such terms and pay war reparations for a war they didnât start and won.
I think that it is the root of our disagreement, youâre starting from their right to take these lands to explain that the sins done by Israel were necessary(, if so are they still sins ?,) since they had hostile neighbours who wanted their destruction.
Iâm not sure they have the right, legally speaking annexation hasnât been legal internationally since WWII although it still happens, but itâs certainly justifiable in the name of self-defense. Returning territories while their enemy remains belligerent seems like a bad strategy. The problem is that war is not a transitory state in this part of the world like the UN assumes are their nature, it is a permanent condition. Palestine refuses to concede despite being defeated time and time again. From the polling Iâve seen, most Palestinians donât want to compromise for anything less than the '48 lands back with a one-state solution they control, which is a non-starter. International laws regarding war seem to be written with the idea that wars end when peace is sued for, and this conflict doesnât fit into that mold because of a desire for endless resistance regardless of realpolitik.
Destroying Israel would be awful, but destroying Palestine is justified because they didnât accepted Israel in the first place. ⊠then perhaps ⊠it wouldnât be such a big deal to give them a territory as well(, it could be the occasion to seal an alliance).
I donât think either should be destroyed, but thatâs probably what will happen if Palestine doesnât surrender and pacify itself. Endless intifada will just push Israel to keep responding to violence with harsh responses and annexations, and they hold all the cards militarily speaking. If I were in charge, I think the best solution would be to eventually make the entire west bank the state of Palestine, contiguous and autonomous, provided it remains peaceful. This is not possible while the population wants revenge more than viable peace.
Perhaps, i think that their desire to expand their borders is more important than their desire for security,
Strive for peace based on a two-state solution: 36%
Strive to annex the West Bank and establish a single state with privileged status for Jews: 28%
Strive to annex the West Bank and establish one state with full equal rights for all: 11%
Donât know: 25%
You probably wouldnât have accepted it either if islamists took a portion in the heart of our lands, not by might at least, but possibly if you/we were given something which would âbe satisfyingâ/âmade it acceptableâ.
Certainly I can understand their outrage, but how to logically respond would depend upon a nationâs ability to change that situation. Iâm reminded of the saying, âgive me strength to change what I cannot accept and wisdom to accept what I cannot change.â
Certainly I can understand their outrage, but how to logically respond would depend upon a nationâs ability to change that situation.
Weâre arriving at the end of the discussion then, because we can argue about their chances but in the end none of us (can pretend to )know.s the future. Hereâs why i think that the law of the strongest doesnât necessarily work against them :
Afghanistan is the best modern example of people who won against impossible odds.
Since you mentioned ârealpolitikâ, and while you may have heard of it before, you could have heard it again recently with John Mearsheimer and others during the war in Ukraine, it is linked to Afghanistan in that, if all ukrainians were (traitors )like those in eastern Galicia, i doubt that Russia could have kept these territories : they would have had to face constant âterrorismâ by more numerous inhabitants.
In the same spirit, wars for decolonization could also count as other examples of successful fights against overwhelming odds.
Yet when iâm thinking of such examples itâs about locals united in their perception of foreign armies as the enemy, and couldnât be applied for Israel(, not occupied by a majority of locals/palestinians).
Even without that, they can win(, i.d.k. if they will,) if the ummah was united.
If it wasnât enough of a weight(, i doubt it), they would certainly change the scale by uniting with Africa, the rest of Asia, Russia, and also South America. Thatâd mean even more coups by the west in order to keep control, and then by the rest, we(sterners) are lucky that theyâre still closer to us.
(What interest me more is whether they should win(, and on what terms), the law of the strongest shouldnât matter, but even through that lens, )Hereâs a (naive )picture of how it could happen :
theyâll throw a lot of propaganda to make their citizens f*cking hate to death israelis, painting them as monsters by recycling their war crimes and implying that theyâre doing so because theyâre evils, not because they want to survive, antisemitism could also help in that ;
theyâll progressively cut all economic ties with the west as long as we dont accept their request, and have prepared beforehand as much as they can to withstand sanctions/âeconomic warâ ;
theyâll strengthen their link and, this is important, pledge publicly and repeatedly that theyâll invade each other if(when) someone is elected(, or placed after a coup,) that intend to break this oath ;
theyâll regularly make military threats to Israel, but without acting upon it unless they know how to get rid of the bomb, so mostly to mark a point before diplomatic meetings and eventually take a habit of strengthening popular support like that, rejoicing in the fear that they think it may bring israelis, and of the coming day when theyâll conquer back their lands, as well as enact laws against israelis or even perhaps westerners ;
âŠ
If âfairness is excludedâ/âmight makes rightâ/âthe only factor is strengthâ, then theyâre not weak.
Only God would know how to solve this situation in the most perfect manner(, ideally if we were perfect/ânever doing anything that another being would consider bad for h.er.imâ then we wouldnât rely on states, laws, borders, âŠ, for protection, just freely join and leave communities with their own rules and paradise would come unto Earth, lands wouldnât belong to anyone and we wouldnât possess anything else, only living to do good to each other, but since weâre not perfect itâs useless to point that out(, Israel would be destroyed if they acted like that, and Palestine wouldnât be recovered, and more generally societies would collapse, Christ is/shows the Way but if the other donât also believe that heâs one with you it obviously quickly becomes useless, sry for the unproductive rambling).
Afghanistan is the best modern example of people who won against impossible odds.
Israel is literally fighting for its existence and has nowhere to retreat to should they lose. Afghanistan, like Vietnam, was not an existential threat to the US. Itâs not really comparable because of this.
Since you mentioned ârealpolitikâ, and while you may have heard of it before, you could have heard it again recently with John Mearsheimer and others during the war in Ukraine, it is linked to Afghanistan in that, if all ukrainians were (traitors )like those in eastern Galicia, i doubt that Russia could have kept these territories : they would have had to face constant âterrorismâ by more numerous inhabitants.
Ukraine is also fighting for its existence.
Realpolitik just means acknowledging the political realities of their situation. Political realism.
Guerilla warfare can sometimes be effective, however I do not believe this approach will lead to victory against Israel. They have been dealing with terrorism/intifada relatively effectively for the past 70 years and have built a sophisticated system that insulates them from Palestinian belligerents. While it failed spectacularly on Oct7, I donât suspect that will happen again. The only domain where Palestinians seem to be able to gain territory is in the court of public opinion.
In the same spirit, wars for decolonization could also count as other examples of successful fights against overwhelming odds.
Even without that, they can win(, i.d.k. if they will,) if the ummah was united.
Wasnât that what happened in '48 and '67? It didnât work out well for other nations who went to war on their behalf. Israel is much stronger now than it was then.
If it wasnât enough of a weight(, i doubt it), they would certainly change the scale by uniting with Africa, the rest of Asia, Russia, and also South America. Thatâd mean even more coups by the west in order to keep control, and then by the rest, we(sterners) are lucky that theyâre still closer to us.
Interesting
I believe you are overestimating both international support for Palestine and the military capabilities of most African and South American nations.
Palestinian resistance groups are getting support from Iran, who is using them as a proxy, but most of their Arabic neighbors recognize that making an ally of the United States and the EU is far more strategically valuable than backing this group that wants endless war and seeking unreasonable demands. Hamas launched this attack because Saudi Arabia was about to recognize Israel, after all, and SA is dependent upon the US for security. If they alienate the US they have Iran to contend with.
Russia has its own issues right now and cannot afford another front, and there are many Russian Jews in Israel. Given their behaviors in Chechnya, they do not seem to be sympathetic to Muslims.
If âfairness is excludedâ/âmight makes rightâ/âthe only factor is strengthâ, then theyâre not weak.
It is not the only factor but it is the most relevant one in this conflict, because itâs so very asymmetrical.
Only God would know how to solve this situation in the most perfect manner
If such creatures exist, they havenât weighed in, which is curious given that Allah/Yahweh supposedly care so much about their followers and who controls their holy cities. Funny how gods are always concerned with the same things that their followers and the men who claim to speak for them are, rather than what Iâd expect from omnipotent creatures beyond our understanding. It would be like humans trying to control ant societies in our backyards, why would we care?
freely join and leave communities with their own rules and paradise would come unto Earth
I hope we get there one day, albeit through secular means.
That has yet to be established, but it sounds like youâre making a case for annexation. If they are unwilling to pacify themselves, that seems like the most humane remaining option that keeps Israel safe.
Those lands were annexed because Palestinians declared war on Israel and lost, funny how the anti-Israel crowd always conveniently forgets this and portrays the Palestinians as victims when they were absolutely the aggressors.
If they are reasonable, yes it would. It would encourage them to find a path to peace. Perhaps they are not reasonable, their history of poking the bear, popular support of intifada and a one-state solution where they deny rights to Jews certainly seems to indicate an unwillingness to compromise, which led to their present situation.
I have much to learn by talking with a pro-israeli, my sincere thanks for engaging.
As i said with Benjamin Netanyahu : killing him wonât destroy Israel, just as killing their leaders wouldnât destroy Hamas.
We have to solve the root of the problem, because âHamasâ(palestinians) have the moral high ground here, « If israelis are unwilling to pacify themselves, the destruction of Israel seems like the most humane remaining option that keeps Palestine safe. », wouldnât you agree ?
« Palestine was annexed because israelis declared war on Palestine and won, funny how the Anti-Palestine crowd always conveniently forgets this and portrays the israelis as victims when they were absolutely the aggressors. »
« If israelis are reasonable, yes [killing them would be enough to deter them from killing more palestinians and occupying (more&more of )their land]. It would encourage them to find a path to peace. Perhaps they are not reasonable, their history of poking the bear, popular support of settlers and a one-state solution where they deny rights to palestinians certainly seems to indicate an unwillingness to compromise, which led to their present situation. »
I canât understand how you could paint the israelis as the victims here : they were the ones who stole the lands(, and are continuing to steal more of it), theyâre killed way less than theyâre killing, both before and after Oct.7, with less material destructions, yet i canât wish for them to permanently excuse themselves for existing, even if they should. Thereâs a few solutions possible other than a two-state solution, i can only regret that public debates donât turn around this research of solutions instead of simply supporting one side, the anger of palestinians is legitimate, but whatâs the plan. Israel is asking for a lot and canât offer much in exchange, if i was arab i could consider that such weird locations could have a weird civilization different from the rest there, after all the muslims have expanded so much that they could accept to âpaint in another colorâ/~lose one of their heart, but not without consequences for israelis/westerners, it should result at the very least in a huge boost for the ummah, something deemed worthwhile by all of them, which wonât happen since we(sterners) wonât give any of our âheartsâ.
A crazy idea would be to plan for all countries to ally together in order to colonize and terraform Mars(, with commitments to certain realizations), from 2070 to 2177 for instance(, or longer if necessary), and our collective effort will be entirely done in order to give the whole planet Mars to countries claiming to be islamic. Itâs a good situation in the solar system, and despite many problems and uncertainties could be deemed a huge gain without being more than a financial loss for other countries. Other possibilities exist even if this one may seem/be far-fetched.
Casualties inflicted is not necessarily indicative of aggression. I say that Palestine is the aggressor not because they have a higher body count, but because they literally started the conflict, both by instigating the earliest massacres against Jews in mandatory Palestine, making a one state solution impossible, by declaring war on Israel with their Arab allies in '48, and later trying it again unsuccessfully in the 6-day war. They also instigated this latest reprisal even though their attack wasnât as effective as Israelâs response.
Just because Israelâs self-defense is way more effective than Palestineâs constant attacks against them does not mean they are the aggressors. They didnât start this fight, but they consistently respond to attacks and threats quite effectively as they are on the winning side of asymmetrical combat.
Jews started out legally buying lands in Mandatory Palestine until they were massacred and had war waged on them on when they declared statehood. Any lands annexed is a result of this.
Polling indicates Palestinians want intifada and a one-state solution where Jews are denied equal rights, and they outnumber Israelis. For obvious reasons letting those they are at war with choose their leadership is a non-starter.
No doubt, I wish their appreciation for realpolitik was as great as their anger, because thatâs how one finds a path out of this situation; rationality and compromise and diplomacy and logic. Anger will not change their situation, it has led to things being this way.
They are asking for security and a return of hostages, and they have a lot of freedoms and land they can offer if Palestine is willing and able to deliver it. Because they are bargaining from a position of strength Israel probably wonât have to make as many diplomatic concessions for a viable peace. The alternative, of course, is that they remain belligerent, continue intafada, settlements continue and Palestine is eventually annexed entirely. Palestine should really be trying to make a viable peace lest they end up with nothing.
If ummah were a factor here I suspect Egypt wouldnât be keeping Rafah closed, they clearly care more about using them as pawns with claims to land than they do the lives of Gazans stuck there. While there is only one Jewish state there are many Arab/Islamic ones in the area and none of them seem willing to help Palestine, probably because those who did historically suffered for it with military losses, coups, and terrorist organizations operating within their borders.
This is the first time Iâve heard, âsend Muslims to Mars,â pitched as a solution. Somehow I donât think theyâll go for it.
The Ottoman Empire forbade them to buy these lands during the XIXth century, and would never have accepted the british decisions, were the arabs just supposed to let them declare statehood ?
And what do israelis want ? A two-states solution ? Why wonât they put an end to the settlements then, and why is it anything else than a net gain for them and a loss for palestinians ?
What are the compromises that we(sterners) are making ?
The anger of israelis led to them killing thousands of people, no ?
But yeah, youâre probably right, i donât really know what they expected, some kind of victory perhaps, theyâre at war as well, and seized an occasion.
If Egypt cared about palestinians they would help Israel in deporting them ?
Most of them are still suffering because of their support/principles. Every single one of them is willing to help Palestine, but the more youâre trying to put pressure and the more youâre exposing your citizens for reprisals, so the extent of their actions may vary, i still think that they could win but what do i know really.
(And realpolitik donât look at morals, it is machiavelism, looking for whatâs fair/right/virtuous and then the realist ways to do this seems a better practice)
Yes. You skipped a few steps in there though, the Ottomans were deposed, the British allowed them to buy land, Arab nationalists started massacring Jews because they didnât like them legally buying land, a 2-state solution became impossible, the UN divided them into countries because of this, Israel declared themselves a country with the borders the UN drew, Palestinian Arabs declared war on them and tried to destroy their state, they lost, and those were were belligerent or left had lands annexed (Nakba.) Not murdering your peaceful neighbors for legally buying seems like a low bar to clear, as does letting them have their own home where you canât murder them. If they had remained peaceful the levant might be one multiethnic country today. Heck, if they had stopped trying to murder the Jews at any time for the past 70 years Palestine might not be in this situation.
Good question, Iâd be interested to see polling on this matter if youâve read any.
Probably because:
These nations are at war, which is arguably a zero-sum game. Israel is negotiating from a place of strength, which means they can further their own interests far more effectively than Palestine can.
I donât follow. Why should westerners make any compromises, and for whom?
They were able to do that because of a modern military, not because of anger.
A Pyrrhic victory at best, given the destruction the attack has caused their nation.
If Egypt cared more about Palestinian lives than land claims and putting pressure on Israel, they would let Gazans voluntarily leave en masse, (even if Egypt were not their final destination;) deportation implies they are forced to leave.
The kinds of âhelpâ they are offering are very limited, diplomatic stuff mostly. Many of the surrounding countries that let Palestinians stay have to deal with terror groups launching attacks on Israel from within their borders and reprisals, like Hezbollah in Lebanon who are now part of the government. The PLO caused civil war in Jordan when too many Palestinians settled there.
Every Arab nation that went to war with Israel on behalf of Palestine got their asses handed to them, and many lost territory for it. Thatâs how Egypt lost Gaza (which they no longer want back, refusing it in the Camp David accords.)
Itâs good to have morals, but morals donât win wars, nor does righteousness. Acknowledging the reality of oneâs political and military situation is nessicary if one is to improve the situation of their nation.
Your answer for the past is that Israel should have been allowed to take âbackâ these (holy )lands, important for all the âchildrenâ of Abraham, perhaps that the arabs are also attached to these lands and would prefer to see them ruled by arabs/muslims, and not israelis/jews, they also had/have an importance for christians(, crusades). If they ever agree to lose one of their âheartsâ, then fairness would require to give one of our âheartsâ in exchange to palestinians(, with a lot of money, e.g. 0.1% of the g.d.p. of every country for a year, as well as the promise to leave the Middle-East alone, to lift sanctions, to ensure the security&âtotal separationâ of both Israel and this state, etc.)
I think that it is the root of our disagreement, youâre starting from their right to take these lands to explain that the sins done by Israel were necessary(, if so are they still sins ?,) since they had hostile neighbours who wanted their destruction. Destroying Israel would be awful, but destroying Palestine is justified because they didnât accepted Israel in the first place. Perhaps, i think that their desire to expand their borders is more important than their desire for security, but to get back to the ârootâ of our disagreement, youâve seen that iâm not among those who want israelis to g.t.f.o., but i canât blame those who do(, would you have accepted if they took one of our âheartsâ by force ? Itâs not Mecca or Medina but still).
You may think that itâs not such a big deal to take/keep these lands, perhaps youâre right, everything is relative, then perhaps that in the same sense it wouldnât be such a big deal to give them a territory as well(, it could be the occasion to seal an alliance).
If youâd like a one sentence summary : You probably wouldnât have accepted it either if islamists took a portion in the heart of our lands, not by might at least, but possibly if you/we were given something which would âbe satisfyingâ/âmade it acceptableâ.
Now that i think about it, i canât resolve myself to say that they donât have any legitimate right to revive their culture on their ancient lands(, still donât agree with their refusal to be christian or muslim as well though, John and Muhammad ï·ș were prophets, the disagreements arenât worth such profound schism, we follow Abraham, and more importantly (virtues and )God, christianity and judaism could be considered as sects of islam, or all of them sects of abrahamism(, thatâs diversity without unity here)), but i know that we(sterners) wouldnât owe arabs anything in exchange if it was totally just/fair to take these lands, so iâll stay with my conclusion : the problem isnât that Israelâs existence isnât accepted by palestinians&muslims, but that we didnât made its existence acceptable, in other words itâs up to us to make this right.
Youâll probably say that we wonât make their loss acceptable, then i donât see why they should accept it, or why they should care if Israel disappears, if itâs the law of the strongest then they have a chance to win( for all i know).
I appreciate your tone and demeanor, itâs nice to have a civil discussion with someone who disagrees, especially in this domain where emotions can run so hot.
I know thatâs the motivation for many Jews and Muslims, I donât personally care about ancient claims nor do I believe they are very relevant to the present conflict. What matters more is who controls it now, and fighting over holy cities just ensures that this will never end because itâs hard to compromise with people who believe God is on their side and granted them access to specific lands. On some level I think the world would be better off if neither party had Jerusalem and it was independent, like the original partition plan called for, but now that ship has sailed and Israel controls it. I donât see this changing any time soon.
Unfortunately I donât think any of that is viable except perhaps for the security and separation part, it would be hard for the losing side to get the winning side to agree to such terms and pay war reparations for a war they didnât start and won.
Iâm not sure they have the right, legally speaking annexation hasnât been legal internationally since WWII although it still happens, but itâs certainly justifiable in the name of self-defense. Returning territories while their enemy remains belligerent seems like a bad strategy. The problem is that war is not a transitory state in this part of the world like the UN assumes are their nature, it is a permanent condition. Palestine refuses to concede despite being defeated time and time again. From the polling Iâve seen, most Palestinians donât want to compromise for anything less than the '48 lands back with a one-state solution they control, which is a non-starter. International laws regarding war seem to be written with the idea that wars end when peace is sued for, and this conflict doesnât fit into that mold because of a desire for endless resistance regardless of realpolitik.
I donât think either should be destroyed, but thatâs probably what will happen if Palestine doesnât surrender and pacify itself. Endless intifada will just push Israel to keep responding to violence with harsh responses and annexations, and they hold all the cards militarily speaking. If I were in charge, I think the best solution would be to eventually make the entire west bank the state of Palestine, contiguous and autonomous, provided it remains peaceful. This is not possible while the population wants revenge more than viable peace.
I just looked up current polling regarding what Israelis want regarding Palestine, evidently itâs a contentious issue with the Israeli public generally split regarding how to proceed:
Certainly I can understand their outrage, but how to logically respond would depend upon a nationâs ability to change that situation. Iâm reminded of the saying, âgive me strength to change what I cannot accept and wisdom to accept what I cannot change.â
Weâre arriving at the end of the discussion then, because we can argue about their chances but in the end none of us (can pretend to )know.s the future. Hereâs why i think that the law of the strongest doesnât necessarily work against them :
Afghanistan is the best modern example of people who won against impossible odds.
Since you mentioned ârealpolitikâ, and while you may have heard of it before, you could have heard it again recently with John Mearsheimer and others during the war in Ukraine, it is linked to Afghanistan in that, if all ukrainians were (traitors )like those in eastern Galicia, i doubt that Russia could have kept these territories : they would have had to face constant âterrorismâ by more numerous inhabitants.
In the same spirit, wars for decolonization could also count as other examples of successful fights against overwhelming odds.
Yet when iâm thinking of such examples itâs about locals united in their perception of foreign armies as the enemy, and couldnât be applied for Israel(, not occupied by a majority of locals/palestinians).
Even without that, they can win(, i.d.k. if they will,) if the ummah was united.
If it wasnât enough of a weight(, i doubt it), they would certainly change the scale by uniting with Africa, the rest of Asia, Russia, and also South America. Thatâd mean even more coups by the west in order to keep control, and then by the rest, we(sterners) are lucky that theyâre still closer to us.
(What interest me more is whether they should win(, and on what terms), the law of the strongest shouldnât matter, but even through that lens, )Hereâs a (naive )picture of how it could happen :
If âfairness is excludedâ/âmight makes rightâ/âthe only factor is strengthâ, then theyâre not weak.
Only God would know how to solve this situation in the most perfect manner(, ideally if we were perfect/ânever doing anything that another being would consider bad for h.er.imâ then we wouldnât rely on states, laws, borders, âŠ, for protection, just freely join and leave communities with their own rules and paradise would come unto Earth, lands wouldnât belong to anyone and we wouldnât possess anything else, only living to do good to each other, but since weâre not perfect itâs useless to point that out(, Israel would be destroyed if they acted like that, and Palestine wouldnât be recovered, and more generally societies would collapse, Christ is/shows the Way but if the other donât also believe that heâs one with you it obviously quickly becomes useless, sry for the unproductive rambling).
Israel is literally fighting for its existence and has nowhere to retreat to should they lose. Afghanistan, like Vietnam, was not an existential threat to the US. Itâs not really comparable because of this.
For Israel this isnât a fight to colonize, itâs a fight to exist. There are many Arab nations that could take in Palestinians, not so for Jews who have already been expelled from the Muslim world, and are facing enemies who quite explicitly want to genocide them.
Wasnât that what happened in '48 and '67? It didnât work out well for other nations who went to war on their behalf. Israel is much stronger now than it was then.
Interesting
It is not the only factor but it is the most relevant one in this conflict, because itâs so very asymmetrical.
If such creatures exist, they havenât weighed in, which is curious given that Allah/Yahweh supposedly care so much about their followers and who controls their holy cities. Funny how gods are always concerned with the same things that their followers and the men who claim to speak for them are, rather than what Iâd expect from omnipotent creatures beyond our understanding. It would be like humans trying to control ant societies in our backyards, why would we care?
I hope we get there one day, albeit through secular means.