My definition of manipulating the vote would be changing the results.
They didn’t do that. Clinton got more primary votes than Sanders. Biden got.more primary votes than Sanders.
And the reason they didn’t like Bernie makes some sense. Bernie wasn’t a Democrat. He was an independent who decided to run on the Democratic ticket because he knew that running third party would split the vote. But the Dems didn’t like the outsider trying to take over the party. They saw it as an attempt at a hostile takeover.
My definition of manipulating the vote would be changing the results.
Ok? That doesn’t disprove anything I said.
They didn’t do that.
How do you know? The parties literally run the elections, and they have already admitted they are biased and believe they have the right to pick the candidate. I wouldn’t put it past an organization so corrupt to do exactly that
Clearly the corporate sellout, neoliberal centrists aren’t going to like the fact that an actual leftist was becoming more popular than them. He would make it harder to stay in the pocket of the megacorps.
The point is what you said about them not treating Bernie unfairly is patently false.
The point is in a Democracy, especially one where we are limited to two parties, they absolutely should be impartial and listen to what their constituents actually want, and not prop up establishment Dems simply because that’s what they would prefer.
The point is the biggest hurdle to actual progress is the party that people depend on to make progress.
The point is that it’s concerning that you don’t have a problem with their underhanded tactics.
Why did you even vote for Bernie if you are a neoliberal? Are you just saying random shit to try and confuse people?
I’m not really sure what your game is or why you are making excuses for disturbing behavior amongst Democrats, but honestly it’s gross.
I’m saying that people need to actually show up and fucking vote for real progressives in the primaries.The GOP is really good at it.
The Republican establishment that opposed the Tea Party and Trump were removed by Republican primary voters. 100% of the GOP House members who voted to impeach Trump stepped down or were primaried the next year.
That’s how you change a party. Trump is vile and evil, but he also demonstrates that an outsider can transform a party if he can get people to show up for primaries.
No. It’s saying that not enough people are participating in the primaries. I’m saying that if people want change, they should stop bitching after the fact and fucking vote in the primaries, then vote Democrat no matter who the winner is in the primary.
Instead, they throw hissy fits that feed the “both sides” bullshit that keeps people from supporting the non-fascists in the general elections.
There is a way to encourage people to show up and vote for progressives in primaries, without excusing the DNCs undemocratic policies, dismissing the not insubstantial concerns of the left, and outright lying at the same time.
Example sentence: “Yes, the DNC did do Bernie dirty and manipulated the process, but we must not let us stop us from showing up to the primaries and making our preferences heard.”
By doing the opposite of that it only serves to reinforce the idea that centrist neoliberals don’t give a fuck about progressives, aren’t willing to work with the left even if it means losing their support, and are willing to gaslight and straight up lie to push their agenda.
Characterizing people who are understandably upset at the biases, manipulation, and underhanded techniques of party leadership as them “throwing a hissy fit” is myopic, condescending, and ignorant.
Both sides are bad, and this is a prime example of why that is.
Again, that didn’t stop us from practicing harm reduction and voting for the lesser of two evils in the general elections.
Even if that weren’t the case, blaming leftists for the DNCs fuckups is only going to convince us that we will never get anywhere by trying to get the Democrats on board with progressivism and that a strong 3rd party is our only option if we ever want to have a hope of seeing effective leadership.
I don’t think that strategy would work in the short term, and it would probably take the Dems and Progressives losing at least one more election to the fascists before we could gain enough support to win.
I’d rather the Democrats stop being a barrier to progress, but it looks as if they aren’t going to give us a choice and people like you excusing their behavior is only going to help make that a certainty.
The makeup of the DNC is ultimately decided at the primaries. The people that participate in those primaries are those that determine the party’s path. If primary voters had selected Bernie in 2016 or 2020, he’d have been the nominee, and he’d have been President (in 2020 - 2 democrats haven’t been elected into office back-to-back since before the Civil War).
If he’d have been the nominee and become President, the “party establishment” would have moved left. But the majority of voters in the primaries and caucuses rejected him.
If you want a progressive, you need to support them up front. But you also absolutely must follow-up with the message that doing anything other than voting for the Dems in the general is a vote for the GOP, even if your favorite primary candidate isn’t nominated.
Iowa was the first, so there was no elimination. Let me remind you the voting systems crashed and then Pete was declared the winner… and then he never won any other state again. It was a one-off victory surrounded by controversy.
It’s why Iowa lost it’s first in the nation status.
My definition of manipulating the vote would be changing the results.
They didn’t do that. Clinton got more primary votes than Sanders. Biden got.more primary votes than Sanders.
And the reason they didn’t like Bernie makes some sense. Bernie wasn’t a Democrat. He was an independent who decided to run on the Democratic ticket because he knew that running third party would split the vote. But the Dems didn’t like the outsider trying to take over the party. They saw it as an attempt at a hostile takeover.
Ok? That doesn’t disprove anything I said.
How do you know? The parties literally run the elections, and they have already admitted they are biased and believe they have the right to pick the candidate. I wouldn’t put it past an organization so corrupt to do exactly that
Clearly the corporate sellout, neoliberal centrists aren’t going to like the fact that an actual leftist was becoming more popular than them. He would make it harder to stay in the pocket of the megacorps.
The point is what you said about them not treating Bernie unfairly is patently false.
The point is in a Democracy, especially one where we are limited to two parties, they absolutely should be impartial and listen to what their constituents actually want, and not prop up establishment Dems simply because that’s what they would prefer.
The point is the biggest hurdle to actual progress is the party that people depend on to make progress.
The point is that it’s concerning that you don’t have a problem with their underhanded tactics.
Why did you even vote for Bernie if you are a neoliberal? Are you just saying random shit to try and confuse people?
I’m not really sure what your game is or why you are making excuses for disturbing behavior amongst Democrats, but honestly it’s gross.
I’m saying that people need to actually show up and fucking vote for real progressives in the primaries.The GOP is really good at it.
The Republican establishment that opposed the Tea Party and Trump were removed by Republican primary voters. 100% of the GOP House members who voted to impeach Trump stepped down or were primaried the next year.
That’s how you change a party. Trump is vile and evil, but he also demonstrates that an outsider can transform a party if he can get people to show up for primaries.
So how does telling people that Bernie got a fair shake equate to people needing to vote for progressives?
If anything that seems like it could be discouraging people. “Even Bernie couldn’t get enough votes and he was treated fairly by the DNC”.
No. It’s saying that not enough people are participating in the primaries. I’m saying that if people want change, they should stop bitching after the fact and fucking vote in the primaries, then vote Democrat no matter who the winner is in the primary.
Instead, they throw hissy fits that feed the “both sides” bullshit that keeps people from supporting the non-fascists in the general elections.
There is a way to encourage people to show up and vote for progressives in primaries, without excusing the DNCs undemocratic policies, dismissing the not insubstantial concerns of the left, and outright lying at the same time.
Example sentence: “Yes, the DNC did do Bernie dirty and manipulated the process, but we must not let us stop us from showing up to the primaries and making our preferences heard.”
By doing the opposite of that it only serves to reinforce the idea that centrist neoliberals don’t give a fuck about progressives, aren’t willing to work with the left even if it means losing their support, and are willing to gaslight and straight up lie to push their agenda.
Characterizing people who are understandably upset at the biases, manipulation, and underhanded techniques of party leadership as them “throwing a hissy fit” is myopic, condescending, and ignorant.
Both sides are bad, and this is a prime example of why that is.
Again, that didn’t stop us from practicing harm reduction and voting for the lesser of two evils in the general elections.
Even if that weren’t the case, blaming leftists for the DNCs fuckups is only going to convince us that we will never get anywhere by trying to get the Democrats on board with progressivism and that a strong 3rd party is our only option if we ever want to have a hope of seeing effective leadership.
I don’t think that strategy would work in the short term, and it would probably take the Dems and Progressives losing at least one more election to the fascists before we could gain enough support to win.
I’d rather the Democrats stop being a barrier to progress, but it looks as if they aren’t going to give us a choice and people like you excusing their behavior is only going to help make that a certainty.
The makeup of the DNC is ultimately decided at the primaries. The people that participate in those primaries are those that determine the party’s path. If primary voters had selected Bernie in 2016 or 2020, he’d have been the nominee, and he’d have been President (in 2020 - 2 democrats haven’t been elected into office back-to-back since before the Civil War).
If he’d have been the nominee and become President, the “party establishment” would have moved left. But the majority of voters in the primaries and caucuses rejected him.
If you want a progressive, you need to support them up front. But you also absolutely must follow-up with the message that doing anything other than voting for the Dems in the general is a vote for the GOP, even if your favorite primary candidate isn’t nominated.
Yes, that’s how voting works. None of that changes anything I said.
Do you think Buttigieg actually won the Iowa caucus?
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense given how caucuses work.
While Bernie had an early lead, as other candidates were eliminated their supporters went to people other than Bernie.
Iowa was the first, so there was no elimination. Let me remind you the voting systems crashed and then Pete was declared the winner… and then he never won any other state again. It was a one-off victory surrounded by controversy.
It’s why Iowa lost it’s first in the nation status.
It was a caucus, not a primary. Caucuses eliminate candidates at each caucus site until someone has a majority.