Yeah, when you live in a society that treats you like shit for an immutable characteristic that tends to happen. It’s called minority stress, and it happens to cis queer people as well.
I totally agree and it sucks that people are like that. I was just responding to the argument that any treatment is worth it when the alternative is suicide, because studies range from showing HRT helps a little to not at all at preventing suicide.
Trans people just need to be loved and accepted like everyone else but unfortunately a lot of people really suck.
Trans people just need to be loved and accepted like everyone else but unfortunately a lot of people really suck.
Point of order. Trans people do not just need to be loved and accepted. Sometimes when this discussion point comes up it’s under the context that if everyone was playing ball with pronouns and being nice then medical transition would be unnecessary. That is not the case.
While it’s true that one of the effects of medical transition means that strangers are more likely to read and not misgender you - being trans the feedback system isn’t dependent on outside observers. What a lot of people seem to think is that gender as understood by cis people, as a largely performative construct, is by and large not how trans people interact with gender.
I personally wish we would stop looking at trans healthcare from the sour perspective of needing to justify itself being a worthy endeavor or not strictly on the basis of suicide rates as though if something is not provably strictly lifesaving in every case it isn’t worthy.
because studies range from showing HRT helps a little to not at all at preventing suicide.
No they don’t. There are a couple of studies that are deliberately misrepresented by transphobes to imply this, and they often get passed around as fact, by people who aren’t familiar with the studies in question.
Then there is this one https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3043071/. It’s older, and it is misrepresented to claim that the suicide rate of trans folk doesn’t change after transition. The thing about that study is that doesn’t even assess the impact of transition. The entire cohort of trans people in the study were post transition, and questions were asked about their lifetime suicide attempts, without comparing before/after transition data. So because 41% of trans people in that study had made at least one suicide attempt at some point in their lives, the claim was made that transition doesn’t help, because “41% of post op trans people have attempted suicide”. The lead author of this particular study has spoken out several times on the misuse of the study by transphobes with an agenda, but to this day, it keeps happening…
This is a consolidation of the findings of research on trans health care, and the impact of transition on the well being of trans folk. To summarise, they looked at 55 studies on the impact of transition. 51 of those found transition to be beneficial, and 4 of them contained mixed findings.
You’ve stumbled on one of the tools that transphobes use. Deliberate misrepresentation of the facts, so that they can push for trans folk to be cut off from transition related healthcare, all whilst sounding reasonable, and sometimes even supportive. That, and trans people in sports, were the two main wedge tactics that they used to open the door to the wave of transphobia now sweeping the world.
because studies range from showing HRT helps a little to not at all at preventing suicide
You’re misinformed, the evidence supporting HRT for those that want it is sufficient that withholding it is unethical. HRT alone not being able to overcome extreme minority stress for everyone doesn’t mean it’s not helpful or necessary.
While family and community support is extremely important, it can’t replace medical transition for those that want it. You can’t hug the dysphoria away.
I’m primarily going off this meta study. They found many studies failed to reach statistical significance and many failed to account for confounding issues like psychological conditions, trauma, abuse, and substance use.
Instead of using a single meta study (which itself has limitations) as a reason to declare that HRT has no effect on suicidality—which isn’t even something the meta study claimed—you could take a peek at the political climate for trans people right now and just not?
was just responding to the argument that any treatment is worth it when the alternative is suicide
That’s not the argument…
The argument is that treatment plans are developed by evaluating risk and reward.
The risk for not treating is very high, even if the treatment doesn’t have a high rate of efficacy as long as it doesn’t introduce further risk, it’s still a valid treatment.
I made the conscious decision when I was around 14 to not transition, because I knew that it would lead to a more difficult life.
I could not make it. I would be dead if not for transition in my early 20’s.
My life is still more difficult, and I struggle with suicidal ideation, but that is entirely related to the way society treats me. I have been chased out of my career field, I have been told I am disgusting, I have been threatened, I have been sexually assault. Those things have happened because I am trans, and they have made me suicidal. But denying me treatment would take away the one aspect - the comfort in my own body - that helps protect me from the decision to commit suicide.
and transitioning at 14 might on average result in a person integrating into cis-normative society more easily than transitioning after puberty in their 20s, this means less dysphoria, less job discrimination, less chance of being a hate crime statistic, etc. - we need to make it much easier for trans kids to get the help they need so they live healthier and happier lives.
We just don’t have any evidence or reason to think trans kids are very likely to be wrong about transitioning, and we meanwhile have a mountain of evidence telling us treatment is very effective and has unusually low regret rates … this is just so obvious from a medical and scientific viewpoint, the only hangup seems to be cultural lag.
Even if we are accepting that as true, that doesn’t really have anything to do with an individual patients treatment plan. You aren’t evaluating risk based on the general population, you are evaluating risk based on patient populations with the same diagnosis.
If any risk is mitigated with gender affirming care compared to patient populations who aren’t receiving care , and the risk of harmful side effects are minimal then the treatment plan is valid.
I don’t really see how you think that comparing them to the general population makes any sense?
That would be like someone saying that people receiving treatment for HIV are still more immuno compromised than the general population…well yeah, but treatment vastly improves their total outcomes.
That would be like someone saying that people receiving treatment for HIV are still more immuno compromised than the general population…well yeah, but treatment vastly improves their total outcomes.
Suicide attempts and ideation among transgender people receiving gender affirming treatment is still very high compared to the general population.
That’s because of transphobia, not the treatment.
I’m old enough to remember the same argument being used to “prove” gays were unstable, and it’s still utter horseshit
Yeah, when you live in a society that treats you like shit for an immutable characteristic that tends to happen. It’s called minority stress, and it happens to cis queer people as well.
I totally agree and it sucks that people are like that. I was just responding to the argument that any treatment is worth it when the alternative is suicide, because studies range from showing HRT helps a little to not at all at preventing suicide.
Trans people just need to be loved and accepted like everyone else but unfortunately a lot of people really suck.
Point of order. Trans people do not just need to be loved and accepted. Sometimes when this discussion point comes up it’s under the context that if everyone was playing ball with pronouns and being nice then medical transition would be unnecessary. That is not the case.
While it’s true that one of the effects of medical transition means that strangers are more likely to read and not misgender you - being trans the feedback system isn’t dependent on outside observers. What a lot of people seem to think is that gender as understood by cis people, as a largely performative construct, is by and large not how trans people interact with gender.
I personally wish we would stop looking at trans healthcare from the sour perspective of needing to justify itself being a worthy endeavor or not strictly on the basis of suicide rates as though if something is not provably strictly lifesaving in every case it isn’t worthy.
No they don’t. There are a couple of studies that are deliberately misrepresented by transphobes to imply this, and they often get passed around as fact, by people who aren’t familiar with the studies in question.
Firstly, there was this Finnish one https://mentalhealth.bmj.com/content/27/1/e300940
You can see more about the hatchet job that the New York Post did on that one here https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/56772/does-gender-transitioning-do-nothing-to-help-suicidal-ideation
Then there is this one https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3043071/. It’s older, and it is misrepresented to claim that the suicide rate of trans folk doesn’t change after transition. The thing about that study is that doesn’t even assess the impact of transition. The entire cohort of trans people in the study were post transition, and questions were asked about their lifetime suicide attempts, without comparing before/after transition data. So because 41% of trans people in that study had made at least one suicide attempt at some point in their lives, the claim was made that transition doesn’t help, because “41% of post op trans people have attempted suicide”. The lead author of this particular study has spoken out several times on the misuse of the study by transphobes with an agenda, but to this day, it keeps happening…
So, let me give you the actual data…
https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/
This is a consolidation of the findings of research on trans health care, and the impact of transition on the well being of trans folk. To summarise, they looked at 55 studies on the impact of transition. 51 of those found transition to be beneficial, and 4 of them contained mixed findings.
You’ve stumbled on one of the tools that transphobes use. Deliberate misrepresentation of the facts, so that they can push for trans folk to be cut off from transition related healthcare, all whilst sounding reasonable, and sometimes even supportive. That, and trans people in sports, were the two main wedge tactics that they used to open the door to the wave of transphobia now sweeping the world.
You’re misinformed, the evidence supporting HRT for those that want it is sufficient that withholding it is unethical. HRT alone not being able to overcome extreme minority stress for everyone doesn’t mean it’s not helpful or necessary.
While family and community support is extremely important, it can’t replace medical transition for those that want it. You can’t hug the dysphoria away.
I’m primarily going off this meta study. They found many studies failed to reach statistical significance and many failed to account for confounding issues like psychological conditions, trauma, abuse, and substance use.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10027312/
Instead of using a single meta study (which itself has limitations) as a reason to declare that HRT has no effect on suicidality—which isn’t even something the meta study claimed—you could take a peek at the political climate for trans people right now and just not?
That’s not the argument…
The argument is that treatment plans are developed by evaluating risk and reward.
The risk for not treating is very high, even if the treatment doesn’t have a high rate of efficacy as long as it doesn’t introduce further risk, it’s still a valid treatment.
I made the conscious decision when I was around 14 to not transition, because I knew that it would lead to a more difficult life.
I could not make it. I would be dead if not for transition in my early 20’s.
My life is still more difficult, and I struggle with suicidal ideation, but that is entirely related to the way society treats me. I have been chased out of my career field, I have been told I am disgusting, I have been threatened, I have been sexually assault. Those things have happened because I am trans, and they have made me suicidal. But denying me treatment would take away the one aspect - the comfort in my own body - that helps protect me from the decision to commit suicide.
and transitioning at 14 might on average result in a person integrating into cis-normative society more easily than transitioning after puberty in their 20s, this means less dysphoria, less job discrimination, less chance of being a hate crime statistic, etc. - we need to make it much easier for trans kids to get the help they need so they live healthier and happier lives.
We just don’t have any evidence or reason to think trans kids are very likely to be wrong about transitioning, and we meanwhile have a mountain of evidence telling us treatment is very effective and has unusually low regret rates … this is just so obvious from a medical and scientific viewpoint, the only hangup seems to be cultural lag.
Even if we are accepting that as true, that doesn’t really have anything to do with an individual patients treatment plan. You aren’t evaluating risk based on the general population, you are evaluating risk based on patient populations with the same diagnosis.
If any risk is mitigated with gender affirming care compared to patient populations who aren’t receiving care , and the risk of harmful side effects are minimal then the treatment plan is valid.
I don’t really see how you think that comparing them to the general population makes any sense?
That would be like someone saying that people receiving treatment for HIV are still more immuno compromised than the general population…well yeah, but treatment vastly improves their total outcomes.
this illustrates it so well, well done