Several service members told advocacy groups they felt like pawns in a political game and assignment was unnecessary
California national guards troops and marines deployed to Los Angeles to help restore order after days of protest against the Trump administration have told friends and family members they are deeply unhappy about the assignment and worry their only meaningful role will be as pawns in a political battle they do not want to join.
Three different advocacy organisations representing military families said they had heard from dozens of affected service members who expressed discomfort about being drawn into a domestic policing operation outside their normal field of operations. The groups said they have heard no countervailing opinions.
“The sentiment across the board right now is that deploying military force against our own communities isn’t the kind of national security we signed up for,” said Sarah Streyder of the Secure Families Initiative, which represents the interests of military spouses, children and veterans.
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They shouldn’t be there. The national guard is for fighting wildfires and vaccinating hundreds of thousands of people during the pandemic. They are not to be abused for idiotic political reasons, especially for protests with very few bad apples.
The national guard, if i understand it correctly, is meant to be the well-regulated militia of the states as outlined in the 2nd amendment. They shouldn’t even be under federal control at all.
Maybe it’s time to stop “just following orders”.
One day these guys will have to pick a side between their neighbours and the oligarchy.
They’re welcome to come defend the American people from the criminal gangs known as the police and ICE.
Pawns of political games feel like pawns of political game? No fucking way, at this rate, they will get self-conscience faster than they predict it for ai.
I mean didn’t a court just said this deployment is illegal? Just use that as an excuse and be like: “fuck this, I’m out”. Like literally just start holding a poster and go to the protester’s side.
A judge ruled the troops can remain there for now.
I keep looking for cries for help on their shields.
I can totally see a scenario where they deploy but have protest messages on their shields, and maliciously comply to orders.
This is quite funny, since pawns in chess literally represent infantry units.
They should be feeling like shit. They are acting like shit and following unconstitutional orders. Grow a goddamn spine and frag any officers who give you unconstitutional orders.
If you have been trained to follow orders under extreme pressure, in an organisation that has done exactly this stuff for decades overseas to ‘other people’. And if actually you consider immigrants ‘other people’, how big a leap is it really?
they also have a dilemma, if theyw ere to shoot a citizen, then once they get out of the military, people will know who shot them and then there will be constant guilt/harrasment, or doxxing eventually.
The instant they shoot a civilian they are an outlaw. Outlaws are beyond the protection of the law. They are beyond the protections of the law. They are kill on sight.
The troops are not issued ammunition.
You got the choice to stand up and say no. No I will not use my weapons on my own fucking people because some geriatric PoS is having a terrible twos tantrum because everyone hates his ass.
Do what’s right or be remembered as the ones who did wrong.
Please. Please. Please. Come on boys, just read the Constitution, you didn’t sign up for this shit.
Their orders are illegal, thus disobeying them is not insubordination or illegal.
Not just not subordination following them is specifically illegal and historically “I was following orders” has NEVER been justification or gotten anyone off their charges. You follow illegal orders YOU are a criminal as much as your commanding officer.
Unfortunately for the most part with only a few exceptions “I was following orders” has in fact, always worked to get people off scott free for war crimes except in cases where they were committed by a nation that lost the war.
These orders will be made legal as judges have no more basis in us of a
If that were true, why do they keep getting their asses handed to them in court, and why do they keep complying with those rulings?
That’s not how military orders work.
It is 100% how military orders work. Members have an obligation to not carry out unlawful orders. I’ve yet to hear of any NATO aligned force where this isn’t drilled into people’s heads from the get-go.
Granted, given the state of the law in the U.S. these days…we’ll have to see how things go down.
Except the army’s own government website explicitly says otherwise
Any member of the military has a commonly understood obligation to disobey an illegal order;
https://www.army.mil/article/47175/breaking_ranks_dissent_and_the_military_professional
Odd that this page is still online…
Fascists are not the brightest
Tell me you never served in the military without telling me you never served in the military.
I think we are talking past eachother here. We can talk a lot about what an illegal order is; how there is training to disobey one, but that is talking about how things ought to be not how they actually are. For example, we all have agreed to not speed and taken training on it as well, yet it happens all too often. It is not unreasonable to believe that a soldier will follow an illegal order because they want to or there is enough coercion.
True, but this is abandoning their duty. Now, will there be immediate consequences for following an illegal order in the current (and coming) situation? We’ll have to see. Shit’s weird right now. But it remains the duty of servicepeople to refuse illegal orders, and the consequences are more severe if one is ultimately found to have carried out an unlawful order. This ain’t a speeding ticket - this is military prison, rank stripping, dishonourable discharge, etc.
Don’t get me wrong, it takes sand and a strong certainty to refuse unlawful orders, but it’s also not optional. It’s a requirement, one servicepeople are aware of and is generally taken seriously.
Doesn’t totally negate your point - there’s a good chance we’re going to see some awful shit from cowards in the ranks ‘just following orders’. We can only hope they are dealt with appropriately in that case.
I would argue that the deployment orders for the 2003 Iraq war were illegal, but the people who refused to follow them are the ones who got in trouble.
How do they work?
Is it possible to refuse to follow an order because you believe it is illegal?
Yes.
They can be court martialed either way. Literally an entire movie about it and a phrase that gets used everyday. Cache 22
There’s a book called Catch 22. Looks like the made a movie of it. The book is the funniest thing I’ve ever read. Made me think about how crazy fighting is. Sort of like a funny Slaughterhouse-Five.
Neither mentioned illegal orders as far as I remember. Was the movie quite different?
We read very different books. I thought the first half was hilarious, but it lulled me into a comfort of the absurdity and the banality that set up an absolutely devastating second half.
I think it’s one of the greatest books I’ve ever read, but I don’t think it was a comedy.
Sure and once the military court sees the order was illegal you’re not going to be held responsible
I hope military court works more fairly than civilian court.
Pretty much the opposite. Civilian courts generally offer more constitutional protections. Military courts can say something was contrary to “good order and discipline” aka my favorite article of the UCMJ - Article 134 - and lol, you’re fucked.
Catch 22 isn’t about illegal orders. The contradiction is more about your own sanity/safety.
Surely it’s a Catch 22, not a hidden supply of 22s stashed away somewhere?
No thats actually cache 21, duh!
Basically yeah, you can refuse, but that’s the more absolute form. What you should do if you suspect the legality of an order is to ask it in writing, register that you don’t want to follow, but will comply.
Then afterwards you’ll be less responsible. Depends on what it’s about, you can’t just register a complaint about killing kids and then do it anyway, but like for milder illegal orders.
Maybe this will be what wakes up Americas military to the fact that everything they do is political. Apparently its harder to trick people into hurting their own country though so thats good to hear.
They should be troubled. They are breaking their oath on the constitution.
On the other hand, they could easily turn and end tyranny before it really sets in.
You say “easily,” but I doubt it appears so easy, because disobeying the order first starts with you violating the UCMJ and paying for it. Only then can you fight and say hey, the order was unlawful. But you’re doing that from military jail. It’s an uphill battle and there’s nothing easy about it.
I imagine the mindset is go, stand around with a shield, don’t murk protestors, and try to just wait this shit out.
Plus, for the Marines, they were living in 29 Palms beforehand, so it’s practically a vacation.
An unpaid vacation with little food.
They’re Marines, I can tell you from experience, they are unfortunately used to it.
What if everyone does it en masse though?
And how do you propose this be coordinated?
Talk to each other? They’re all posted to the same place. By ‘everyone’, I meant all the deployed troops.
Well that’s kind of a given, I was looking for something more practical. Getting that many people on the same page about something that could easily have catastrophic consequences for all of them is not a trivial task.
That’s beyond my knowledge of the intricacies of the US military. I’m just asking if it’s possible based on the principal that there’s strength in unity.
That’s beyond my knowledge of the intricacies of the US military. I’m just asking if it’s possible based on the principal that there’s strength in unity.
It’d be awesome. But how do you get a whole unit openly discussing insubordination? I love the idea, but it’s just not practical, and not in the short amount of time. The order came down within the last week? It was probably go go go since then.
It’s not insubordination, it’s their duty.
Yeah, I just think you’ve oversimplified it all. Like I said, I love the idea, but it’s a huge ask, and it would require a lot of coordination over a period of time. I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility that sending Marines to the border, and sending them to protests in LA, is causing some kind of disenfranchisement amongst the enlisted, but a circle of dudes throwing rocks at a nalgene complaining about how this is bullshit is a far cry from an organized mutiny, essentially.
Pretty sure they were at Camp Pendleton.
From the article:
Earlier this week, he also activated 700 marines from the Twentynine Palms base two hours’ drive to the east, describing Los Angeles as a “trash heap” that was in danger of burning to the ground.
Huh, aight guess I missed that.
I just read this on another site. So who the fuck really knows what is going on?
The Pentagon also deployed 700 U.S. Marines from Camp Pendleton, with a military convoy heading from Twentynine Palms toward the City of Angels.
The fuck? Best guess I have is that maybe they are grabbing guys from both Pendleton and Twentynine Palms, either that or maybe the convoy from Twentynine Palms is National Guard and they are moving shit.
2/7 is based on 29 Palms. They may have stopped at Pendleton on the way. 29 Palms is a Marine Corps base only.
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