If you follow the menās community grifters long enough, you realize that they donāt want guys to be happy. Theyāre all closeted about something or other and so deeply ashamed that they want other men to suffer and their eventual message is ALL the same:
āReal men donāt need women, just give up hoping for a rewarding relationship, learn to accept your stoic, lonely life and just live for gaining wealth and respect.ā
Iāve been watching this shit from the sidelines for decades now, they ALL do this. Hooking naive guys in with promises of sex and affection and all the things that young men think they need, then later abandoning them because ādating isnāt even worth it.ā
Imagine being lonely, single, socially awkward and unable to talk to girls, and the ONLY people promising to help you end up stranding you with nothing to look forward to.
These people need to be purged from Earth. I cannot fathom how more and more men are latching onto this shit even as statistically, they are more lonely than ever before. Someone explain basic math to these kids.
is part of the problem with the whole conservative strong male image before you even get to the relationship status. I was raised to think that way, not being explicitly told that but it being an ingrained part of the culture.
And even THAT is a subset of the value placed on conformity and pursuing the goals you are supposed to pursue rather than what brings you actual fulfillment.
I cannot fathom how more and more men are latching onto this shit even as statistically, they are more lonely than ever before.
Because toxic masculinity communities are one of the few online spaces which donāt stigmatize you for being a white male and daring to have problems in your life despite your āprivilegeā.
If people stopped talking down on young males and actually listened to their problems, all these toxic masculinity gurus wouldnāt get the tiniest fraction of the following they have. But as long as we keep pushing onto them all the sins of everyone who ever lived with their same gender, theyāll end up falling in those communities which turns them into Andrew Tate replicas.
The problem with this is, and it drives me crazy, I keep hearing āif we talked to them-ā
Iām a woman! They wonāt talk to me! Or, if they do, itās to tell me why Iām wrong, because Iām a woman! This isnāt something I can deprogram away!
And trust me, Iāve deprogrammed right-wing shitheads before, who werenāt also misogynists. I canāt do shit for the ones who arenāt willing to talk to me. And the worst part? I have gotten lots of seemingly hopeless people into committed, loving, long-term relationships through the power of just listen to me, I can help you, but nooooo! I have breasts! Iām almost 40! I have a happy, long-term relationship, and Iām a woman, so what can I possibly know!
Iām sick to death of āwe just need to-ā No we donāt, because we canāt. Men need to. Men need to break through this toxic bullshit because we, and by this I mean, women, literally canāt. And trying- and trust me on this because Iāve tried- trying only gets abuse.
I really canāt underscore this enough. The wall I come up against is, what do you know, youāre a woman. āWeā canāt talk our way out of this one. The problem of toxic masculinity intentionally boxes women out, making it nigh impossible for women to help.
I know. The main thing they need is a non-misogynist male role model, which is becoming increasingly hard to find because apparently social media algorithms encourage the type of content that pushes them in the opposite direction.
Realistically, imo, the main way women can help with this, besides talking to them very early on (VERY early on, as Tate-types are unfortunately gaining traction in school as well), is trying to combat the misandrist narrative that keeps on growing in feminist spaces. One example is the whole Bear debacle, which furthered the divide between genders even more. If people (in general, Iām sure many men shared it as well) keep making stuff like that go viral, it makes it harder and harder for young males to develop any sort of empathy for the opposite sex.
I find it very difficult to empathize with the ābear thing,ā because, as my fiance (who is a man) put it, āI donāt know why anyone would pick any other human over the bear. Bears tend to avoid you and do your own thing. Humans are unpredictable.ā
From that perspective, it seemed like a lot of people just got mad because they identify with the word āman,ā here, and donāt want to think of themselves as capable of evil. Which would be naive, because everyone is capable of anything.
Bears donāt ātend to avoidā any more than people do. Thereās dangerous people that would assault you, and thereās species of bears (i.e. Polar Bears) that would definitely attack you on sight.
But the whole thing is not about the technicality. The videos were very clearly framed with emphasis on the gender of the human, they got extremely viral and millions of young males saw women saying stuff like āat least the bear would kill me instantlyā. How do you think they felt, as kids that probably never even had a relationship before? You think that āhelped them understand the womenās point of viewā like they said was the purpose of the video, or brought them in the opposite direction, making them feel like theyāre some different species, impossible to relate with, planting a seed that will only grow through the indoctrination of all the online toxic masculinity gurus?
Enough with the āMen vs. Womenā, especially online where young kids will see them without any context of why is that happening. Both sexes need to do their best to stop prejudices towards the other inside their groups, and only then we can have a serious and understanding conversation. Of course thatās hard to do between algorithms and bad actors, but thereās really nothing else we can do at this point, since the large majority of both camps is entrenched in their opinion and will only listen to people of their own gender.
I know broadly that the left has pretty much abandoned any talk making peopleās personal lives better and instead has tripled down on the idea that ābad people are badā for the sake of some lofty and impossible ideal of a star-trek world so liberals can broadly feel like theyāre a part of some social good. Look at the votes here now, we have created a reactionary space exactly like the right.
Dare suggest that young men have ANY problems? STRAIGHT TO THE NAZI-RIGHT WITH YOU. Never mind that these are kids who have never felt an ounce of privilege in their lives, so telling them theyāre entitled instead of talking to them and giving advice for getting girls and romance just pushes them away. But it just feels so good to hate a side though, right???
But that damage is done. We have a massive rightward swing in the US because we mismanaged fucking talking to each other. Like tripping and breaking your skull while laying in bed. We deserve this mess honestly.
We have created spaces where people with any differences are segregated and you will get roasted in places like this for reminding delusional lefties that even if we got our socialist revolution (which someone else will lead, aannnny day now), we would still have to live next to hundreds of millions of people who didnāt want it. That usually draws a lot of ire because itās not optimistic enough and involves the uncomfortable truth that we share a world with people who arenāt going to always āget itā and we need to work, live and talk amongst them. Forever.
Where iām baffled though is the basic math. Younger people are having less and less sex and relationships, people are broadly staying single and not dating or having any intimacy well into adulthood and often have NO plans to date or have a family even, so how is this eruption of sweaty used-car-salesmen making traction? There are no success stories, itās entirely manufactured. Itās no different than the flat-earth movement but for pudgy white teenage boys.
We are a species that rather withdraw into our own narratives than face reality and it will be our great filter.
Where iām baffled though is the basic math. Younger people are having less and less sex and relationships, people are broadly staying single and not dating or having any intimacy well into adulthood and often have NO plans to date or have a family even, so how is this eruption of sweaty used-car-salesmen making traction? There are no success stories, itās entirely manufactured. Itās no different than the flat-earth movement but for pudgy white teenage boys.
The āsuccess storyā is Andrew Tate, and probably even people like Musk or Trump. They see how extremely misogynistic people manage to get with multiple women nonetheless and get fooled into thinking being āstoicā and generally a jerk is the key to getting laid. They donāt realize that those people are just rich and are getting laid despite their personality, not thanks to it.
Then thereās also the ones who are fully aware of this and are sold on the āgrind mentalityā, so that they can get rich like them (again, missing the point on how all of them either did it through crimes, were born rich, or both).
Of course if you look at it with some logic it all falls apart, but you canāt expect young people to have enough knowledge to do this. They need some positive role model to tell them right from wrong, but itās becoming increasingly hard when the negative ones keep springing up like mushrooms.
We have a huge problem which is endemic and fundamental to progressive thought, which is that good, reasonable progressive thought which includes concepts like consent, like working towards better outcomes for more than yourself, empathy and respect and caring about communityā¦ those are developed over time in most people, theyāre mature concepts that come with a lot of growth. They may be particularly alien to someone who grew up in less-than-favorable environments.
So we develop these better ways of thinking, then lecture younger, dumber kids with it expecting it to land on a 17 - 22 year old boy who grew up in electronic-distractionworld, who is just fucking horny and wants to date girls but canāt reconcile that with their crushing isolation and social insecurity. To them it sounds like āblah blah blah, youāre bad, masculinity is toxic, blah blahā and they reject it just to feel strong and cool. The Tates have leveraged this and built a 2-dimensional cartoon icon around this and have ridden this grift all the way to the bank. By the time the kids realize itās not working for them, theyāve already also swallowed every right-wing, anti-intellectual pill along with it and are just bags of hopeless hate and profound sexual insecurity.
And our so-called adults are also too fucking distracted and isolated to remotely feel like the āadults in the roomā anymore.
I feel like Iām getting close to being an āold man yelling at phonesā meme, but I have watched this culture of short-attention-span pandering absolutely ruin intelligence and culture in our modern world and itās infuriating.
Yup, all of this is true and itās sad how people with influence fail to understand this.
You talked about 17-22 yo, which definitely feel negatively about people lecturing them on what they feel is an irresistible primal instinct, but another big issue is that, in the digital era, even younger kids are exposed to that. Older teenagers may feel like something they did is seen as terribly wrong and be angry at that, but thereās younger ones that probably can only think āā¦what did I even do? Why is everyone angry at me just because Iām a boy?ā.
And guess who comes in to give them āanswersā when theyāre in that confused and vulnerable state? Yup, Tate & friends. Really, theyāve figured everything about how to make as many people as possible fall in their rabbithole to profit from them, and weāre doing nothing to stop them. Even Tate was arrested only because he did some heinous shit to people āworkingā with him AND boasted about that, otherwise heād still be around. We need some serious regulations on social media algorithms, but I doubt weāre ever gonna see those in our lifetimes considering whoās in power.
We need some serious regulations on social media algorithms, and I doubt weāre ever gonna see those considering whoās in power.
I remember when we looked at Chinaās authoritarian social controls like āholy shit thatās badā and now Iām sighing pretty hard. Iām sure there was a better line we could have walked, but itās too late for any of that. We are gonna have to crash and burn as a whole culture before we see the pendulum swing back in the other direction. Just poopin back and forth. Forever.
If you follow the menās community grifters long enough, you realize that they donāt want guys to be happy. Theyāre all closeted about something or other and so deeply ashamed that they want other men to suffer and their eventual message is ALL the same:
āReal men donāt need women, just give up hoping for a rewarding relationship, learn to accept your stoic, lonely life and just live for gaining wealth and respect.ā
Iāve been watching this shit from the sidelines for decades now, they ALL do this. Hooking naive guys in with promises of sex and affection and all the things that young men think they need, then later abandoning them because ādating isnāt even worth it.ā
Imagine being lonely, single, socially awkward and unable to talk to girls, and the ONLY people promising to help you end up stranding you with nothing to look forward to.
These people need to be purged from Earth. I cannot fathom how more and more men are latching onto this shit even as statistically, they are more lonely than ever before. Someone explain basic math to these kids.
Well said!
And I will emphasize that this point:
is part of the problem with the whole conservative strong male image before you even get to the relationship status. I was raised to think that way, not being explicitly told that but it being an ingrained part of the culture.
And even THAT is a subset of the value placed on conformity and pursuing the goals you are supposed to pursue rather than what brings you actual fulfillment.
Because toxic masculinity communities are one of the few online spaces which donāt stigmatize you for being a white male and daring to have problems in your life despite your āprivilegeā.
If people stopped talking down on young males and actually listened to their problems, all these toxic masculinity gurus wouldnāt get the tiniest fraction of the following they have. But as long as we keep pushing onto them all the sins of everyone who ever lived with their same gender, theyāll end up falling in those communities which turns them into Andrew Tate replicas.
The problem with this is, and it drives me crazy, I keep hearing āif we talked to them-ā
Iām a woman! They wonāt talk to me! Or, if they do, itās to tell me why Iām wrong, because Iām a woman! This isnāt something I can deprogram away!
And trust me, Iāve deprogrammed right-wing shitheads before, who werenāt also misogynists. I canāt do shit for the ones who arenāt willing to talk to me. And the worst part? I have gotten lots of seemingly hopeless people into committed, loving, long-term relationships through the power of just listen to me, I can help you, but nooooo! I have breasts! Iām almost 40! I have a happy, long-term relationship, and Iām a woman, so what can I possibly know!
Iām sick to death of āwe just need to-ā No we donāt, because we canāt. Men need to. Men need to break through this toxic bullshit because we, and by this I mean, women, literally canāt. And trying- and trust me on this because Iāve tried- trying only gets abuse.
I really canāt underscore this enough. The wall I come up against is, what do you know, youāre a woman. āWeā canāt talk our way out of this one. The problem of toxic masculinity intentionally boxes women out, making it nigh impossible for women to help.
I know. The main thing they need is a non-misogynist male role model, which is becoming increasingly hard to find because apparently social media algorithms encourage the type of content that pushes them in the opposite direction.
Realistically, imo, the main way women can help with this, besides talking to them very early on (VERY early on, as Tate-types are unfortunately gaining traction in school as well), is trying to combat the misandrist narrative that keeps on growing in feminist spaces. One example is the whole Bear debacle, which furthered the divide between genders even more. If people (in general, Iām sure many men shared it as well) keep making stuff like that go viral, it makes it harder and harder for young males to develop any sort of empathy for the opposite sex.
I find it very difficult to empathize with the ābear thing,ā because, as my fiance (who is a man) put it, āI donāt know why anyone would pick any other human over the bear. Bears tend to avoid you and do your own thing. Humans are unpredictable.ā
From that perspective, it seemed like a lot of people just got mad because they identify with the word āman,ā here, and donāt want to think of themselves as capable of evil. Which would be naive, because everyone is capable of anything.
Bears donāt ātend to avoidā any more than people do. Thereās dangerous people that would assault you, and thereās species of bears (i.e. Polar Bears) that would definitely attack you on sight.
But the whole thing is not about the technicality. The videos were very clearly framed with emphasis on the gender of the human, they got extremely viral and millions of young males saw women saying stuff like āat least the bear would kill me instantlyā. How do you think they felt, as kids that probably never even had a relationship before? You think that āhelped them understand the womenās point of viewā like they said was the purpose of the video, or brought them in the opposite direction, making them feel like theyāre some different species, impossible to relate with, planting a seed that will only grow through the indoctrination of all the online toxic masculinity gurus?
Enough with the āMen vs. Womenā, especially online where young kids will see them without any context of why is that happening. Both sexes need to do their best to stop prejudices towards the other inside their groups, and only then we can have a serious and understanding conversation. Of course thatās hard to do between algorithms and bad actors, but thereās really nothing else we can do at this point, since the large majority of both camps is entrenched in their opinion and will only listen to people of their own gender.
I know broadly that the left has pretty much abandoned any talk making peopleās personal lives better and instead has tripled down on the idea that ābad people are badā for the sake of some lofty and impossible ideal of a star-trek world so liberals can broadly feel like theyāre a part of some social good. Look at the votes here now, we have created a reactionary space exactly like the right.
Dare suggest that young men have ANY problems? STRAIGHT TO THE NAZI-RIGHT WITH YOU. Never mind that these are kids who have never felt an ounce of privilege in their lives, so telling them theyāre entitled instead of talking to them and giving advice for getting girls and romance just pushes them away. But it just feels so good to hate a side though, right???
But that damage is done. We have a massive rightward swing in the US because we mismanaged fucking talking to each other. Like tripping and breaking your skull while laying in bed. We deserve this mess honestly.
We have created spaces where people with any differences are segregated and you will get roasted in places like this for reminding delusional lefties that even if we got our socialist revolution (which someone else will lead, aannnny day now), we would still have to live next to hundreds of millions of people who didnāt want it. That usually draws a lot of ire because itās not optimistic enough and involves the uncomfortable truth that we share a world with people who arenāt going to always āget itā and we need to work, live and talk amongst them. Forever.
Where iām baffled though is the basic math. Younger people are having less and less sex and relationships, people are broadly staying single and not dating or having any intimacy well into adulthood and often have NO plans to date or have a family even, so how is this eruption of sweaty used-car-salesmen making traction? There are no success stories, itās entirely manufactured. Itās no different than the flat-earth movement but for pudgy white teenage boys.
We are a species that rather withdraw into our own narratives than face reality and it will be our great filter.
The āsuccess storyā is Andrew Tate, and probably even people like Musk or Trump. They see how extremely misogynistic people manage to get with multiple women nonetheless and get fooled into thinking being āstoicā and generally a jerk is the key to getting laid. They donāt realize that those people are just rich and are getting laid despite their personality, not thanks to it.
Then thereās also the ones who are fully aware of this and are sold on the āgrind mentalityā, so that they can get rich like them (again, missing the point on how all of them either did it through crimes, were born rich, or both).
Of course if you look at it with some logic it all falls apart, but you canāt expect young people to have enough knowledge to do this. They need some positive role model to tell them right from wrong, but itās becoming increasingly hard when the negative ones keep springing up like mushrooms.
We have a huge problem which is endemic and fundamental to progressive thought, which is that good, reasonable progressive thought which includes concepts like consent, like working towards better outcomes for more than yourself, empathy and respect and caring about communityā¦ those are developed over time in most people, theyāre mature concepts that come with a lot of growth. They may be particularly alien to someone who grew up in less-than-favorable environments.
So we develop these better ways of thinking, then lecture younger, dumber kids with it expecting it to land on a 17 - 22 year old boy who grew up in electronic-distractionworld, who is just fucking horny and wants to date girls but canāt reconcile that with their crushing isolation and social insecurity. To them it sounds like āblah blah blah, youāre bad, masculinity is toxic, blah blahā and they reject it just to feel strong and cool. The Tates have leveraged this and built a 2-dimensional cartoon icon around this and have ridden this grift all the way to the bank. By the time the kids realize itās not working for them, theyāve already also swallowed every right-wing, anti-intellectual pill along with it and are just bags of hopeless hate and profound sexual insecurity.
And our so-called adults are also too fucking distracted and isolated to remotely feel like the āadults in the roomā anymore.
I feel like Iām getting close to being an āold man yelling at phonesā meme, but I have watched this culture of short-attention-span pandering absolutely ruin intelligence and culture in our modern world and itās infuriating.
Yup, all of this is true and itās sad how people with influence fail to understand this.
You talked about 17-22 yo, which definitely feel negatively about people lecturing them on what they feel is an irresistible primal instinct, but another big issue is that, in the digital era, even younger kids are exposed to that. Older teenagers may feel like something they did is seen as terribly wrong and be angry at that, but thereās younger ones that probably can only think āā¦what did I even do? Why is everyone angry at me just because Iām a boy?ā.
And guess who comes in to give them āanswersā when theyāre in that confused and vulnerable state? Yup, Tate & friends. Really, theyāve figured everything about how to make as many people as possible fall in their rabbithole to profit from them, and weāre doing nothing to stop them. Even Tate was arrested only because he did some heinous shit to people āworkingā with him AND boasted about that, otherwise heād still be around. We need some serious regulations on social media algorithms, but I doubt weāre ever gonna see those in our lifetimes considering whoās in power.
I remember when we looked at Chinaās authoritarian social controls like āholy shit thatās badā and now Iām sighing pretty hard. Iām sure there was a better line we could have walked, but itās too late for any of that. We are gonna have to crash and burn as a whole culture before we see the pendulum swing back in the other direction. Just poopin back and forth. Forever.