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recycling plastic releases even more microplastics. ban plastic
Okay, just fucking leave the litter in the street then. 🙄
yea this is a logical fallacy, because nowhere did I say this guy does something that is worse than littering. reducing plastic usage is the most effective way of combating plastic pollution and I would like to see anyone claim we dont use plastic redundantly because it is cheap and convenient.
I really would like to know how you came to that conclusion. The OP is from Germany and is collecting abandoned bottles in the street and there are closed loop recycling programs in place. You return the bottle to the store, you get your 25 cents back, the bottle gets crushed and recycled into a new one. That kind of does work. Multiuse bottles are better, but I really struggle to understand how “Picking up discarded plastic bottles” releases more microplastics than letting those bottles out in the environment where they will become 100% microplastic
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2772416623000803
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0269749124005694
This really seems like the kind of situation where you fix one crack and another one pops elsewhere.
Not to mention, car tyres are possibly also one of the highest contributers to microplastics so we might as well be fucked.
I think I read that no matter who you are and what you’ve done, only about 10% - 15% of all plastic you’ve recycled actually gets recycled. The vast majority ends up on barges being shipped overseas or to landfills.
This isn’t to say stop recycling, if it compiles plastic into places instead of just distributing across the globe, then maybe later when people get off their ass and realize we’re in trouble, they might make some kind of bacterial-world-ending-zombie-plague type solution for breaking down plastic waste, at least the plasti-zombie-plague will be isolated to particular regions and countries.
Not to mention, the production takes petroleum. It’s also not recyclable multiple times.
This is the way, get paid for cleaning pollution.
Nah, in Germany you’re not paid for cleaning anything. You aren’t getting any money: you are fined 25 cents (for some glass bottles it’s 15, for some 8) when you buy the drink in case you don’t recycle. You might get that money back if you bring the bottle back to the supermarket, they accept it, and the return machine is working at the time. It’s a scam.
That"s not a scam. It’s a solution. Take care of your Earth.
Unless the store is pocketing the money. I’m assuming the credit is going to a government program or non profit organization.
I’m assuming the credit is going to a government program or non profit organization.
Not really. It’s complicated.
Basically all of the money is being shuffled between importers/manufacturers, stores and consumers.
Germany has about 95-98% return rate for the bottles (mainly because it’s somewhat lucrative to collect them). So very little money is left over.
There’s a company called DPG that is responsible to make sure that no part of the system is profiting of it unfairly
Germany wikipedia (annoyingly only available in german) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfand_auf_Einweggetränkebehälter_in_Deutschland
All in all, it’s a net benefit. I remember the time before this system, and you had drink cans littered around everywhere. Ever since the system is in place, I can count the amount of littered cans (e.g. cans that are too crushed to be returned) on maybe one hand
It’s a deposit system that works as a deposit system. And it’s purpose is to decrease the amount of bottles that get thrown into the streets and that does totally work. Just compare how many bottles are lying around in Germany to other countries.
Government should increase the buy-back price even if it means increasing the initial costs. At least they’ll return it. I think glass and aluminium are still better than plastic, unless ofcourse, profit and comfort. Population is still the ultimate cause of all, humans don’t understand that Earth can’t handle it.
Reusable glass bottles have their own issues, especially emissions from logistics if they are transported for longer distances.
Cleaning reusable bottles is energy intensive and uses a lot of water and chemicals. Melting and recycling glass is certainly more resource intensive than doing the same with plastics.
The best solutions to reduce resource intensity is local production and consumers bringing their own containers, going for dried instead of canned when it comes to fruits, beans and the like…
The chances of first-worlders putting up with packaging and preserved food habits that are essentially post-collapse “The Last of Us” levels of mild inconvenience: about -100% if such a ratio is possible.
“Ya’ll telling me I gotta feed mah kids dried beans? How da fuck they gonna eat dried beans? they too crunchy!” will be the viral soundbite from a Kansas parking lot.
Capital won’t allow change until it can no longer bleed a dime in it’s present state. We’re living under a locust plague and we’ve called it the modern world.
Glass Bottles are way too heavy and fragile.
But refill stations where you can refill your metal bottle and pay per litre would be a nice idea.
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I like the ones that have a counter showing how many plastic bottles have been saved by refilling at the station
Here we get 3 cents for every bottle. I don’t think I’ll be buying a PS5 anytime soon.
Seriously, if you got a bunch for every four bottles around here it’d take a couple of years and a shoe change to find enough of them to fund a PS5
I’m fond of the Phand.
Nah. Fuck the Pfand system. I don’t like being fined for a crime I haven’t committed (not recycling the bottle) with the excuse of “you’ll get your fine back when you return the bottle”
All that work collecting garbage to buy garbage.
Ban plastic for consumables, glass and cardboard forever!!!
That’s great, now how?
Do you think if this message alone spread (it already has) that anyone is going to take it seriously? The top polluters and the ones deciding what our packaging is like are the most wealthy corporations on Earth and they are the ones doing the most climate damage, and the ones who control the narrative and our politics.
Do you think “ban plastics” will ever be a populist political talking point in these conditions? Do you think it would gain momentum?
Or are we looking at it wrong? What if more of us targeted the system that is sustaining climate destruction with an actual populist idea? What if we started wresting control and money away from the companies filling our sea with plastic?
Do you want to spread a message of lasting change? Start spreading “pro family, pro children” messages like the need for social help as millions become jobless as capital starts digesting itself in its current late-stage. You want to see plastics away? (No we’re never seeing an end to cardboard, that’s unrealistic to push for.) Then start advocating for Universal Basic Income and other measures that put control back in the hands of the people.
Glass bottles aren’t a free win. Glass is very heavy to transport and extremely energy-intensive to manufacture. It made sense back when people hardly drank any soda. It still makes sense for things like condiments (soy sauce, vinegar, etc) and alcoholic drinks but it doesn’t make any sense for everyday drinks like water or soda.
We should be investing in better municipal water treatment facilities so that tap water doesn’t taste awful. Where I live the tap water is horrible but I’ve visited places where the tap water tastes perfectly clean and pleasant. If we had universally tasty tap water then people would stop buying plastic water bottles.
As for soda, I could see glass bottles being excellent if we could bring consumption down to a reasonable level. Many people guzzle soda as if it were water which is both terrible for their health and the environment.
Where glass wins big is in reusability. We need to get people to refill/reuse their glass bottles rather than recycling them.
Yes, it’s just hard to do, especially for people without a car. Hauling a large number of heavy glass bottles to the grocery store on public transit is quite a burden!
Glass soda bottles just hit different™ I would pay extra if it’s an option
They do, but you’re not supposed to hit people with them.
Glass is a verb isn’t it? What else would you do with them.
average NCD Member lmao
Yes, but not the one I was initially thinking of. I am also British.
Here you can get them at most grocery stores. It’s also usually the standard for German Brands, it’s mostly Coca Cola Brands that are sold in Single-Use-Plastic
Not in Iran. Only some restaurants, mostly old school ones carry them now. They also take the bottle back, send it to the factory, where they are cleaned and filled again.
Err, the fact that you get a deposit back when returning the bottles means they’re most certainly NOT single use.
PET flasks are very easily recycled. Easier then glass. There is a whole industry built on it!
Here in NL we’ve had this system for as long as i can remember. (Im over 50)
Not disposable is what you mean I think, the pet bottles aren’t refilled so they actually are recycled unlike beer bottles which are reused and not single use (mehrweg in german). The term is a bit confusing because it is also used to describe stuff like plastic bags, cutlery and ‘paper’ cups (you bin those after using it once)
Cute little pet bottles. /j
You still get the micro plastic bonus tho
Err, wrong. Every Bottle in Germany has a deposit on them. 25ct for Single Use PET 15ct for Multi-Use PET and Glass Bottles
And Use refers to the amount of times they get refilled until the material gets recycled.
So…we say the same thing? The bottle or the materials get reused when there is a deposit?
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I’ve stopped drinking from plastic bottles completely. And glass bottled soda is so rare here that I buy it whenever I come across it.
Sadly my preferred brand of cider recently changed from glass bottles to plastic ones, so I’m looking around.
In case you didn’t know, I think you might like to know: In Germany they also do reusable PET and reusable glass.
“reusable” in really big quotation marks
Nah, there are a lot of glass and plastic bottles that do get reused a couple of times. You can oftentimes even spot a characteristic ring of scratch marks from the machines that process, clean and refill the bottles.
Typical „Mehrwegflaschen“ are
- Beer bottles (glass)
- Milk bottles (glass)
- Lemonade bottles (glass)
- Water bottles (glass and plastic)
- Coca-Cola/Fanta/Sprite bottles (glass and plastic)
- Yoghurt cups (glass)
There are multiple standardised types and sizes that are used by a multitude of brands. They are not recycled but reused. (Well, they do get recycled, once they are either broken or show heavy signs of use. The „Normbrunnenflasche“, the 0,7L standard bottle for water, for example, gets refilled about 100 times.)
And of course there is the „Pfand“ (deposit) system: Depending on the type of bottle, you usually pay a 8ct or 15ct deposit on the bottles. The system works pretty well.
Of course, there’s also a lot of one way bottles. Those usually have a 25ct deposit and are not reusable but get recycled instead. They’re usually also being brought back to the store, people want their 25ct back after all. (And yes, I know a lot of them aren’t actually recycled but end up at a landfill all the same).
And of course, there are also a lot of glass bottles that are not being reused and instead recycled by default like wine bottles or some non-standard types.
And yes, I know a lot of them aren’t actually recycled but end up at a landfill all the same
Really? Got a source on that? I know that we’re still not that good in recycling plastics in general, But last time I checked the quota of PET recycling was quite high.
Thanks to the deposit-return system, recycling rates for PET bottles in Germany are indeed very high. Over 97% actually (which is quite awesome). Still leaves a few percent that aren’t, which is still a lot of plastic but we’re way above average.
In the USA for example, only about a third of PET bottles get actually recycled. The rest heads to the landfill or the burner.
For the yellow bag in Germany btw. (our trash system for plastic and compound packaging, tin cans, aluminium foil, etc.), the recycling rate is about two thirds in total.
I mean, they get collected, washed, and reused. Not sure why the sarcasm about it?
Well, here in California we’ve decided that most stores are mandated to provide “reusable” plastic shopping bags (at a cost of $0.10 each) which are more durable and made of a thicker plastic.
I don’t know a single person that treats them as any less disposable than the thin plastic bags they replaced. There is little to no information or infrastructure supporting recycling them.
I’m just glad the stores around here give paper bags if you ask for them.
reusable plastic bags are perfect for small trash bags for little litter, the non reusable variant needs 2-3 to prevent leakage, paper just sucks.
Why do you mean? Am I missing some context? Or do you think I’m conflating recyclable with reusable?
They actually do have re-use programs where bottles are cleaned and refilled. Unfortunately they also have single use, that are only recycled, I’m not trying to hide that. But the re-use program seems good to me. I wish we had it in Switzerland.
Some PET bottles are reusable in Germany, and the scuff marks are a very clear sign some of these bottles have been used a good dozen times.
It’s not all bottles though, many will be crushed and recycled (I hope).
you shouldnt cause recycling is a scam and wastes energy and material. The guilt was pushed upon the consumer by the plastic industry.
Real solution would be regulations on what materials are allowed for packaging, and making clear guidelines how a thing should be packaged so you dont get 20 fucking boxes filled with plastic bags and peanuts and foam for a pet rock.
Du you have any sources on the claim that recycling is a scam?
Dude, >98% of the Bottles in Germany get recycled, and thanks to the deposit system they get pure PET out of it which is well recyclable.
Plastic pollution is a big problem. PET Bottles in Western Europe aren’t a part of it. Other plastics are
Dude, why are you spreading bullshit when it’s quite obvious you have no clue?
There is no such thing as an indefinitely recyclable plastic. The best kind can only be recycled a few times.
Reusable is different than recyclable. They mentioned reusable plastic as in you make it out of a thicker material and only wash it in between uses so that by the time it’s actually damaged enough to be recycled it’s been used many times
You can do that if you want to eat a lot of microplastics
You’re constantly moving Goalposts. Point is, “Mehrweg”-Bottles in Germany are getting refilled, and they are more environmentally friendly than the single use ones. The PET-Multiuse even more so because they have smaller transport emissions thanks to the smaller weight
That’s not where all our microplastics are coming from, the much bigger concern is driving cars which leaches a bunch of microplastics from the tires that end up in our waterways. By reusing the plastics you have less deliveries so less microplastics in your local water supply
I believe that glass is more of a solution than a problem. Compared to plastic, it is more durable, its production process has less impact on the environment and not to mention that in the case of beverages, returnable glass packaging is better in several aspects
There have been extensive studies on that topic, that showed that PET-bottles are more sustainable and environment friendly than glass bottles and have less impact on the environmdnt. Glass bottles use a lot more energy to produce and transport than PET bottles, and the oil you save by using PET instead of glass is more than enough to produce the PET you need. You also save sand, potash, limestone, soda and a ton of CO2.
If renewables would become the prime source of energy for glass production and transportation, this conclusion might change, and if the effects of microplastics and ocean pollution are considered it might change as well.
Regarding sources, there is an abundance of them in German and quite a few in English. I’ll leave this one as an example.
Multi-use glass is were it’s at. Producing glass is an energy intense process, the more you use it the bettet it gets. Single use glass packaging is a crime. (Same goes for plastics multi-use>single-use)
glass is theoretically more sustainable, while its production does not involve the same kind of problems as plastic it is a lot more energy intensive so without proper energy infrastructure it is trading plastic pollution for carbon emissions, also heavier contributing to transport costs. With proper infrastructure for reusing the bottles the energy impact of production can be mitigated significantly. and even without proper reusage infrastructure the options for the glass is 1. resmelted into new glass 2. landfill->glass shards quickly become essentially just sand 3. environment where it also becomes sand
so while even without proper infrastructure the pollutans are essentially just emissions if properly treated just co2 (though modern kilns can be electric arc reducing emissions just to that of the country’s electricity infrastructure) and gravel. In contrast plastic has lower production emissions but the waste in environment is to put it lightly quite a bit more harmful than gravel and the effects are still not fully understood especially ones of microplastics
Glas is not used anymore because it’s much heavier (= more expensive when freight is charged by weight) and breaks when you drop the palett.
Cellophane, jute, wood and metal are good as well
and use what instead?
I literally answered it lmao
I read it as “ban glass and cardboard as well”
What did people use before plastic? Glass and cardboard!
Glass Recycling costs way more energy than plastic recycling.
But in Germany we reuse bottles too, probably the most effective.
What about cardboard?
You cannot use cardboard for liquids. There are containers that have a cardboard exterior – just tear them, and you’ll find out they are made out of a sandwich material with an interior layer of plastic, meddle layer of aluminium and exterior cardboard. almist unrecyclable.
I believe it uses a lot of water and isn’t really safe for food consumption, and for preserving food
Is there nothing better for the environment than plastic at least?
Yes it’s called Tap Water and refilling your own bottle
Short distribution channels would be the best
Else, fruits and food that don’t really need packaging because they have a natural bacteria barrier, or something similar
But yea I don’t see any good sanitary alternative. Since we’re bound to get microplastics I guess reusable containers that are only washed and reused a couple of times would be beneficial, at the cost of a little more microplastics.
Some kind of paper to a certain extend for some things, but yea, nothing is as good as plastic :(
Don’t use plastic where you don’t need to. And then maybe use cardboard+thin plastic for the rest: less recyclable, but less plastic 🤔. Depends on the route you want to choose: less pollution or less plastic waste
I read it as “ban glass and cardboard as well”
Unfortunately they also pollute quite a bit, and cardboard isn’t really safe for consumption. How do you store meat for example? Metal cans are expensive, and glass is expensive, fragile and heavy, making it a worse option, as weight has strong impacts.
I was actually just thinking of bottles, because that’s what the op is about. So like just for beverages. I already get almost all of my beverages in cardboard, so it’s actually possible.
There are no cardboard container for liquids — cardboard soaks and dissolves in water. What you are likely refering to is tetrapak, a compound material made of plastic, aluminium and cardboard. I think I’ve seen packages using only plastic coated cardboard without aluminium as well. You can test it yourself: just rip it apart and you can examine the layers of the compound material.
I don’t know about the impact of production — paper production still destroys woods, needs lots of water and energy, aluminium needs tons of energy. Probably better than glass and worse than PET?
Transportationwise they are as good as PET, probably better.
Regarding recycling they are a nightmare, it’s almost impossible, because you have to separate the three layers which are designed to stick together. Tetrapak claims they are recycling them, but this technique is fairly new and I’ve got no idea how well it works and how sustainable it is.
Beverage in cardbord? It’s still just plastic on top of it
I thought at least some of it was wax… but what did people drink out of before plastic was invented?? I’m not saying we have to regress technologically, but surely this is a solved problem.
Wax is mostly made from oil too
People would make their own beverages (mostly beer and wine, as alcohol was the only preservant working) and use barrels to store them and mugs to drink them. After the development of pasteurization they would pasteurize juice and keep it in glass bottles. And they would share with neighbours, family and friends.
Of course there were breweries and wineries, too, they would sell their stuff mostly in barrels to pubs, and people would buy their beer and wine at the pub if they couldn’t make their own. In our area it was a common task for children to get a mug of beer for dad from the pub until the 50s, I think.
Pre-fabricated, non-alcoholic, bottled beverages are a modern luxury item we all got used to as normal.
Glass, stainless steel I guess.
Use a water bottle in stainless steel: safe to drink from and to wash, not really heavy, and keeps the temperature. Stainless steel is for reusable containers, but I’m not sure you can recycle it easily and efficiently. It’s also a bit expensive.
Glass is infinitely recyclable but it needs a lot of energy to be produced and recycled (you need to heat it a lot), is fragile, relatively expensive, and a lot is needed to make a good container, so it gets heavy, which might outweigh the positives sides it has.
You get 25c?? We only get 15c, not worth the PS level effort.
You don’t get anything: you pay 25 cents (for some glass bottles it’s 15, for some 8) when you buy the drink and you might get your own money back if you bring it to the supermarket, they accept it, and the machine is working at the time. It’s a scam.
In ireland its 15c for small bottles, and 25c for large ones.
Here in Arkansas, I don’t know any “trash” that you can pick up for a deposit. I think when I was a small child in the 80s you could do glass bottles, but when plastic came in that ended. As a teen, and up to maybe a decade ago, you could get paid for aluminum scrap (by weight), but both of the metal recycling places in my county (Polk) do not pay for aluminum anymore (they will accept it, but not pay for it).
We get 5-10. And were one of the most expensive countries to live in.
Which country is that?
You also pay the amount, it’s a deposit.
Yes but it makes it a terrible side hustle for the poorest of us and when the return on taking away the bottles is not worth the effort it defeats the whole point
We don’t get them ;)
At max that’s 5.95 an hour or at minimum 3.96 an hour. Kinda shitty pay, and 60% of what was recycled was just burned anyway. That numbers for Germany BTW where it’s the highest in the world. On average less than 9 percent gets to be new plastic worldwide.
The weight loss is good to see though. Excersize is good for your body and spirit
Anyway next I’m off to tell some kids Santa isn’t real and that the tooth fairy is just their already poor parents giving them money to have them believe there’s magic in this world preserving their sense of wonder a little while longer.
If they’re already working a full time job and just need the little extra money to get buy something nice for themselves, the pay is kinda irrelevant. Far simpler than on-boarding for a part time job you’ll only need for 3 weeks.
Oh boy, here I go ranting against misinformation about recycling again.
Your claim that 60% of these bottles will be burned is false. The recycling quota for single-use plastic bottles in Germany is 97.6% (2023; source).
60% was the quota of all non-recycled plastic packaging material combined, back in 2018. This quota has further decreased since, and is now at about 30% (2023, source), so almost 70% of all plastic packaging in Germany is recycled. It’s still not perfect, but far, far better than just burning everything.
Recycling isn’t an easy and cheap process, but it can definitely work and be steadily improved, if it’s properly implemented. I’m so tired of this dumb suggestion, that recycling is bad because it’s not perfect (or, in the case of the US, full of corruption). Every bit of plastic that isn’t polluting the environment is a win. And recycling is definitely helping with that. As opposed to propagating false information on the internet.
So separating my plastics when I bring them to the Wertstoffhof actually makes sense? I never bothered because I’ve always been told it gets all thrown together anyway.
People’s main gripe with it is that a huge percentage of plastic has traditionally just been separated and then would either still end up in a landfill or sent to China or wherever to recycle. I don’t know however how much of a case that is still.
China has not been taking our trash for quire a while now.
Do they still count energetic recycling (aka burning in a power plant) as recycling?
According to the second source „energy recovery“ isn‘t included in this statistic.
So — though using collected plastic as fuel feels sort of cheating — the percentage of plastic that is put to any use after use is even higher.
If I understand that article correctly, this should be the case, yes. Unfortunately I’m unable to find any official statistics on that matter.
You’re forgetting the person is also making the streets a cleaner place, having fun ( I enjoy picking litter), great for mental health, and choose your own hours.
That’s complete Bullshit. PET which is what these bottles are made of has a recycling quote of 98% and over half of the PET used in the production of new bottles is coming from recycled bottles
As the other commenter said, the bottles actually get recycled; if they weren’t they wouldn’t have a system where they pay for the return. And it doesn’t make sense to count it as “pay”, as in compare to a normal job pay, cause it’s not. Dude is walking around and cleaning the environment, gets free PS5 out of it.
Doing God’s work
That lazy fucker should come down more often and to their own work.
Pfand sollte in mehr Ländern eingeführt werden
Meine rumänische Arbeitskollegin hat mir gestern erzählt es sei in Rumänien eingeführt worden. Es gab wohl Schlangen bei der Abgabe weil alle es ausprobieren wollten :-)
mir war nicht bekannt dass Deutschland das Pfand-Modell exportiert hat. Sehr cool zu wissen dass andere Länder es übernehmen
Or you could have worked for a couple of days but yea, that’s nice I guess
Maybe they are working? Maybe they are disabled? Who knows but don’t gotta be a dick about it.
I’m just saying that doesn’t really sound efficient, I’m not trying to be a dick
Not everything in life needs to be financially efficient.
I know
Maybe they do work and barely get by and so they did this part time each day for extra spending money.
Yeah I work and I don’t have money for a PS5 all willy nilly
