On lemmy.world I posted a comment on how liberals use ‘tankie’ as an invective to shut down dialogue and received tons of hateful replies. I tried to respond in a rational way to each. Someone’s said ‘get educated’ I responded ‘Im reading Norman Finkelstein’s I’ll burn that bridge when I get there’ and tried to keep it civil.

They deleted every comment I made and banned me. Proving my point, they just want to shut down dialogue. Freedom of speech doesn’t existing in those ‘totalitarian’ countries right? But in our ‘enlightened’ western countries we just delete you.

    • Beat_da_Rich@lemmygrad.ml
      1·
      1 year ago

      “These gentlemen think that when they have changed the names of things they have changed the things themselves. This is how these profound thinkers mock at the whole world”

      My favorite Engels tweet.

      • Blake [he/him]@feddit.uk
        0·
        1 year ago

        No one should control the state because there shouldn’t be a state. If there is a state then there’s oppression.

        • IntoDaLagoon@lemmygrad.ml
          0·
          1 year ago

          As an ML I actually agree with you, the state is a weapon and i would like to see it one day outlive it’s usefulness and wither so that communism can be achieved. However, it’s a weapon that you absolutely cannot discard until capitalism has been destroyed, and until then, unilateral disarmament is guaranteed suicide for a revolutionary movement.

          • spacedout@lemmy.ml
            0·
            1 year ago

            guaranteed suicide

            As is blind faith in a revolutionary movement’s ability to wield such a weapon in the interest of the proletariat and towards communism. Seems like a lot of people in this thread are forgetting Mao’s critique of the USSR.

            "The revisionist Khrushchov clique abolish the dictatorship of the proletariat behind the camouflage of the “state of the whole people”, change the proletarian character of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union behind the camouflage of the “party of the entire people” and pave the way for the restoration of capitalism behind that of “full-scale communist construction”. - Mao - marxists.org

            But is this not equally true for China today?

      • spacedout@lemmy.ml
        01·
        1 year ago

        Just because a state brands itself socialist doesn’t say anything about the level of democracy or workers’ control of it.

          • spacedout@lemmy.ml
            01·
            1 year ago

            Well IMHO both USSR and China shows how gaining workers control and keeping it, or moreso making significant headway towards communism, is just much more complicated. Representative worker ownership of the means of production through the state doesn’t have a compelling track record. I think it’s dishonest, reactionary and anti intellectual to laugh off arguments like that of comrade spood from the screenshot above.

            Edit: checked out my claim on calorie intake and discovered it was dubious. Removed, but letting the main argument stay.

            • ☭ 𝗚𝗿𝗮𝗶𝗻𝗘𝗮𝘁𝗲𝗿 ☭@lemmygrad.ml
              1·
              1 year ago

              The USSR was eventually compromised, so it technically failed in that sense, but how is China an example of failing to retain worker control? If you’re claiming that capitalists control China’s government, I’d challenge you to provide some evidence

              • spacedout@lemmy.ml
                01·
                1 year ago

                Lack of press freedom, organization freedom, social credit system, great firewall of China, over 2000 work hours pr year (France has 1500), severely low scores in democracy rankings. This doesn’t smell much like worker control, more like authoritarianism. But then again, I’m very much from the West. Happy to be educated on my shortcomings in understanding 👍

                • ☭ 𝗚𝗿𝗮𝗶𝗻𝗘𝗮𝘁𝗲𝗿 ☭@lemmygrad.ml
                  1·
                  1 year ago

                  Lack of press freedom

                  Compared to what country? What exactly are workers not allowed to say or write in China that is allowed in the West?

                  [Lack of] organization freedom

                  Compared to what country? There are hundreds of protests every day across China

                  social credit system

                  You mean the “system” that’s been debunked many times by various Western capitalist media outlets?

                  great firewall of China

                  Maintaining Internet sovereignty from the imperial core and having workers in control of the government are not mutually exclusive

                  over 2000 work hours pr year

                  Citation needed

                  severely low scores in democracy rankings

                  Whose rankings, and why do you consider them relevant?

                  • spacedout@lemmy.ml
                    01·
                    1 year ago

                    The burden of proof is on you, since you are making extraordinary claims. No matter, here:

                    https://rsf.org/en/ranking china nr 173

                    https://www.ilo.org/dyn/normlex/en/f?p=1000:50002:0::NO:50002:P50002_COMPLAINT_TEXT_ID:4341007 one of many cases. Are you allowed to start a union in China? Doesn’t seem like it.

                    https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs181/projects/2010-11/FreedomOfInformationChina/great-firewall-technical-perspective/index.html Re firewall - information blockade and surveillance != Worker control nor sovereign internet.

                    https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/9049298 One of thousands scholarly articles on this. Next youre gonna tell me IEEE is revisionist?

                    https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours 2200 working hours pr year is ridiculous!

                    You’re not really convincing me that China is a good example of worker control. Let me ask you something:

                    • What evidence or examples can you provide to support your claim that workers exert significant control over the Chinese state? Are there specific policies, decisions, or instances where workers’ influence is evident?
                    • How do you reconcile the lack of press freedom and restrictions on organizing independent labor movements with the assertion that workers have control? Do you believe these limitations are inconsequential or have alternative explanations?
                    • How would you explain the extensive power and authority of the Chinese Communist Party within the political system, considering your claim that workers are in control? What role does the Party play in shaping policy decisions and governance?
                    • Can you elaborate on the role of other influential actors, such as the government bureaucracy, state-owned enterprises, and the military, in the Chinese state? How do these entities interact with workers in terms of decision-making and power dynamics?
                    • Are there any studies, scholarly research, or analyses that specifically support the idea that workers hold significant control over the Chinese state? What are the methodologies and findings of these studies?
                    • How would you account for China’s low rankings in democracy and freedom assessments conducted by international organizations? How do these rankings align with your assertion of workers’ control over the state?
                    • What are your thoughts on the social credit system, the Great Firewall of China, and other control mechanisms employed by the government? How do these mechanisms affect workers’ ability to influence state policies and decisions?