Probably because 95% oft all people in the medieval age and prior (where this specific depiction of portrait-jesus emerged) have never seen a black person all their life - including artists. Can’t blame people for drawing people as they know them.
Because many haven’t? It’s not like people in medieval europe could take a quick trip with ryanair from tel aviv to berlin lmao. Black people in central europe were rare enough that many people have never seen one in their life. Most of them were around the borders of todays southern europe.
I can already tell you’re not at all well versed in this topic. Have you heard of a concept called trade mate? Did you know that before the Roman empire even existed a network of trade and safe passage was made that could traverse from China to the furthest western point of Europe including India, the steppes and African trade (east coast). Also you keep going back to 'black people" like wtf is this discount American eugenics take. Bro the religion is middle eastern, people knew what they looked like, there’s thing thing called art and sculptures which help those who never seem one understand what they look like. But none of this even matters you turned into a race thing, it was a cultural shift, the 14th century did a white jesus start coming up in some obscure art and didn’t really take off till the 20th century (white jesus)
Just another fat L, Tel Aviv wasn’t a thing back then, tf you choose that awful fucking city full of earth’s worst people. call it by it’s real name. Jaffa
it was a cultural shift, the 14th century did a white jesus start coming up in some obscure art and didn’t really take off till the 20th century (white jesus)
This is fundamentally incorrect, and I can prove it - better yet, someone else already has in these comments.
Yes. That’s why I have never said that nobody has ever seen one. Just that it’s a rare occasion.
Also you keep going back to 'black people" like wtf is this discount American eugenics take … But none of this even matters you turned into a race thing
Because the initial post I responded to was literally “Why he white tho”. I didn’t start the war.
Bro the religion is middle eastern
Catholicism is not middle eastern
the 14th century did a white jesus start coming up in some obscure art and didn’t really take off till the 20th century
Factually untrue - white jesus has already been a thing in the 4th - 6th century - even tho a lot less common. However, agreed that most depictions of white jesus are from that time - which does not change my point at all. They had no way to quickly travel during the renaissance.
Tel Aviv wasn’t a thing back then
No really? Crazy. Do you think ryanair didn’t exist back then either? :o
It’s almost as if I tried to make funny comparison, not a factual argument.
I can already tell you’re not at all well versed in this topic
Classic lemmy.ml L take. I swear you guys are so tiring.
Found this on Reddit a great write up on someone telling someone equally as unqualified as you on the topic in words Far cleaner than mine. Go have a read without a Hentai break if you can
"
It’s only in recent years that he’s been consistently portrayed as a white man by Western (particularly American) Christians.
I’m sorry, but this claim of /u/best_of_badgers is just not true. They’ve cherry-picked individual examples without any sense of their historical context and skipped an entire millennium of western Europe. A millennium in which, if David Nirenberg is correct, Christian icongraphy was a major vehicle for working out concepts of racial difference before “race.”
Medieval European (and Middle Eastern, for that matter) scholars inherited from antiquity the idea that climate affects the development of those native to the region–this will play an important role in the evolution of scientific racism into the early 20th century. The closer to the equator, the hotter the temperature–the angier, earthier, and darker-skinned people got. Centuries before “black” and “white” accrued their modern American meanings, medieval Latin writers were describing and illuminators were painting white and black people. There are a few cases, like the famous Spanish manuscript known as the Book of Games, where the depictions seem to mirror the diversity of the painters’ experience to some extent: the illuminations feature dark-skinned and light-skinned Saracen men, and light-skinned Christian and Saracen women alike (the Christian men are all light-skinned). But especially when depicting situations of Christians vs. Saracens, as in illustrations to the Song of Roland, the Saracens are uniformly dark-skinned and the Christians light-skinned. The association of Christians as white and Muslims as black persists in literary descriptions. In medieval romance, characters with one Christian and one Saracen parent are even described as black and white spotted. Or when a Saracen character converts to Christianity, their skin color physically changes from black to white.
So European artists were well aware that native residents of more southern lands tended to have darker skin. And yet western European medieval Jesus is white. It’s 14th century mystic Birgitta of Sweden who gives us, through her visions, the tradition of Mary as not just white but blonde. Her Jesus, too, shines with white light.
I want to highlight a second iconographical development over the later Middle Ages. Iconography is all about the use of visual shorthand to convey meaning. In earlier art, into the high Middle Ages, depictions of Jews are recognizable above all by their hats, sometimes also by their clothing. But over the later M.A., Jews start to take on what we now see as “stereotypically” Jewish features (stereotypically thanks to Christian-incubated iconography), primarily darker features and a hooked nose.
Medieval Christians knew Jesus was Jewish. Some theologians and pastors occasionally made a big deal out of it (typically in an anti-Jewish context). Do medieval illuminations and woodcuts of Jesus and Mary give them the stereotypical hooked nose?
No, they bestow that feature on demons and the devil.
Depictions of Jesus are iconographical: they represent concrete theological and often political claims. In western medieval art, the depiction of Jesus as “like us” reigned supreme and served to demarcate, isolate, and condemn everyone else.
"
So bud when you showing me that 6th century white jesus?
Black isn’t a race, could you not figure that out?
Catholicism comes from Christianity comes from an event in middle east and is a successor to Judaism which again is from the middle east, could you not figure that out?
Show me 6th century white jesus? This should be interesting I already checked 😂
Why is it always the losers who cry about weird things like instance, make the biggest stink always the least educated people. The fuck you get your knowledge from? Intensive anime watching?
I mean, yes, black people were present but in very small numbers, and their presence was rare enough that they often stood out significantly in the historical record. The most were probably around the southern borders of todays europe, like spain, italy and greece, but black people in todays germany, poland or even further up north were an absolute rarity. Even in southern europe, black people were rare enough that many people only saw a handful of them in their lifetime.
I don’t know polish so idk what to look for, but I’m very certain I’d find some white jesus art from that timeframe from a polish artist.
Please fuck off, you lemmy.ml people are fucking uninformed beyond imagination but pretend you know everything. You are so obnoxious. Get out of my feed.
Awww you gonna cry you massive baby, somebody goes against you and start crying .ml user you Virgin. I chose this instance by random but my god do I love how weird losers on the internet get so attached to weird meaningless things.
That’s the 15th century so Germany didn’t make the white jesus as you said 6th century right? Please cry more.
Where is is this 6th century white jesus btw?
I posted you a fucking link to 6th century white jesus german art you fucking moron. My god, you’re genuinely a fucking fruitless discussion partner. Go fuck off now, cheerio.
Running off like a little removed ay, come on bro 6TH CENTURY WHITE JESUS. Where is it then lmfaooooo
Average hardcore high school drop out Lemmy user in his mom’s basement moment
That’s 15 century from Germany, are you stupid as fuck? Hes also clearly Jewish and showing showing characteristics as medieval Europe knew he was a Jew. Where is white jesus then?
Probably because 95% oft all people in the medieval age and prior (where this specific depiction of portrait-jesus emerged) have never seen a black person all their life - including artists. Can’t blame people for drawing people as they know them.
They’ve seen Arabs and Semites haven’t they… The land where jesus is from. Why you talking like jesus is from the heart of Africa
Because many haven’t? It’s not like people in medieval europe could take a quick trip with ryanair from tel aviv to berlin lmao. Black people in central europe were rare enough that many people have never seen one in their life. Most of them were around the borders of todays southern europe.
I can already tell you’re not at all well versed in this topic. Have you heard of a concept called trade mate? Did you know that before the Roman empire even existed a network of trade and safe passage was made that could traverse from China to the furthest western point of Europe including India, the steppes and African trade (east coast). Also you keep going back to 'black people" like wtf is this discount American eugenics take. Bro the religion is middle eastern, people knew what they looked like, there’s thing thing called art and sculptures which help those who never seem one understand what they look like. But none of this even matters you turned into a race thing, it was a cultural shift, the 14th century did a white jesus start coming up in some obscure art and didn’t really take off till the 20th century (white jesus) Just another fat L, Tel Aviv wasn’t a thing back then, tf you choose that awful fucking city full of earth’s worst people. call it by it’s real name. Jaffa
This is fundamentally incorrect, and I can prove it - better yet, someone else already has in these comments.
Yes. That’s why I have never said that nobody has ever seen one. Just that it’s a rare occasion.
Because the initial post I responded to was literally “Why he white tho”. I didn’t start the war.
Catholicism is not middle eastern
Factually untrue - white jesus has already been a thing in the 4th - 6th century - even tho a lot less common. However, agreed that most depictions of white jesus are from that time - which does not change my point at all. They had no way to quickly travel during the renaissance.
No really? Crazy. Do you think ryanair didn’t exist back then either? :o
It’s almost as if I tried to make funny comparison, not a factual argument.
Classic lemmy.ml L take. I swear you guys are so tiring.
Found this on Reddit a great write up on someone telling someone equally as unqualified as you on the topic in words Far cleaner than mine. Go have a read without a Hentai break if you can
"
I’m sorry, but this claim of /u/best_of_badgers is just not true. They’ve cherry-picked individual examples without any sense of their historical context and skipped an entire millennium of western Europe. A millennium in which, if David Nirenberg is correct, Christian icongraphy was a major vehicle for working out concepts of racial difference before “race.”
Medieval European (and Middle Eastern, for that matter) scholars inherited from antiquity the idea that climate affects the development of those native to the region–this will play an important role in the evolution of scientific racism into the early 20th century. The closer to the equator, the hotter the temperature–the angier, earthier, and darker-skinned people got. Centuries before “black” and “white” accrued their modern American meanings, medieval Latin writers were describing and illuminators were painting white and black people. There are a few cases, like the famous Spanish manuscript known as the Book of Games, where the depictions seem to mirror the diversity of the painters’ experience to some extent: the illuminations feature dark-skinned and light-skinned Saracen men, and light-skinned Christian and Saracen women alike (the Christian men are all light-skinned). But especially when depicting situations of Christians vs. Saracens, as in illustrations to the Song of Roland, the Saracens are uniformly dark-skinned and the Christians light-skinned. The association of Christians as white and Muslims as black persists in literary descriptions. In medieval romance, characters with one Christian and one Saracen parent are even described as black and white spotted. Or when a Saracen character converts to Christianity, their skin color physically changes from black to white.
So European artists were well aware that native residents of more southern lands tended to have darker skin. And yet western European medieval Jesus is white. It’s 14th century mystic Birgitta of Sweden who gives us, through her visions, the tradition of Mary as not just white but blonde. Her Jesus, too, shines with white light.
I want to highlight a second iconographical development over the later Middle Ages. Iconography is all about the use of visual shorthand to convey meaning. In earlier art, into the high Middle Ages, depictions of Jews are recognizable above all by their hats, sometimes also by their clothing. But over the later M.A., Jews start to take on what we now see as “stereotypically” Jewish features (stereotypically thanks to Christian-incubated iconography), primarily darker features and a hooked nose.
Medieval Christians knew Jesus was Jewish. Some theologians and pastors occasionally made a big deal out of it (typically in an anti-Jewish context). Do medieval illuminations and woodcuts of Jesus and Mary give them the stereotypical hooked nose?
No, they bestow that feature on demons and the devil.
Depictions of Jesus are iconographical: they represent concrete theological and often political claims. In western medieval art, the depiction of Jesus as “like us” reigned supreme and served to demarcate, isolate, and condemn everyone else. "
So bud when you showing me that 6th century white jesus?
Black isn’t a race, could you not figure that out?
Catholicism comes from Christianity comes from an event in middle east and is a successor to Judaism which again is from the middle east, could you not figure that out?
Show me 6th century white jesus? This should be interesting I already checked 😂
Why is it always the losers who cry about weird things like instance, make the biggest stink always the least educated people. The fuck you get your knowledge from? Intensive anime watching?
Nah, Europe had black people.
I mean, yes, black people were present but in very small numbers, and their presence was rare enough that they often stood out significantly in the historical record. The most were probably around the southern borders of todays europe, like spain, italy and greece, but black people in todays germany, poland or even further up north were an absolute rarity. Even in southern europe, black people were rare enough that many people only saw a handful of them in their lifetime.
Germany nor Poland made the white jesus, your bringing up an entirely moot point
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmerzensmann
German art of jesus.
I don’t know polish so idk what to look for, but I’m very certain I’d find some white jesus art from that timeframe from a polish artist.
Please fuck off, you lemmy.ml people are fucking uninformed beyond imagination but pretend you know everything. You are so obnoxious. Get out of my feed.
Awww you gonna cry you massive baby, somebody goes against you and start crying .ml user you Virgin. I chose this instance by random but my god do I love how weird losers on the internet get so attached to weird meaningless things.
That’s the 15th century so Germany didn’t make the white jesus as you said 6th century right? Please cry more. Where is is this 6th century white jesus btw?
I posted you a fucking link to 6th century white jesus german art you fucking moron. My god, you’re genuinely a fucking fruitless discussion partner. Go fuck off now, cheerio.
Running off like a little removed ay, come on bro 6TH CENTURY WHITE JESUS. Where is it then lmfaooooo Average hardcore high school drop out Lemmy user in his mom’s basement moment
That’s 15 century from Germany, are you stupid as fuck? Hes also clearly Jewish and showing showing characteristics as medieval Europe knew he was a Jew. Where is white jesus then?
Many people only saw a hundred people in their lifetime. Most people were farmers. There were no trains or TV then.
Those people weren’t the ones painting paintings and writing stories
Yeah, those people saw plenty of black people
Yeah, but these were painted in Italy.
They’ve barely got any black people even now.
Yeah the Moors controlled the Iberian peninsula for nearly 800 years from 711-1492.
The moors were mostly Arabs and Berbers, though.
Yes, and Jesus was from the middle east, so the people of europe would not be unaware of what people from there might look like.