Don’t believe nazi propaganda about those things. They were largely inefficient and disorganized, they just predated others to fuel their goals. It’s one of the economic reasons for waging war on everyone: once you use up your local stolen wealth, you gotta raid other people’s. Nazi organizational structures were famously broken, with different redundant levels of political control pitted against each other, in line with social darwinist ideas.
And by far not all Nazis were true believers. Tons were “merely” playing along, because they thought they’d get something out of it. They often did, with the wealth of previously Jewish owned (and other) companies being handed to people close to the leadership.
You ever read a comic book with characters with big blocky fists and feet? You ever notice how the comic book villains in those stories were completely incompetent and SUPER weird? Yeah that’s because Jack Kirby, a Jewish man from NYC was a forward scout during WWII and saw the nazis for who they were first hand. He spent a career trying to communicate to the world the horrors of what he saw: these weird dumbasses were somehow able to kill 6M of his brothers and sisters simply by doing it.
He also portrayed his Jewish-coded characters such as The Thing as being deeply emotionally connected to the people around them and invested in social causes because
That was his own personal understanding of his Jewish faith
Something very disturbing happened after WWII. A particular set of violent weirdos like the ones he’d seen in France and Germany came to define what Judaism was to the world at large (I’m talking about Zionists right now). He hoped to reach young boys reading his comics and instill in them that this was not the way, and that the way was for them to find allies and coalitions with similar ideals to them without establishing a hierarchy of racial classes
None of the way silver and bronze age comics depict violent weirdos is an accident. Comic Books as an art form has its roots in a mix of street art and war-time propaganda. The weird part (or perhaps the beautiful part) is that across the globe this is true. Spanish Comics have their own look and feel influenced by that Iberian street art has its own look and feel. Same with Japanese comics, Latin American comics, comic books from people outside of NYC. I could go on. But there’s this… Incredible force of… Human nature where when we gather together we tell stories and spread messages to each other. Comic Books are a low art, and they’re often seen as being for kids, but their creators don’t see being low art as being lesser art. A lot of them have high art training and have seen what the high art world values and have rejected that.
And like… There are some comic books out there that have TRULY incredible things to say about the world, history, and humanity. My very favorite, One Piece, is super accessible, too, written and conceived to communicate to 10 year olds that resistance to fascism is rooted in the following: environmental protections, comedy, and giving nazis a good old fashioned punching. Maus is a biographical examination of the experience of a holocaust survival. Monster is about the traumas of the cold-war era for people “protected” by the mass control mechanisms established by the Soviet Union and United States. Footnotes in Gaza is an expose of the long running genocide in Gaza that is currently intensifying into total elimination. V for Vendetta explores what it means to resist fascism. Saga is… Jesus what do I even say about Saga. Saga is… An exploration of… Everything. It takes a deep close up look at what it feels like to try to survive in a total system of torture while maintaining a normal relationship (hint hint: it’s messy). Too often we think of war as being a top level thing between groups when those groups are made up of individuals experiencing daily personal tragedies. Saga addresses that. Which means there’s a mass scale war and interpersonal drama and neither draws focus from the other, but instead places both into stark relief about what’s going on.
New paragraph because I’m not done saying there’s comics out there that y’all should check out. Obviously there’s Watchmen, the examination of American fascism and its downsides. Actually I guess that’s the last one. But like… I hope this makes an impression on someone. Comic Book artists aren’t just trying to make a buck drawing doodles. A lot of them could make more money selling their work to high art assholes, but they choose to share their work with you and inspire you into being a better more complete person. And the accessibility and relationship between Comic Books and Street art is also an invitation. If you have a message to promote to the world, there’s a place for you in the arts, even if your art isn’t refined enough for the high art assholes. Still you can make something that connects with someone.
If you really pay attention, too, to the street art in your community, you can start to notice that street artists are having an asynchronous conversation with eachother. One will tag something and include a message with a tag, and then another street artist will tag something nearby with a message that’s related or in response. And when you see street art covering up other street art? That’s a dire message. The second artist is telling the first “I don’t just disagree with you. I think you should shut the fuck up and stay out of the streets”
And comic books are always having this conversation back with the streets, too. That’s part of what’s so incredible about the Spider-Verse films. They’re the first super hero films that engage with that the intersection of activism, art, and fantasy is where superheros come from. Every Spider-Man in those films is an artist of some variety and Spider-Punk (Hobie) is an EXPLICIT demonstration of exactly how far this can go. His activism and art aren’t an undercurrent or a side hustle for his spider-man. They’re an explicit aspect of his “heroism” (he’s not a hero because calling yourself a hero makes you a self mythologizing autocrat (by the way Luffy in One Piece says the exact same thing))
Hmm, honestly, I feel like that isn’t necessarily the case and often connected to the audience, especially if such a comment is offtopic.
Personally I have felt that on Lemmy effort and care are very much appreciated. But there is a breaking point in regards to the insightfulness and the length of the comment. Like there needs to be at least X amount of new and interestimg information per paragraph.
Hey its me the internet, SHAME ON YOU for writing such a thoughtful comment.
You know, it isn’t easy being me, I somehow have access to all the information on earth and yet I leave all the smart kind people in the world with sad surprised pikachu expressions on their faces!
What to do!
Then someone like you comes along with the nerve to write a cool comment and like bam all of a sudden the whole dead internet theory of corporate control over the media seems like a bunch of powerful people giving up their power to control the commons in an a hilarious strategic miscalculation that assumed killing the lights wouldn’t make the person with the crank up flashlight the most popular person in the room.
How DARE you. Whatever you do don’t keep writing really interesting and cool comments like this and definitely don’t link to more interesting sources and articles people can read if they find it interesting.
The Steranko History of Comics is to me the capstone of the Golden Age of Comics. Not that it was contemporary to it, it came out towards the end or after the silver age of comics, but I think that retrospective look back at the Golden Age is what makes it so important to understanding the golden age. Contemporaries in the Golden Age couldn’t have known what the totality of their influences on the world would be. They were just part of a movement, and a lot of them were just there to get access to the stew pot. As the silver age closed, though, it’s very easy to imagine someone looking back past the silver age into the golden age and really see it for what it was, and to understand “This was actually something really influential, and another moment like this will probably never come again”
And then a lot of the rest of what I know comes from listening to people talk at conventions (mainly recordings of those). There’s a lot of oral history to comic books as they exist as a result of the relationship Comic books have with propaganda and street art. A lot of comic book purists believe that a comic book should not arrive to the reader with any instructions on how to interpret it. The reader must take it in and consider it, and once they are co-located with someone involved with the making of the comic, or someone who’s gotten the information word of mouth, learn how to interpret the propaganda from verbal confirmation. Oda, the mangaka of One Piece, for many years was very cage-y about how to interpret his work and would always answer any questions from readers with “I can’t just tell you everything, you have to figure it out” but lately has been a bit more direct and urgent about that his work is a monumental piece of fiction intended to communicate that liberation movements need the following:
Laughter
A willingness to do violence
Queers
A sense of found family
An unwillingness by leadership to define themselves as heroes because calling yourself a hero makes you a self mythologizing autocrat
you i like. i’m moving house today, but after that i’ll try to put together a list of resources for learning comic books, graphic novels, and street art. unfortunately most of my understanding comes from word of mouth and physical books and articles, so a lot of what i just shared is just shit i’ve picked up through the years. but you can definitely start with comic tropes on youtube. that guy makes comics and comic history really approachable. personally i think he’s at his best when he’s covering a silver age artist or an artist from somewhere other than NYC
Don’t believe nazi propaganda about those things. They were largely inefficient and disorganized, they just predated others to fuel their goals. It’s one of the economic reasons for waging war on everyone: once you use up your local stolen wealth, you gotta raid other people’s. Nazi organizational structures were famously broken, with different redundant levels of political control pitted against each other, in line with social darwinist ideas.
And by far not all Nazis were true believers. Tons were “merely” playing along, because they thought they’d get something out of it. They often did, with the wealth of previously Jewish owned (and other) companies being handed to people close to the leadership.
These are parallels, not contrasts.
You ever read a comic book with characters with big blocky fists and feet? You ever notice how the comic book villains in those stories were completely incompetent and SUPER weird? Yeah that’s because Jack Kirby, a Jewish man from NYC was a forward scout during WWII and saw the nazis for who they were first hand. He spent a career trying to communicate to the world the horrors of what he saw: these weird dumbasses were somehow able to kill 6M of his brothers and sisters simply by doing it.
He also portrayed his Jewish-coded characters such as The Thing as being deeply emotionally connected to the people around them and invested in social causes because
None of the way silver and bronze age comics depict violent weirdos is an accident. Comic Books as an art form has its roots in a mix of street art and war-time propaganda. The weird part (or perhaps the beautiful part) is that across the globe this is true. Spanish Comics have their own look and feel influenced by that Iberian street art has its own look and feel. Same with Japanese comics, Latin American comics, comic books from people outside of NYC. I could go on. But there’s this… Incredible force of… Human nature where when we gather together we tell stories and spread messages to each other. Comic Books are a low art, and they’re often seen as being for kids, but their creators don’t see being low art as being lesser art. A lot of them have high art training and have seen what the high art world values and have rejected that.
And like… There are some comic books out there that have TRULY incredible things to say about the world, history, and humanity. My very favorite, One Piece, is super accessible, too, written and conceived to communicate to 10 year olds that resistance to fascism is rooted in the following: environmental protections, comedy, and giving nazis a good old fashioned punching. Maus is a biographical examination of the experience of a holocaust survival. Monster is about the traumas of the cold-war era for people “protected” by the mass control mechanisms established by the Soviet Union and United States. Footnotes in Gaza is an expose of the long running genocide in Gaza that is currently intensifying into total elimination. V for Vendetta explores what it means to resist fascism. Saga is… Jesus what do I even say about Saga. Saga is… An exploration of… Everything. It takes a deep close up look at what it feels like to try to survive in a total system of torture while maintaining a normal relationship (hint hint: it’s messy). Too often we think of war as being a top level thing between groups when those groups are made up of individuals experiencing daily personal tragedies. Saga addresses that. Which means there’s a mass scale war and interpersonal drama and neither draws focus from the other, but instead places both into stark relief about what’s going on.
New paragraph because I’m not done saying there’s comics out there that y’all should check out. Obviously there’s Watchmen, the examination of American fascism and its downsides. Actually I guess that’s the last one. But like… I hope this makes an impression on someone. Comic Book artists aren’t just trying to make a buck drawing doodles. A lot of them could make more money selling their work to high art assholes, but they choose to share their work with you and inspire you into being a better more complete person. And the accessibility and relationship between Comic Books and Street art is also an invitation. If you have a message to promote to the world, there’s a place for you in the arts, even if your art isn’t refined enough for the high art assholes. Still you can make something that connects with someone.
If you really pay attention, too, to the street art in your community, you can start to notice that street artists are having an asynchronous conversation with eachother. One will tag something and include a message with a tag, and then another street artist will tag something nearby with a message that’s related or in response. And when you see street art covering up other street art? That’s a dire message. The second artist is telling the first “I don’t just disagree with you. I think you should shut the fuck up and stay out of the streets”
And comic books are always having this conversation back with the streets, too. That’s part of what’s so incredible about the Spider-Verse films. They’re the first super hero films that engage with that the intersection of activism, art, and fantasy is where superheros come from. Every Spider-Man in those films is an artist of some variety and Spider-Punk (Hobie) is an EXPLICIT demonstration of exactly how far this can go. His activism and art aren’t an undercurrent or a side hustle for his spider-man. They’re an explicit aspect of his “heroism” (he’s not a hero because calling yourself a hero makes you a self mythologizing autocrat (by the way Luffy in One Piece says the exact same thing))
Upvoting the selection of truly impactful comic books. Guess my collection is missing Saga. Thank you for that.
god i’m glad some part of that long rant landed for someone. it’s so weird how on the internet effort, care, and thought are all punished
Hmm, honestly, I feel like that isn’t necessarily the case and often connected to the audience, especially if such a comment is offtopic.
Personally I have felt that on Lemmy effort and care are very much appreciated. But there is a breaking point in regards to the insightfulness and the length of the comment. Like there needs to be at least X amount of new and interestimg information per paragraph.
Hey its me the internet, SHAME ON YOU for writing such a thoughtful comment.
You know, it isn’t easy being me, I somehow have access to all the information on earth and yet I leave all the smart kind people in the world with sad surprised pikachu expressions on their faces!
What to do!
Then someone like you comes along with the nerve to write a cool comment and like bam all of a sudden the whole dead internet theory of corporate control over the media seems like a bunch of powerful people giving up their power to control the commons in an a hilarious strategic miscalculation that assumed killing the lights wouldn’t make the person with the crank up flashlight the most popular person in the room.
How DARE you. Whatever you do don’t keep writing really interesting and cool comments like this and definitely don’t link to more interesting sources and articles people can read if they find it interesting.
STOP IT… no I told you to STOP DOING THAT
And then a lot of the rest of what I know comes from listening to people talk at conventions (mainly recordings of those). There’s a lot of oral history to comic books as they exist as a result of the relationship Comic books have with propaganda and street art. A lot of comic book purists believe that a comic book should not arrive to the reader with any instructions on how to interpret it. The reader must take it in and consider it, and once they are co-located with someone involved with the making of the comic, or someone who’s gotten the information word of mouth, learn how to interpret the propaganda from verbal confirmation. Oda, the mangaka of One Piece, for many years was very cage-y about how to interpret his work and would always answer any questions from readers with “I can’t just tell you everything, you have to figure it out” but lately has been a bit more direct and urgent about that his work is a monumental piece of fiction intended to communicate that liberation movements need the following:
i haven’t forgot about you. i just got home. i’ll send some shit tomorrow
you i like. i’m moving house today, but after that i’ll try to put together a list of resources for learning comic books, graphic novels, and street art. unfortunately most of my understanding comes from word of mouth and physical books and articles, so a lot of what i just shared is just shit i’ve picked up through the years. but you can definitely start with comic tropes on youtube. that guy makes comics and comic history really approachable. personally i think he’s at his best when he’s covering a silver age artist or an artist from somewhere other than NYC
Fair enough, I stand corrected.