People blame the concept but forget it was someone’s life philosophy of survival in their environment at the time. It’s better to de-abstract and use your best judgement from case to case. It makes more sense. You’d end up mixing a whole bunch of ideologies without realizing.
people around here like to blame the nebulous concept of “capitalism” for all the world’s problems instead of focusing on the actual causes of those problems: billionaires and corporations using their massive wealth to stiffle competition, bribe governments, harm those beneath them for their own entertainment, and otherwise inflate their own wealth even further. What part of this is unique to capitalism? Furthermore, what aspects of communism that are actually beneficial to the common man are exclusive to communism, and couldn’t be implemented in to a capitalist system through changes in poliicy?
governments and economies are machines that require frequent cleaning and maintenance. Any government, lacking sufficient care, will decay into fascism. Look at the us currently.
“The problem isn’t capitalism, it’s just all the stuff capitalism allows and encourages people to do!”
If anything, your idea of what the problem is, is incredibly more nebulous. There’s no analysis or understanding, just “bad people do bad stuff.”
Furthermore, what aspects of communism that are actually beneficial to the common man are exclusive to communism
Are we talking about communism (economic system) or communists (ideological justification for state capitalism used by 20th century authoritarian states), because the differences between the economic system of communism and capitalism are pretty clear.
Capitalism isn’t that nebulous, we can start with the basic wikipedia definition:
Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their use for the purpose of obtaining profit.[a] This socioeconomic system has developed historically through several stages and is defined by a number of basic constituent elements: private property, profit motive, capital accumulation, competitive markets, commodification, wage labor, and an emphasis on innovation and economic growth. Capitalist economies tend to experience a business cycle of economic growth followed by recessions
Now what’s the central problem here? I’d say it’s definitely capital accumulation. The problem is that capital is power, and it has a strong tendency to grow exponentially. Once capital becomes concentrated enough, it will subvert the government via bribery and any democracy via privatized propaganda. From an anarchist perspective it’s just another unjust power structure, but veiled behind layers of false meritocracy and false consent.
If you make it impossible for private individuals or organizations to accrue large amounts of capital, you effectively no longer have capitalism but you may still have a market economy.
That’s a shit definition even by Wikipedia’s own admission
There is no universally agreed upon definition of capitalism; it is unclear whether or not capitalism characterizes an entire society, a specific type of social order, or crucial components or elements of a society. Societies officially founded in opposition to capitalism (such as the Soviet Union) have sometimes been argued to actually exhibit characteristics of capitalism. Nancy Fraser describes usage of the term “capitalism” by many authors as “mainly rhetorical, functioning less as an actual concept than as a gesture toward the need for a concept”. Scholars who are uncritical of capitalism rarely actually use the term “capitalism”. Some doubt that the term “capitalism” possesses valid scientific dignity, and it is generally not discussed in mainstream economics, with economist Daron Acemoglu suggesting that the term “capitalism” should be abandoned entirely. Consequently, understanding of the concept of capitalism tends to be heavily influenced by opponents of capitalism and by the followers and critics of Karl Marx.
The introduction of The Cambridge History of Capitalism approaches it this way
What are the salient features of modern capitalism and how were these features manifested in earlier times? The scholarly literature refers variously to agrarian capitalism, industrial capitalism, financial capitalism, monopoly capitalism, state capitalism, crony capitalism, and even creative capitalism. Whatever the specific variety of capitalism denoted by these phrases, however, the connotation is nearly always negative. This is because the word “capitalism” was invented and then deployed by the critics of capitalists during the first global economy that clearly arose after 1848 and the spread of capitalism worldwide up to 1914. In the resurgence of a global economy at the beginning of the twenty-first century, however, scholars accept that there can be many varieties of capitalism and that there are comparative advantages to each variety (Hall and Soskice 2001).
Four elements, however, are common in each variant of capitalism, whatever the specific emphasis:
- private property rights;
- contracts enforceable by third parties;
- markets with responsive prices; and
- supportive governments.
Each of these elements must deal specifically with capital, a factor of production that is somehow physically embodied, whether in buildings and equipment, or in improvements to land, or in people with special knowledge. Regardless of the form it takes, however, the capital has to be long lived and not ephemeral to have meaningful economic effects. […]
Beyond these technical terms used by modern economists to define “capital” objectively for purposes of academic research, however, “capitalism” must also be considered as a system within which markets operate effectively to create price signals that can be observed and responded to effectively by everyone concerned – consumers, producers, and regulators.
Those 4 elements come closer to economics textbook definitions: some sort of economic system involving private property rights, contracts, & competitive markets maintained & enforced by government.
oh hey i use that same image for my catch-all hiphop playlist!
i love it, but the folks i send it to seem not to enjoy aesop rock and danny brown in such close proximity 😕
Ooh, I’m a fan of Aesop Rock and Danny Brown in close proximity 👀 what else you got on there?
i hit shuffle and got avatar & dynamo, atmosphere, and then tech n9ne lmao
You don’t get it bro. Capitalism is awesome, because i’m above in the social hierarchy! Under socialism i would just be a normal peasant.
… What do you mean, it’s unfair for everyone else? Fuck’em.
/s poes law n shitthe fucking horrifying thing is that even people who are actively and obviously being harmed by capitalism will defend it, and if you keep refuting their arguments they just start panicking because they haven’t actually thought about it, they just know they have to support the status quo at all costs.
Under socialism i would just be a normal peasant.
Nah, you’d be slaving a 12 hour shift in the coal mine.
For me it’s the fact that my people have always been sent to the gulags in so-called socialist countries. And I definitely don’t want to become a modernday “Jews for Hitler”. YMMV if you have a different background.
Tell me more about the Cuban and Chinese Jewish gulags, and why a sub named Flippanarchy is supposed to give a shit about Marxists anyways.
Then ask yourself what economic model the Nazis followed, Mr “I don’t want to be part of the Jews for Hitler”
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Big “he’s only deporting illegals!!!” vibes here
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I sympathize. However i’ll have to disagree (i’m an anarchist, so i don’t even like the “so-called socialist countries” you speak of ;))
Capitalism relies on exploiting the global south. Which, since my people mostly live there too (including I) i very obviously, dislike this. I could say the same as you for the opposite.
I have had conversations with my semi wealthy friends about this crap many times over the years.
The best was when I told one of them once that one of the possible solutions to wealth inequality was in instituting a maximum wealth while also providing minimum wealth through a universal income.
His counter argument to that was it would remove all the incentive for everyone to want to amass a fortune for themselves. He argued that if someone limited his wealth, he would no longer be motivated to want to do more … but he countered that by trying to convince me that it wasn’t all about the money. He said that everyone should be free to get as much money as they want without limits because that is what drives human progress. As well as the usual argument that if you gave free money to people, then they would be less likely to want to do anything for themselves, for others or for society.
All coming from a individual with about a million dollars worth of wealth. Perfectly comfortable for themselves but can’t stand to see others with any support because he never got any … except for his semi wealthy parents who gave him a great start in life.
it would remove all the incentive for everyone to want to amass a fortune for themselves
Like… That’s the point?
everyone should be free to get as much money as they want without limits because that is what drives human progress
I love when they say this because it is the obvious projection of a greedy mind. Like no, it doesn’t drive human progress, it actually stifles it as the greedy do all in their power to maintain their profit streams, which includes frustrating the development of competition.
“And why do you want all that wealth? Does it give you happiness? Why do you feel the need to hoarde more? If living comfortable isnt enough, perhaps sharing it would give you value in your life that you desperately need.” Would be my response.
It’s funny because it’s true.
Your listening to a recycle bin? Why a recycle bin?
Because they just keep recycling the same tired arguments
but are the arguments trash, too?
The image would work better if there was a greasy pizza box in the bin, attempted recycling but really it’s just trash.
Goes to the same dumpster through glorified channels
there’s positives from it and negatives. stuff like large wealth inequalities can be easily fixed with progressive tax rates. it all depends on how its done
by the time you fix all the problems, it’s straight up, not capitalism anymore.
I want private ownership and competition along with markets that can find the optimal price for goods. there can be safety nets for the poor sick and insane and the combination of this is simply another sort of capitalsm
What does optimal mean in this scenario? Because really that is the crux of the issue. Capitalism puts the power into the hands of corporations to determine what is optimal. That’s what the free market is. The consumer doesn’t really have power in that system in any way that matters.
What does optimal mean in this scenario?
That’s a great question and it really depends on a lot. Ideally if there’s no artificial monopolies and there is significant competition, all the sellers of a good or service will be forced to offer the lowest price, in order to win over the buyers, who will buy the cheapest product. Of course at some point the price cant get any cheaper, and that optimal price will be slightly above the cost of making the good.
The consumer doesn’t really have power in that system in any way that matters.
The consumer can choose not to buy a product they don’t like, and if they want to amplify that effect they can organize boycotts of it. Imagine if Amazon doubled all of their prices tomorrow, no one would buy from them, and they would lose money. And because of this, the market can somewhat control Amazon’s prices. if there’s an industry that is filled with expensive, low quality products everyone hates, there is massive incentive for a new player to join with a product that is cheaper and better.
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I like to link to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism because without the people who abuse the system, it would be a lot better. We need to close these loopholes, but of course rich people have the money to keep them open or find new ones.
Removing loopholes that the cronies exploit and removing tax havens, etc (other tax loopholes) would (in my opinion) make leave us in a much better state that we currently are in.
We hate crony capitalism not just capitalism on its own I believe.
Edit: hope this isnt recycled
no, no we hate capitalism around these parts
Read the sub name fam
clears throat
Markets are not evil in and of themselves.
Concentrated capital and poor market controls lead to unfair outcomes.
Markets can be an efficient way of distributing goods, even under socialist structures.
capitalism =/= markets
I’ve never seen anyone on lemmy actually defend capitalism.
There is someone doing it in this very thread. But yeah, Lemmy is, fortunately, quite left-wing
No they’re not lol
All they did was define it, and then say they hate people that abuse that system.“I have no problems with capitalism” sounds pretty defend-y to me
I don’t have any problems with pigeons. That doesn’t mean im defending them.
To be fair, you’re also not in the comments of an anti-pigeon post in an anti-pigeon community
Thank goodness. They’re such misunderstood creatures.
We need anti-pigeon comm though 🤔
How could you possibly!? Have you seen their nests!? LOOK AT THEIR NESTS AND SAY THAT AGAIN
So? Do words not have meaning here or something?
No, words still have meaning. But context matters, and context can have a bearing on meaning. The bar for what counts as “defending capitalism” is going to look different in a community of anarchists compared to a “change my view” type of community.
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I got a couple replies just today in which people were defending capitalism. Post harder? 😛
Nah. I even googled it:
Capitalism is an economic system characterized by private ownership of the means of production, where goods and services are produced and distributed based on market competition and profit motives
As such, I have no problems with capitalism. But with sick fucks who think they absolutely need another golden car and a yacht at a price of ruines lives (human and not human alike) - those must be brought to extinction, preferably fast
Sick fucks will always rise to the top under capitalism.
Oh, and other (edit: under) something else they won’t. I got a bridge to sell ya, for only 1 billion of dollars
Private ownership of means of production has led to all the atrocities that Nestle has committed. You need to start having a problem with capitalism because unless you’re a billionaire, it’s not your friend
No, sick dumb fucks are my enemy, if you wish to see this in friend/foe paradigm. Capitalism or not, they will find a way to fuck everything around them, since it’s what they do. Or do I need to remind you that oh-so-very-not-capitalistic-soviet-union-china-and-others are also a pile of shit, just different flavour?
I’m an anarchist, not a tankie. All right then, keep sucking those boots.
What a bunch of labels, lol. Gl hf
I see you are failing to make a point anymore so get back to cleaning those boots like a good little drone
Oh, I do not give you noooo-capitalism-acshually-good-becos-reasons reply, and now you just project it and go on as usual? Nice trick, I want more. Show me something
You’re the one that keeps saying stupid shit, show me that you aren’t a dumb little drone.
Ah, so all systems are shit and there is no hope for a better one. You’re a nihilist!
Anyways, would be pretty cool to live in a system that discourages hoarding and excess, or at least doesn’t benefit it, rather than encouraging it. Neither capitalism nor state socialism have achieved that one.
Wrong guess, I am not that label either. And you still hope for some vague system to make things run well. This is futile, won’t happen
Wasn’t guessing your label. I was applying one. Enjoy your day 😁
So, you are not interested in talking to humans. Good luck
