Ok then America should be a smaller collection of native states that the white settlers genocided.
I agree in principle. But you can’t reverse history to what it SHOULD have been.
Self determination is I assume your point. Which I’m all for. But that is only as good as how well those states can continue to defend their sovereignty. You break up Russia and then it’s just a bunch of small defenseless states that the rest of the world with pick apart for resources as they’ve done with Ukraine.
Even if they did separate, there would still be a Russia, and it would not lose as much as one might think.
And even so, it is a bad idea. There are so many disputes between the nations, that we would likely see a few wars. Something like what is happening between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Also, many of them are too small to exist in a meaningful was as independent countries, and I honestly don’t see the harm in them remaining in Russia.
There are so many disputes between the nations, that we would likely see a few wars.
Since the break up of the USSR, Russia has fought two wars in Chechnya and invaded both Georgia and Ukraine. I’m failing to see how the prospect of perennial future wars is something to worry about when they’re already engaging in what you’re worried about.
Also, Russia is partially to blame for the Armenian-Azeri war as they have failed to uphold their CTSO obligations to Armenia.
Yeah, but it is going to be even worse. Russian Caucasus is going to have a few wars at least, hell, it did happen to an extent when the federal government was weak. There are territorial disputes and conflicts that are only suspended for as long as these republics are a part of Russia.
So my point stands: there are reasons to be opposed to the “balkanisation of Russia” and no reasons to support it, unless you want that because you just want to hurt Russia, but in this case be honest with yourself and do not pretend you are doing it for the ethnic minorities.
Correcting historic injustice is usually pretty messy. I’m not looking for Russia to be hurt, I’m looking for it to be broken up so it can no longer wage the wars of conquest it has consistently engaged in as well as giving the ethnic minorities that imperial Russia and the USSR oppressed the self determination they deserve. There would have been no wars in the caucuses in the 90’s if not for Russian imperialism.
You mentioned the invasion of Georgia, and it seems from the context like you believe it to be an injust invasion. Is this correct? Do you believe Georgia is entitled to the land it lost?
Which time? When the Bolsheviks ousted a democratic government in 1921? When the Red Army crushed protests in 1989?
I get your implied point that Ossetians and Abkhazians did not feel included in the Georgian nationalist government that took over after independence, but I also think that Russia crafted the conditions that created this problem in the first place and intervention from them was not the solution.
Serbia is definitely having issues right now with protests for sure. I’d argue that it’s not exactly surprising that a Russian aligned government has significant issues with corruption. In my view, a Balkanized Russia would be less capable of exporting their toxic politics around the world.
Other than that, most of the Balkan nations are on the higher end of the human development index, are all tending upwards for GDP (with PPP factored in), and are improving their infrastructure. Definitely a mixed bag when you look at specific areas, but they’re largely doing objectively better than they were 30 years ago.
I am not sure if you remember but the process of “balkanisation” was accompanied by certain unfortunate events, that included a genocide, the bombing of Belgrade, among others. Corruption is not the biggest problem here.
You said the balkans aren’t doing well; they largely are now. Those wars were a generation ago. Corruption is the biggest problem in the balkans right now as far as I can tell.
As for Russia, they’re already a genocidal state constantly engaged in war.
Well, yes. Maybe I should have phrased it differently: the “balkanisation of Russia”, like actual balkanisation, will be associated with a series of conflicts and deaths, if it does occur.
Also, genocidal is an overstatement. I do understand that using strong words like “fascism” and “genocide” when they are unwarranted is somewhat in fashion now, but believe it is best not to do that.
the “balkanisation of Russia”, like actual balkanisation, will be associated with a series of conflicts and death
Again, this is already status quo from Russia at the moment.
Also, genocidal is an overstatement.
A few days after the recapture, on 2 April 2022, news reports and videos emerged showing streets in Bucha covered with the bodies of men dressed in civilian clothes. Some of those found had their hands tied.[14][15] Among those killed were women and children. According to first estimations at least 280 bodies were found.[16] There was also evidence that Russian soldiers had systemically tortured, mutilated and executed many Ukrainians in the basement of a summer camp.[17] The event caused the Ukrainian government to call on the ICC to investigate whether or not Russia had committed war crimes.[18] On 7 April, the mayor of Bucha, Anatoliy Fedoruk, reported that almost 90% of the dead residents had bullet wounds, not shrapnel wounds.
In August 2023, the Institute for the Study of Warreported that the Ukrainian Resistance Center had claimed to have gained access to documents detailing Russian plans to conduct a decade-long ethnic cleansing campaign in occupied Mariupol. The ISW reported that the depopulation of Ukrainians through deportation and Russian efforts to attract Russian citizens to move to the city is likely to be an ethnic cleansing campaign in addition to being apparent violations of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.[83]
Russia has forcibly transferred almost 20 thousand Ukrainian children to areas under its control, assigned them Russian citizenship, forcibly adopted them into Russian families, and created obstacles for their reunification with their parents and homeland.[7][8]
These are genocidal actions, plain and simple. If you have a problem with me characterizing it as such I really don’t have anything else to say to you.
It’s Russia that shouldn’t be a country.
What should it be then?
A collection of the smaller ethnic states which The Russian Empire conquered and genocided.
Ok then America should be a smaller collection of native states that the white settlers genocided.
I agree in principle. But you can’t reverse history to what it SHOULD have been.
Self determination is I assume your point. Which I’m all for. But that is only as good as how well those states can continue to defend their sovereignty. You break up Russia and then it’s just a bunch of small defenseless states that the rest of the world with pick apart for resources as they’ve done with Ukraine.
Even if they did separate, there would still be a Russia, and it would not lose as much as one might think.
And even so, it is a bad idea. There are so many disputes between the nations, that we would likely see a few wars. Something like what is happening between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Also, many of them are too small to exist in a meaningful was as independent countries, and I honestly don’t see the harm in them remaining in Russia.
Since the break up of the USSR, Russia has fought two wars in Chechnya and invaded both Georgia and Ukraine. I’m failing to see how the prospect of perennial future wars is something to worry about when they’re already engaging in what you’re worried about.
Also, Russia is partially to blame for the Armenian-Azeri war as they have failed to uphold their CTSO obligations to Armenia.
Yeah, but it is going to be even worse. Russian Caucasus is going to have a few wars at least, hell, it did happen to an extent when the federal government was weak. There are territorial disputes and conflicts that are only suspended for as long as these republics are a part of Russia.
So my point stands: there are reasons to be opposed to the “balkanisation of Russia” and no reasons to support it, unless you want that because you just want to hurt Russia, but in this case be honest with yourself and do not pretend you are doing it for the ethnic minorities.
Correcting historic injustice is usually pretty messy. I’m not looking for Russia to be hurt, I’m looking for it to be broken up so it can no longer wage the wars of conquest it has consistently engaged in as well as giving the ethnic minorities that imperial Russia and the USSR oppressed the self determination they deserve. There would have been no wars in the caucuses in the 90’s if not for Russian imperialism.
You mentioned the invasion of Georgia, and it seems from the context like you believe it to be an injust invasion. Is this correct? Do you believe Georgia is entitled to the land it lost?
Which time? When the Bolsheviks ousted a democratic government in 1921? When the Red Army crushed protests in 1989?
I get your implied point that Ossetians and Abkhazians did not feel included in the Georgian nationalist government that took over after independence, but I also think that Russia crafted the conditions that created this problem in the first place and intervention from them was not the solution.
Balkanized
The Balkans are not exactly doing well, are they?
Serbia is definitely having issues right now with protests for sure. I’d argue that it’s not exactly surprising that a Russian aligned government has significant issues with corruption. In my view, a Balkanized Russia would be less capable of exporting their toxic politics around the world.
Other than that, most of the Balkan nations are on the higher end of the human development index, are all tending upwards for GDP (with PPP factored in), and are improving their infrastructure. Definitely a mixed bag when you look at specific areas, but they’re largely doing objectively better than they were 30 years ago.
I am not sure if you remember but the process of “balkanisation” was accompanied by certain unfortunate events, that included a genocide, the bombing of Belgrade, among others. Corruption is not the biggest problem here.
You said the balkans aren’t doing well; they largely are now. Those wars were a generation ago. Corruption is the biggest problem in the balkans right now as far as I can tell.
As for Russia, they’re already a genocidal state constantly engaged in war.
Well, yes. Maybe I should have phrased it differently: the “balkanisation of Russia”, like actual balkanisation, will be associated with a series of conflicts and deaths, if it does occur.
Also, genocidal is an overstatement. I do understand that using strong words like “fascism” and “genocide” when they are unwarranted is somewhat in fashion now, but believe it is best not to do that.
Again, this is already status quo from Russia at the moment.
These are genocidal actions, plain and simple. If you have a problem with me characterizing it as such I really don’t have anything else to say to you.
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