Does that address the question? It’s a fair question but I feel like you’re assuming similarity that isn’t there, between my POV and the State Department’s POV.
That’s fair, I could stand to be a little more charitable on that front.
I don’t have a clear position on Kosovo or Chechnya just because I don’t know that much about them, but the massive contradiction between how Russia reacted in Chechnya versus Donbas is one example of why I don’t take their narrative on anything seriously at all.
For me it helps to put some of these things in a sequence of events. First the US/EU actually supported the Russian response in Chechnya, I think it was Bill Clinton made an analogy to the US civil war, especially after all the terrorist attacks it wasn’t totally out of place. The warcrimes, high civilian death toll and brutal crackdowns after didn’t really cause that sympathy to last long after. I don’t recall that there were even any sanctions.
Kosovo came roughly after that, and the US supporting the separatist movement is what I was referencing as that was the break from what was ‘normal’ for separatist regions. That’s not to say that people in separatist regions shouldn’t be able to express themselves, but that it wasn’t the standard for how world leaders treated breakaway regions until then. Now that new standard (set by the US) has been followed by Russian in Ukraine.
I don’t think Moscow intervening in Donbas had anything at all to do with free people’s self-determination. Like I said, I get it if someone from there feels like they’re badly represented in Kyiv, but having automatic weapons flow in from outside so that they won’t have to honor the government that won their country’s election
I’m sure on some level it’s more a pretext than a principled stance on separatism by Russia, but also it reflects an earnest sentiment from people in eastern Ukraine.
by their own complicity in the massacre
Absolutely wrong. This is where I think you didn’t read the report carefully enough.
I did quote the official report for them in that response, in fact I only referenced so as not to include the editorializing.
and a bunch of people on all sides died including because of failures by local authorities (which caused understandable upset which was then compounded by failures of the Ukraine government during the investigation).
This is what I meant by complicity- failing to be transparent and diligent in investigating something serious, like murders, can look like you’re favoring one side. This reminds me of people in the US being mad at cops when they kill people, not because people think all cops are conspiring to kill black people (or whoever), but there’s a sentiment that they will turn a blind eye and protect cops who misbehave.
Also as not a total aside as a trans russian, but to give you an analogy for the understanding that state powers will instrumentalize any struggle, national or otherwise, for geopolitical ends. Take same sex marriage-only 14% of Ukrainians support legalizing it. In Russia, it’s 9%. Both places are queerphobic as fuck, to a much greater extend than even the worst red states in the US, Russia is mostly just more mask-off about it than Ukraine.
Despite that you would see Azov routinely attacked gay bars, there have been amnesty international reports about this since 2014 when the west started integrating the more fascist UA elements to their ends. That pride parades can only happen in Kiev when it is walled off from the frothing, fascist mob is in part NATO’s fault. That assaults on queer people by azov are practically never persecuted, that is at least partially due to their patronage from the west. Once the war started it was full steam painting Ukraine as pro-lgbt while they were pressing trans women fleeing the fighting into service because they were “men.”
That is not to excuse the ridiculous amount of anti-queer sentiment in Russia. The hunting down of queer people under Ramzan Kadyrov in the Russian province of Chechnya was probably the worst act of homophobic violence since many decades, we’re talking about thousands of people getting murdered by government death squads who spied on them on dating sites. After the murders, Kadyrov joked in front of the international press why they were asking about a persecution of gay people, “there are no gay people in Chechnya.”
Like that shit was appalling and largely absent from western discourse before the war.
For me it helps to put some of these things in a sequence of events. First the US/EU actually supported the Russian response in Chechnya
I don’t care. Like I said, the State Department’s viewpoint means nothing to me. Clinton presided over a whole lot of terrible fuckery.
That’s not to say that people in separatist regions shouldn’t be able to express themselves, but that it wasn’t the standard for how world leaders treated breakaway regions until then.
Like I said, world leaders are almost as hypocritical on this issue as Russia is. They basically, for the most part, say whatever’s in their best interests and often invest significant effort into inflaming this kind of “breakaway” region into a way to completely ruin whatever country and collapse it into a war in which they try to put their guy on top once it’s all over. That’s absolutely nothing to do with me.
It’s wrong when the US does it, wrong when Russia does it. Not complicated.
I did quote the official report for them in that response, in fact I only referenced so as not to include the editorializing.
I wasn’t editorializing. For an example, a quote is:
The attack was carried out by fascist thugs who were empowered in the U.S.-NATO-backed Maidan coup in Ukraine.
Versus
As soon as the march began to make its way towards the stadium, anti-Maidan activists approached
and attacked the demonstrators, some firing shots at them, still with no interference from the police.
Both sides used pyrotechnic devices and airguns, and threw stones, stun grenades and Molotov
cocktails
Exactly 100% backwards. They are lying on purpose. Again, I don’t see why I would need to be friendly to that or to anyone who’s posting it.
This is what I meant by complicity- failing to be transparent and diligent in investigating something serious, like murders, can look like you’re favoring one side.
That is actually what the judgement said. That’s not what the covertactionmagazine article said. What it said was that they strangled a pregnant woman to death with an electrical cord and drew a swastika with her blood on the wall. That’s the difference I’m highlighting.
to give you an analogy for the understanding that state powers will instrumentalize any struggle, national or otherwise, for geopolitical ends
Yes, absolutely. Which is why I have very little patience for any random individual who wants to instrumentalize whatever struggle in the same way, whichever state they’re stumping for. They’re not on your side, you don’t need to help them do that.
That’s fair, I could stand to be a little more charitable on that front.
For me it helps to put some of these things in a sequence of events. First the US/EU actually supported the Russian response in Chechnya, I think it was Bill Clinton made an analogy to the US civil war, especially after all the terrorist attacks it wasn’t totally out of place. The warcrimes, high civilian death toll and brutal crackdowns after didn’t really cause that sympathy to last long after. I don’t recall that there were even any sanctions.
Kosovo came roughly after that, and the US supporting the separatist movement is what I was referencing as that was the break from what was ‘normal’ for separatist regions. That’s not to say that people in separatist regions shouldn’t be able to express themselves, but that it wasn’t the standard for how world leaders treated breakaway regions until then. Now that new standard (set by the US) has been followed by Russian in Ukraine.
I’m sure on some level it’s more a pretext than a principled stance on separatism by Russia, but also it reflects an earnest sentiment from people in eastern Ukraine.
I did quote the official report for them in that response, in fact I only referenced so as not to include the editorializing.
This is what I meant by complicity- failing to be transparent and diligent in investigating something serious, like murders, can look like you’re favoring one side. This reminds me of people in the US being mad at cops when they kill people, not because people think all cops are conspiring to kill black people (or whoever), but there’s a sentiment that they will turn a blind eye and protect cops who misbehave.
Also as not a total aside as a trans russian, but to give you an analogy for the understanding that state powers will instrumentalize any struggle, national or otherwise, for geopolitical ends. Take same sex marriage-only 14% of Ukrainians support legalizing it. In Russia, it’s 9%. Both places are queerphobic as fuck, to a much greater extend than even the worst red states in the US, Russia is mostly just more mask-off about it than Ukraine.
Despite that you would see Azov routinely attacked gay bars, there have been amnesty international reports about this since 2014 when the west started integrating the more fascist UA elements to their ends. That pride parades can only happen in Kiev when it is walled off from the frothing, fascist mob is in part NATO’s fault. That assaults on queer people by azov are practically never persecuted, that is at least partially due to their patronage from the west. Once the war started it was full steam painting Ukraine as pro-lgbt while they were pressing trans women fleeing the fighting into service because they were “men.”
That is not to excuse the ridiculous amount of anti-queer sentiment in Russia. The hunting down of queer people under Ramzan Kadyrov in the Russian province of Chechnya was probably the worst act of homophobic violence since many decades, we’re talking about thousands of people getting murdered by government death squads who spied on them on dating sites. After the murders, Kadyrov joked in front of the international press why they were asking about a persecution of gay people, “there are no gay people in Chechnya.”
Like that shit was appalling and largely absent from western discourse before the war.
I don’t care. Like I said, the State Department’s viewpoint means nothing to me. Clinton presided over a whole lot of terrible fuckery.
Like I said, world leaders are almost as hypocritical on this issue as Russia is. They basically, for the most part, say whatever’s in their best interests and often invest significant effort into inflaming this kind of “breakaway” region into a way to completely ruin whatever country and collapse it into a war in which they try to put their guy on top once it’s all over. That’s absolutely nothing to do with me.
It’s wrong when the US does it, wrong when Russia does it. Not complicated.
I wasn’t editorializing. For an example, a quote is:
Versus
Exactly 100% backwards. They are lying on purpose. Again, I don’t see why I would need to be friendly to that or to anyone who’s posting it.
That is actually what the judgement said. That’s not what the covertactionmagazine article said. What it said was that they strangled a pregnant woman to death with an electrical cord and drew a swastika with her blood on the wall. That’s the difference I’m highlighting.
Yes, absolutely. Which is why I have very little patience for any random individual who wants to instrumentalize whatever struggle in the same way, whichever state they’re stumping for. They’re not on your side, you don’t need to help them do that.