Ive taken many economic courses, none of which talk about “skilled” or “unskilled labour”. They do, however, brainwash the fuck out of you into believing the post-scarcity capilist need for ever increasing profits not only makes sense, but is a necessary facet of society.
It’s derogatory and innacurate description, workers aren’t a commodity. Having a college degree doesn’t mean you’re a specialist. You don’t have to have a certification or degree to be skilled. Economist isn’t a skilled job because you can’t predict the future, it’s a self fullfilling prophecy when you apply your own perceptions into descision making. Not everything is a predictable pattern.
Just because it’s a term you learned in school doesn’t mean it’s not used to hold people back. The term is used to imply that people who aren’t skilled don’t deserve a living wage and lots of voters fall for it and push the narrative that if you flip burgers you don’t deserve to pay rent on time and go to the movies on the same month.
It’s an emotional response to point out how a word has been used to keep people from being paid what they’re worth? I think it’s an emotional response to cling so hard to a word that could very easily be changed and hurt no one.
No, why do you think that is the case? Most wages are paid out based on what the market fr that job pays not based on whether it is skilled or unskilled. My brother makes more in sales (unskilled) than my buddy who is a neurosurgeon.
Because I’ve heard people use it as an excuse for why minimum wage shouldn’t cover bills and they vote accordingly. Language matters.
It’s scientific jargon. If you are having an emotional response to it that’s not the fault if the field.
Scientific jargon can and has changed to better represent what they’re talking about no reason this can’t either unless that makes some people too… emotional.
You are having a purely emotional response to scientific jargon.
We’re humans who have emotional responses to things, and we should be cognizant of that when choosing our words. We should also be aware of how bad actors may use our words to manipulate public opinion via those emotions.
We don’t use things like mongoloid or crippled anymore even though they were once considered perfectly acceptable medical terms. Unskilled is inherently derogatory, and the thesaurus is offering alternatives such as fundamental, foundational, or generalized. I like generalized labor the best so far, because it contrasts perfectly with specialized.
Mate, this is very meta with the OP in a bad way.
Dismissing someone this way really goes against the values here. Not everyone had the chance to take higher education courses. And not having that chance does not invalidate immediately their views.
Unfortunately while this is “a” definition of skilled and unskilled labor, this is not how the media uses the term.
When the media refers to unskilled labor, they are absolutely not referring to wine importers. Or middle managers, or authors, or interior decorators, or any of the countless jobs that do not require any special training other than a non-specific college degree.
When they are referring to unskilled labor, they are referring to work that pays criminally low wages. That’s it.
Skilled workers are persons who are capable of performing skilled labor and whose job requires at least 2 years training or experience, not of a temporary or seasonal nature.
According to the US Citizenship and Immigration Service (archive) a commercial truck driver - who requires special certification in the form of a Commercial Driver’s License - is an unskilled laborer.
Can you tell my skill at say driving a forklift from that title?
Sorry, but forklift certification takes less than two years. A forklift driver is not a skilled laborer according to the USCIS or the media.
I acknowledge that the citizenship service isn’t the department of labor, but the department of labor doesn’t appear to use the terms “unskilled” and “skilled” at all. They use a more nuanced categorization of five “zones” of skill/certification instead. Probably due to the issues discussed in this post.
This spawned a long comment-chain argument, which I ran out of headspace to properly read and analyse, but I just want to say thank you to you both for arguing in (what looks like) good faith with citations and well expressed logic. It’s a credit to the community.
Skilled labor refers to jobs that require certification and training that imply specific distinct skill sets. For example if I tell you Im a mason, a plumber, or a radiologist you know exactly what my skills are.
My point was my job title does not imply any specific skills not that forklift operators are skilled labor (which I never claimed).
Oh, okay, sorry, I misunderstood. I think I follow now, and I’m sorry to say that your position is simply incorrect. Your stance on the CDL doesn’t make any sense. It’s not skilled because “commercial truck driver” doesn’t describe the types of vehicles you can drive?
According to the United States Government, a radiologist is not a skilled laborer OR an unskilled laborer, they are a Professional. A member of the Professions.
Nothing supports your definition that I can find. At all. Skilled labor refers to the skills you need to do the labor. Skilled labor does not refer to job titles that self-describe their skills. “Mason” is a skilled laborer because it describes what you do?
Masonry requires no special certifications at all. In fact, according to the USCIS, a mason isn’t a skilled laborer. (edit - there are masonry licenses, apologies for the mistake)
By your logic, “Warehouse Porter” with a forklift certification is not skilled labor, but “Forklift operator” would be a skilled laborer? They need special training, and the title describes exactly what they do, right?
Sorry. You’re really hung up on an outdated academic definition that just isn’t accurate or used the way you think it is. It’s sorta like complaining that people mean figuratively when they say literally.
That’s because you keep looking in the wrong places like USCIS as opposed to say the department of Labor. You could also just google “skilled vs unskilled labor”.
Please see my earlier comment. I can’t find DOL definition for skilled vs unskilled at all, let alone one that matches yours.
I did, thanks. I tried to look for something better or more authoritative than this. It describes skilled labor as laborers that are skilled. I don’t see anything about a self-descriptive title.
Skilled labor refers to highly trained, educated, or experienced segments of the workforce that can complete more complex mental or physical tasks on the job.
Unskilled labor is a workforce segment associated with a limited skill set or minimal economic value for the work performed. Unskilled labor is generally characterized by lower educational attainment, such as a high school diploma or lack thereof, typically resulting in smaller wages.
It clearly states that unskilled labor = low economic value and low wages. It then goes on to further stratify labor into “low-”, "mid-, and “semi-” skilled jobs with vague definitions. Delivery driver is semi skilled? For ubereats and UPS? At what level is a truck driver unskilled, skilled, or semiskilled?
Customer Service Representative is semi-skilled labor? Most of the few remaining jobs have been outsourced to literally anyone who can speak the language.
There definitely are jobs that are truly unskilled.
Hauling bags of cement on a construction site
Mucking out animal pens on a farm
Digging ditches with a shovel
Carrying and stacking firewood
These are jobs any able-bodied person can do without any training. Then you have very low skilled jobs such as being part of a moving crew for moving companies. For that one you need to be careful moving heavy and/or fragile objects without breaking them or damaging surroundings. But that’s really more about paying attention to what you’re doing than a skill you would receive training to do.
Right but this argument is due to a conflict between economics jargon and everyday language. The people opposed to the term “unskilled labour” are unhappy about the negative connotations of the word “unskilled.”
I disagree. This is a term which exists simultaneously in economics and in everyday speech. The everyday meaning has negative connotations whereas the economics term does not. People are responding to this conflict by trying to get economists to change their term in order to avoid the negative connotations.
I, personally, don’t agree with this approach to language in any case. Linguistic prescriptivism of this sort is authoritarian and highly susceptible to backlash. It’s vulnerable to the mistaken belief that if someone accedes to an authority’s demands, they now agree with the authority.
Everyday speech in an economic context but not by economists. That’s the difference. Two surgeons discussing an appendectomy over lunch is different from two random people in a bar discussing an appendectomy.
They’re both using a term from a technical context but their understanding of the technical meaning of the term is different and the connotations are different.
The answer here being that unskilled labor is not derived from everyday language, and people who can’t conceive of that being the case are angry about it. And, by probability, are more likely to work jobs classified as “unskilled labor”. 🤷
deleted by creator
Which is exactly the point of the post: there is no such thing as unskilled labour. This label must die
that’s such a pedantic point
Well, I do respond in kind to dumb attempts at arguing
deleted by creator
Ive taken many economic courses, none of which talk about “skilled” or “unskilled labour”. They do, however, brainwash the fuck out of you into believing the post-scarcity capilist need for ever increasing profits not only makes sense, but is a necessary facet of society.
I studied economics in college, currently looking for a job in the public sector, fuck profit
deleted by creator
It’s derogatory and innacurate description, workers aren’t a commodity. Having a college degree doesn’t mean you’re a specialist. You don’t have to have a certification or degree to be skilled. Economist isn’t a skilled job because you can’t predict the future, it’s a self fullfilling prophecy when you apply your own perceptions into descision making. Not everything is a predictable pattern.
deleted by creator
It’s not a science, it’s a cult.
deleted by creator
Just because it’s a term you learned in school doesn’t mean it’s not used to hold people back. The term is used to imply that people who aren’t skilled don’t deserve a living wage and lots of voters fall for it and push the narrative that if you flip burgers you don’t deserve to pay rent on time and go to the movies on the same month.
deleted by creator
Good news don’t travel so fast. Changing the term to something harder to make derogatory would be a much better solution.
deleted by creator
It’s an emotional response to point out how a word has been used to keep people from being paid what they’re worth? I think it’s an emotional response to cling so hard to a word that could very easily be changed and hurt no one.
deleted by creator
Because I’ve heard people use it as an excuse for why minimum wage shouldn’t cover bills and they vote accordingly. Language matters.
Scientific jargon can and has changed to better represent what they’re talking about no reason this can’t either unless that makes some people too… emotional.
deleted by creator
We’re humans who have emotional responses to things, and we should be cognizant of that when choosing our words. We should also be aware of how bad actors may use our words to manipulate public opinion via those emotions.
We don’t use things like mongoloid or crippled anymore even though they were once considered perfectly acceptable medical terms. Unskilled is inherently derogatory, and the thesaurus is offering alternatives such as fundamental, foundational, or generalized. I like generalized labor the best so far, because it contrasts perfectly with specialized.
Mate, this is very meta with the OP in a bad way. Dismissing someone this way really goes against the values here. Not everyone had the chance to take higher education courses. And not having that chance does not invalidate immediately their views.
deleted by creator
Lol. Did I say “label” or “concept”? You would know the difference if you had taken linguistics/logic courses, but alas
deleted by creator
Fun fact: it is not
Unfortunately while this is “a” definition of skilled and unskilled labor, this is not how the media uses the term.
When the media refers to unskilled labor, they are absolutely not referring to wine importers. Or middle managers, or authors, or interior decorators, or any of the countless jobs that do not require any special training other than a non-specific college degree.
When they are referring to unskilled labor, they are referring to work that pays criminally low wages. That’s it.
According to the US Citizenship and Immigration Service (archive) a commercial truck driver - who requires special certification in the form of a Commercial Driver’s License - is an unskilled laborer.
Sorry, but forklift certification takes less than two years. A forklift driver is not a skilled laborer according to the USCIS or the media.
I acknowledge that the citizenship service isn’t the department of labor, but the department of labor doesn’t appear to use the terms “unskilled” and “skilled” at all. They use a more nuanced categorization of five “zones” of skill/certification instead. Probably due to the issues discussed in this post.
This spawned a long comment-chain argument, which I ran out of headspace to properly read and analyse, but I just want to say thank you to you both for arguing in (what looks like) good faith with citations and well expressed logic. It’s a credit to the community.
deleted by creator
Oh, okay, sorry, I misunderstood. I think I follow now, and I’m sorry to say that your position is simply incorrect. Your stance on the CDL doesn’t make any sense. It’s not skilled because “commercial truck driver” doesn’t describe the types of vehicles you can drive?
According to the United States Government, a radiologist is not a skilled laborer OR an unskilled laborer, they are a Professional. A member of the Professions.
Nothing supports your definition that I can find. At all. Skilled labor refers to the skills you need to do the labor. Skilled labor does not refer to job titles that self-describe their skills. “Mason” is a skilled laborer because it describes what you do?
Masonry requires no special certifications at all. In fact, according to the USCIS, a mason isn’t a skilled laborer.(edit - there are masonry licenses, apologies for the mistake)By your logic, “Warehouse Porter” with a forklift certification is not skilled labor, but “Forklift operator” would be a skilled laborer? They need special training, and the title describes exactly what they do, right?
deleted by creator
Sorry. You’re really hung up on an outdated academic definition that just isn’t accurate or used the way you think it is. It’s sorta like complaining that people mean figuratively when they say literally.
Please see my earlier comment. I can’t find DOL definition for skilled vs unskilled at all, let alone one that matches yours.
deleted by creator
I did, thanks. I tried to look for something better or more authoritative than this. It describes skilled labor as laborers that are skilled. I don’t see anything about a self-descriptive title.
It clearly states that unskilled labor = low economic value and low wages. It then goes on to further stratify labor into “low-”, "mid-, and “semi-” skilled jobs with vague definitions. Delivery driver is semi skilled? For ubereats and UPS? At what level is a truck driver unskilled, skilled, or semiskilled?
Customer Service Representative is semi-skilled labor? Most of the few remaining jobs have been outsourced to literally anyone who can speak the language.
There definitely are jobs that are truly unskilled.
These are jobs any able-bodied person can do without any training. Then you have very low skilled jobs such as being part of a moving crew for moving companies. For that one you need to be careful moving heavy and/or fragile objects without breaking them or damaging surroundings. But that’s really more about paying attention to what you’re doing than a skill you would receive training to do.
deleted by creator
Right but this argument is due to a conflict between economics jargon and everyday language. The people opposed to the term “unskilled labour” are unhappy about the negative connotations of the word “unskilled.”
deleted by creator
I disagree. This is a term which exists simultaneously in economics and in everyday speech. The everyday meaning has negative connotations whereas the economics term does not. People are responding to this conflict by trying to get economists to change their term in order to avoid the negative connotations.
I, personally, don’t agree with this approach to language in any case. Linguistic prescriptivism of this sort is authoritarian and highly susceptible to backlash. It’s vulnerable to the mistaken belief that if someone accedes to an authority’s demands, they now agree with the authority.
deleted by creator
Everyday speech in an economic context but not by economists. That’s the difference. Two surgeons discussing an appendectomy over lunch is different from two random people in a bar discussing an appendectomy.
They’re both using a term from a technical context but their understanding of the technical meaning of the term is different and the connotations are different.
The answer here being that unskilled labor is not derived from everyday language, and people who can’t conceive of that being the case are angry about it. And, by probability, are more likely to work jobs classified as “unskilled labor”. 🤷