Tl;Dr the election was the only place that we had to have that discussion.
Look, there was a primary in the literal sense, I voted in it, but there wasn’t a primary in the practical sense. There were no debates, no discussion of his platform for '24, Biden didn’t campaign, and the Democratic party / Biden Campaign worked HARD to shut down questions about Biden’s viability or the Mandela effect where everyone seemed to remember him promising to be a single term president. I mean, I could swear I remember it too; I’m still puzzled about where so many folks got the idea. Then, once we were way past the primary, we found out that Biden was nowhere even near viable shape for the campaign trail. He put on the most disastrously bad debate performance in presidential debate history against an opponent that should have been (and was just four years prior) a joke. None of his other “see? He’s fine” appearances before or after inspired much faith either. So, we basically ended up with Harris and zero discussion about her platform. At first, I was really excited and eager to see what her platform would be. As time went on, though, I started seeing more and more that reminded me of HRC '16 and less meat to get excited about. If there had been a real primary in a practical sense, I would not have voted for Harris (and didn’t vote for Biden, I think I voted Phillips) on the platform she had.
The primaries are a time for the campaigns to work with voters and figure this stuff out, see what appeals to the base and is likely to get them to turn out. We never got to have that conversation with Harris, we barely had it at all with Biden. The only place we could have it is during the election, and my hope was (and remains) that campaigns are agile enough to respond when their base gives them feedback. I don’t support the Democrats because they’re Democrats, I support them because they offer the closest practical path to policies I want to see enacted. I want to see good policy win, and I think good policy will get the democrats their wins. We can’t ever improve if we can’t be accept criticism, and when it comes to politics, the appropriate way to criticize is a bit like finding the appropriate way to protest according to Fox News. We need to have these conversations to get better, and I absolutely do blame the Harris and Biden campaigns for putting themselves in such vulnerable positions and failing to respond appropriately to criticism. Their job is to get elected, and they failed.
Shitty as it was, there was no third or fourth option to be had; once Harris was in the driver’s seat, it was going to be her or Trump, simply by the way our political system is set up. With that in mind, going forward, all questions would have to boil down to “Is it preferable for Harris to enter into the presidency, or Trump?”
If it’s election-time in 1930 Weimar Germany, and my only viable choices in the election district I’m in are the SDP and the Nazis, banging the drum 24/7 on how the SDP is anti-LGBT (true) might not be the greatest choice in the coming election considering that the only other choice are the Nazis, who are MORE anti-LGBT plus a whole host of other horrific things. And if the Nazis themselves are beating that same drum, telling LGBT folk that the SDP is anti-LGBT, I might step back and consider whose electoral victory I’m contributing to by my rhetoric and what consequences it will have - such as on, say, LGBT folk.
We’re sitting here with literal fascists in government. “Our aristocrats weren’t good enough, or didn’t take the correct stance on foreign policy!” isn’t the correct answer to why this election turned out the way it did. Or if it is, that reflects such a broken attitude on the part of the American electorate that it’s not much better than the actual conclusion - most Americans do not care if fascism comes into power. And that includes everyone who didn’t vote, or protest voted. And many of those who didn’t vote or protest voted were inspired to do so by rhetoric encouraging apathy from both conservatives and their useful idiots.
Should the Dems have done a whole host of things differently, including having actual primaries? Are the Dems spineless corporate weasels? Are the Dems beholden to Israeli interests even in the face of a divided base? Yes, yes, yes. But none of that justifies “We’re going to let or help the literal fascists win.”
Look, my dude. The democrats were basically just trailing the republicans by maybe 12 years. At best, this victory would have bought us just a few more years of uneasy status quo and failing to address the causes and conditions that brought us to this point. As things were, we were getting our Nazi arc sooner or later. I’d rather choose no Nazis at all, and have the uncomfortable conversations needed to make that happen. Until we address the conditions that brought us to this point, we would, at any rate, inevitably tip into open fascism; shutting up, falling in line, and hoping that they’ll win if we don’t think bad thoughts about the democrats won’t fix it. Let’s face it, there wasn’t a political appetite for fixing it in the next four years, as there wasn’t in the last four years (see: Merrick Garland). We needed to fix it, and we still do.
Just so I’m clear, I’ve read chunks of Project 2025. My kids are on the chopping block. I am begging the democrats to do better than being diet Nazi.
Look, my dude. The democrats were basically just trailing the republicans by maybe 12 years.
Are you fucking kidding me?
Holy fucking shit.
Do you not remember the Republicans OR the Democrats 12 fucking years ago?
At best, this victory would have bought us just a few more years of uneasy status quo and failing to address the causes and conditions that brought us to this point. As things were, we were getting our Nazi arc sooner or later.
Oh, great, the “Let’s just get it over with” argument.
Until we address the conditions that brought us to this point, we would, at any rate, inevitably tip into open fascism; shutting up, falling in line, and hoping that they’ll win if we don’t think bad thoughts about the democrats won’t fix it. Let’s face it, there wasn’t a political appetite for fixing it in the next four years, as there wasn’t in the last four years (see: Merrick Garland). We needed to fix it, and we still do.
Oh, okay, so are we in a better position to address those conditions now that Trump was elected, or worse?
Worse?
In every sense?
Huh.
That you’re sitting here saying the Dems were just following the GOP and that the Dems are ‘Diet Nazi’, more now than they were previously, is exactly the kind of fact-free vibes-based fucking politics that I expect from my fellow Americans, and that fascists leverage so easily into voter apathy. I suppose it was stupid of me to expect people who took enough of an interest in politics to discuss it to have higher standards.
Not necessarily let’s get it over with as much as “let’s stop ratcheting right in order to win some elections and make stuff better”. Since 2016, there has NEVER been a good time to vote third party or criticize the democrats. Basically, since Trump got on scene, the democrats became so completely fragile that you can’t say bad stuff about them or disagree with them or they’ll lose :(
But let’s get real. The Harris campaign didn’t have a lot of meat to offer people, their entire strategy was “not Trump”. That’s not great, but then it’s also “not Trump” while telling everyone that the economy is fine actually, that they’re going to keep giving Israel billions in bombs but don’t worry because they’re totally going to do the ceasefire this time, that they’re going to crack down on the border even harder, and that they’re going to support expanding fracking. They weren’t saying “we’re the opposite of Trump” when they said “not Trump”. This might as well have been a Republican primary with John Kasich vs Trump.
Well, anyway, I guess a few of us shattered the Harris campaign into a trillion tiny pieces when we tried to push for good policies that might have actually won them the election. Snark aside, I am legitimately disappointed that this is where things are at; we should have been able to fix it, but we didn’t have the political will, and now we’ve already got democrats signalling the eagerness to work with the Trump presidency. We’re here now, can we please talk about how to make stuff better yet?
Not necessarily let’s get it over with as much as “let’s stop ratcheting right in order to win some elections and make stuff better”.
Okay. Did the Trump victory make ‘ratcheting right’ less likely?
No?
It made it more likely?
And reduces the chance of winning elections?
And ensures that everything is going to get worse?
There was no fucking reason for anyone who isn’t a fascist to sit this fucking one out.
Since 2016, there has NEVER been a good time to vote third party or criticize the democrats. Basically, since Trump got on scene, the democrats became so completely fragile that you can’t say bad stuff about them or disagree with them or they’ll lose :(
Since Trump got on the scene, we’ve had a literal fascist who has the only other party in the country in lockstep behind him; yes, it is kind of important that he be defeated at the ballot box? Jesus fucking Christ.
But let’s get real. The Harris campaign didn’t have a lot of meat to offer people, their entire strategy was “not Trump”. That’s not great, but then it’s also “not Trump” while telling everyone that the economy is fine actually, that they’re going to keep giving Israel billions in bombs but don’t worry because they’re totally going to do the ceasefire this time,
Which has been bipartisan for the past forty fucking years. It’s hardly proof that the Dems were ‘following 12 years behind the GOP’. The Dem platform was the most anti-Israel I’ve seen in my lifetime, and while that’s damnation by faint praise, the message sent by the fucking electorate was: “The more pro-Israel candidate has won”
that they’re going to crack down on the border even harder,
Almost 80% of Americans buy into the idea that there’s a ‘crisis’ on the border, with broad bipartisan support. Do you really think that’s the issue that discouraged people from voting for Harris?
They weren’t saying “we’re the opposite of Trump” when they said “not Trump”. This might as well have been a Republican primary with John Kasich vs Trump.
Ah, yes, John Kasich’s well known clean energy, free college, marijuana decriminalization, corporate tax raising, LGBT supporting, pro-DEI, anti-price gouging, pro-choice, public healthcare expansion platform.
Well, anyway, I guess a few of us shattered the Harris campaign into a trillion tiny pieces when we tried to push for good policies that might have actually won them the election. Snark aside, I am legitimately disappointed that this is where things are at; we should have been able to fix it, but we didn’t have the political will, and now we’ve already got democrats signalling the eagerness to work with the Trump presidency.
“People in government want to work with those who hold power in government”
Who could have predicted this? If only there was something we could’ve done, like put someone else in power in the government.
We’re here now, can we please talk about how to make stuff better yet?
Sure, we can bring up some form of action, and then everyone who played purity politics can say that our allies aren’t good enough to unite against fascists with, again, and we can repeat the 2024 election for every undertaking we have from here on out, electoral or otherwise.
Look, blame me if it makes you feel better, but imo the democrats were trying to play with fire by trapping voters between Trump and their donors and betting that they wouldn’t pick Trump. Then, they went and did it a second time. All I’m saying then and now is that we’d be better off-- both in terms of being further from Nazis AND in terms of winning elections-- not playing with that fire and actually doing a meaningful campaign. It’s like watching your kid touch the stove twice in a row (while telling them not to, mind you) and getting mad at the stove for burning them.
Ah, yes, John Kasich’s well known clean energy, free college, marijuana decriminalization, corporate tax raising, LGBT supporting, pro-DEI, anti-price gouging, pro-choice, public healthcare expansion platform
Harris was some of those, yes, but I think you’re being pretty generous in a few places here.
I’m not happy Trump won, and that’s why I think it’s important to hold Democrats accountable for their fuckups that got us here, rather than letting them blame the voters. I think that Not Trump isn’t a compelling message- regardless of whether you or I think it SHOULD be- and that the democrats, much more than a few dorks online, did a lot of work turning off their own base in the last 12 years in exchange for peeling off, idk, like five Republicans.
Look, blame me if it makes you feel better, but imo the democrats were trying to play with fire by trapping voters between Trump and their donors and betting that they wouldn’t pick Trump. Then, they went and did it a second time. All I’m saying then and now is that we’d be better off-- both in terms of being further from Nazis AND in terms of winning elections-- not playing with that fire and actually doing a meaningful campaign. It’s like watching your kid touch the stove twice in a row (while telling them not to, mind you) and getting mad at the stove for burning them.
Voters aren’t a stove, man. Voters make choices. Voters chose to ignore fascism.
And hell, the idea that the Dems ‘trapped’ voters between Trump and their donors only really applies in 2024. In 2016 and 2020? The corporate candidate won the primary. Leftists believe there’s some great groundswell of labor support ready to burst forth from the American population, because vague platitudes poll well. But the awful truth is that most Americans are not as radical as we are; most primary voting Americans are only even vaguely aware of the issues, much less deeper systemic problems that need to be addressed.
Harris was some of those, yes, but I think you’re being pretty generous in a few places here.
Not at all. I can quote and link her for the 2024 campaign on all of those issues. For that matter, I remember a time not that long ago when Dems didn’t support several of those positions. But the drumbeat of “Not good enough” and exaggeration of how far right Harris and the Dems were took root as a narrative.
I’m not happy Trump won, and that’s why I think it’s important to hold Democrats accountable for their fuckups that got us here, rather than letting them blame the voters. I think that Not Trump isn’t a compelling message- regardless of whether you or I think it SHOULD be- and that the democrats, much more than a few dorks online, did a lot of work turning off their own base in the last 12 years in exchange for peeling off, idk, like five Republicans.
If you’re looking for blame per-capita, obviously Harris and her campaign are most at fault. But man, at the end of the day, I don’t know if I said it here or in another conversation, the fate of the nation should not rest on whether or not our party produces a ‘good enough’ aristocrat to lead us poor sniveling masses. We have elections. And the American people chose, or chose to be indifferent to, fascism.
You want to measure up which individuals deserve the guillotine? Look at the Dem party, sure. But you want to measure up who has to change if this country is to have a sustainable democracy?
Thanks for the reasonable discussion as well. I dunno, I kinda agree, but I also think that it’s not for nothing that there are Obama-Bernie-Trump voters. The through line there is change, people are desperate for LOTS of it, and the one time in the last 12 years the democrats kind of offered it (Biden), they won. This is the exact moment the Harris campaign was fucking cooked:
That should have set off more alarms than the control room at Chornobyl. Talking down to your base for not supporting you enough is a really, really, really bad sign (and look) and someone should have hit the panic button. Instead, they played it like 2016 and made a bunch of celebrity appearances.
Tl;Dr the election was the only place that we had to have that discussion.
Look, there was a primary in the literal sense, I voted in it, but there wasn’t a primary in the practical sense. There were no debates, no discussion of his platform for '24, Biden didn’t campaign, and the Democratic party / Biden Campaign worked HARD to shut down questions about Biden’s viability or the Mandela effect where everyone seemed to remember him promising to be a single term president. I mean, I could swear I remember it too; I’m still puzzled about where so many folks got the idea. Then, once we were way past the primary, we found out that Biden was nowhere even near viable shape for the campaign trail. He put on the most disastrously bad debate performance in presidential debate history against an opponent that should have been (and was just four years prior) a joke. None of his other “see? He’s fine” appearances before or after inspired much faith either. So, we basically ended up with Harris and zero discussion about her platform. At first, I was really excited and eager to see what her platform would be. As time went on, though, I started seeing more and more that reminded me of HRC '16 and less meat to get excited about. If there had been a real primary in a practical sense, I would not have voted for Harris (and didn’t vote for Biden, I think I voted Phillips) on the platform she had.
The primaries are a time for the campaigns to work with voters and figure this stuff out, see what appeals to the base and is likely to get them to turn out. We never got to have that conversation with Harris, we barely had it at all with Biden. The only place we could have it is during the election, and my hope was (and remains) that campaigns are agile enough to respond when their base gives them feedback. I don’t support the Democrats because they’re Democrats, I support them because they offer the closest practical path to policies I want to see enacted. I want to see good policy win, and I think good policy will get the democrats their wins. We can’t ever improve if we can’t be accept criticism, and when it comes to politics, the appropriate way to criticize is a bit like finding the appropriate way to protest according to Fox News. We need to have these conversations to get better, and I absolutely do blame the Harris and Biden campaigns for putting themselves in such vulnerable positions and failing to respond appropriately to criticism. Their job is to get elected, and they failed.
Shitty as it was, there was no third or fourth option to be had; once Harris was in the driver’s seat, it was going to be her or Trump, simply by the way our political system is set up. With that in mind, going forward, all questions would have to boil down to “Is it preferable for Harris to enter into the presidency, or Trump?”
If it’s election-time in 1930 Weimar Germany, and my only viable choices in the election district I’m in are the SDP and the Nazis, banging the drum 24/7 on how the SDP is anti-LGBT (true) might not be the greatest choice in the coming election considering that the only other choice are the Nazis, who are MORE anti-LGBT plus a whole host of other horrific things. And if the Nazis themselves are beating that same drum, telling LGBT folk that the SDP is anti-LGBT, I might step back and consider whose electoral victory I’m contributing to by my rhetoric and what consequences it will have - such as on, say, LGBT folk.
We’re sitting here with literal fascists in government. “Our aristocrats weren’t good enough, or didn’t take the correct stance on foreign policy!” isn’t the correct answer to why this election turned out the way it did. Or if it is, that reflects such a broken attitude on the part of the American electorate that it’s not much better than the actual conclusion - most Americans do not care if fascism comes into power. And that includes everyone who didn’t vote, or protest voted. And many of those who didn’t vote or protest voted were inspired to do so by rhetoric encouraging apathy from both conservatives and their useful idiots.
Should the Dems have done a whole host of things differently, including having actual primaries? Are the Dems spineless corporate weasels? Are the Dems beholden to Israeli interests even in the face of a divided base? Yes, yes, yes. But none of that justifies “We’re going to let or help the literal fascists win.”
Look, my dude. The democrats were basically just trailing the republicans by maybe 12 years. At best, this victory would have bought us just a few more years of uneasy status quo and failing to address the causes and conditions that brought us to this point. As things were, we were getting our Nazi arc sooner or later. I’d rather choose no Nazis at all, and have the uncomfortable conversations needed to make that happen. Until we address the conditions that brought us to this point, we would, at any rate, inevitably tip into open fascism; shutting up, falling in line, and hoping that they’ll win if we don’t think bad thoughts about the democrats won’t fix it. Let’s face it, there wasn’t a political appetite for fixing it in the next four years, as there wasn’t in the last four years (see: Merrick Garland). We needed to fix it, and we still do.
Just so I’m clear, I’ve read chunks of Project 2025. My kids are on the chopping block. I am begging the democrats to do better than being diet Nazi.
Are you fucking kidding me?
Holy fucking shit.
Do you not remember the Republicans OR the Democrats 12 fucking years ago?
Oh, great, the “Let’s just get it over with” argument.
Oh, okay, so are we in a better position to address those conditions now that Trump was elected, or worse?
Worse?
In every sense?
Huh.
That you’re sitting here saying the Dems were just following the GOP and that the Dems are ‘Diet Nazi’, more now than they were previously, is exactly the kind of fact-free vibes-based fucking politics that I expect from my fellow Americans, and that fascists leverage so easily into voter apathy. I suppose it was stupid of me to expect people who took enough of an interest in politics to discuss it to have higher standards.
Not necessarily let’s get it over with as much as “let’s stop ratcheting right in order to win some elections and make stuff better”. Since 2016, there has NEVER been a good time to vote third party or criticize the democrats. Basically, since Trump got on scene, the democrats became so completely fragile that you can’t say bad stuff about them or disagree with them or they’ll lose :(
But let’s get real. The Harris campaign didn’t have a lot of meat to offer people, their entire strategy was “not Trump”. That’s not great, but then it’s also “not Trump” while telling everyone that the economy is fine actually, that they’re going to keep giving Israel billions in bombs but don’t worry because they’re totally going to do the ceasefire this time, that they’re going to crack down on the border even harder, and that they’re going to support expanding fracking. They weren’t saying “we’re the opposite of Trump” when they said “not Trump”. This might as well have been a Republican primary with John Kasich vs Trump.
Well, anyway, I guess a few of us shattered the Harris campaign into a trillion tiny pieces when we tried to push for good policies that might have actually won them the election. Snark aside, I am legitimately disappointed that this is where things are at; we should have been able to fix it, but we didn’t have the political will, and now we’ve already got democrats signalling the eagerness to work with the Trump presidency. We’re here now, can we please talk about how to make stuff better yet?
Okay. Did the Trump victory make ‘ratcheting right’ less likely?
No?
It made it more likely?
And reduces the chance of winning elections?
And ensures that everything is going to get worse?
There was no fucking reason for anyone who isn’t a fascist to sit this fucking one out.
Since Trump got on the scene, we’ve had a literal fascist who has the only other party in the country in lockstep behind him; yes, it is kind of important that he be defeated at the ballot box? Jesus fucking Christ.
Which has been bipartisan for the past forty fucking years. It’s hardly proof that the Dems were ‘following 12 years behind the GOP’. The Dem platform was the most anti-Israel I’ve seen in my lifetime, and while that’s damnation by faint praise, the message sent by the fucking electorate was: “The more pro-Israel candidate has won”
Almost 80% of Americans buy into the idea that there’s a ‘crisis’ on the border, with broad bipartisan support. Do you really think that’s the issue that discouraged people from voting for Harris?
Ah, yes, John Kasich’s well known clean energy, free college, marijuana decriminalization, corporate tax raising, LGBT supporting, pro-DEI, anti-price gouging, pro-choice, public healthcare expansion platform.
“People in government want to work with those who hold power in government”
Who could have predicted this? If only there was something we could’ve done, like put someone else in power in the government.
Sure, we can bring up some form of action, and then everyone who played purity politics can say that our allies aren’t good enough to unite against fascists with, again, and we can repeat the 2024 election for every undertaking we have from here on out, electoral or otherwise.
Look, blame me if it makes you feel better, but imo the democrats were trying to play with fire by trapping voters between Trump and their donors and betting that they wouldn’t pick Trump. Then, they went and did it a second time. All I’m saying then and now is that we’d be better off-- both in terms of being further from Nazis AND in terms of winning elections-- not playing with that fire and actually doing a meaningful campaign. It’s like watching your kid touch the stove twice in a row (while telling them not to, mind you) and getting mad at the stove for burning them.
Harris was some of those, yes, but I think you’re being pretty generous in a few places here.
I’m not happy Trump won, and that’s why I think it’s important to hold Democrats accountable for their fuckups that got us here, rather than letting them blame the voters. I think that Not Trump isn’t a compelling message- regardless of whether you or I think it SHOULD be- and that the democrats, much more than a few dorks online, did a lot of work turning off their own base in the last 12 years in exchange for peeling off, idk, like five Republicans.
Voters aren’t a stove, man. Voters make choices. Voters chose to ignore fascism.
And hell, the idea that the Dems ‘trapped’ voters between Trump and their donors only really applies in 2024. In 2016 and 2020? The corporate candidate won the primary. Leftists believe there’s some great groundswell of labor support ready to burst forth from the American population, because vague platitudes poll well. But the awful truth is that most Americans are not as radical as we are; most primary voting Americans are only even vaguely aware of the issues, much less deeper systemic problems that need to be addressed.
Not at all. I can quote and link her for the 2024 campaign on all of those issues. For that matter, I remember a time not that long ago when Dems didn’t support several of those positions. But the drumbeat of “Not good enough” and exaggeration of how far right Harris and the Dems were took root as a narrative.
If you’re looking for blame per-capita, obviously Harris and her campaign are most at fault. But man, at the end of the day, I don’t know if I said it here or in another conversation, the fate of the nation should not rest on whether or not our party produces a ‘good enough’ aristocrat to lead us poor sniveling masses. We have elections. And the American people chose, or chose to be indifferent to, fascism.
You want to measure up which individuals deserve the guillotine? Look at the Dem party, sure. But you want to measure up who has to change if this country is to have a sustainable democracy?
It’s the voters. It’s us.
Upvoted for reasonable conversation btw
Thanks for the reasonable discussion as well. I dunno, I kinda agree, but I also think that it’s not for nothing that there are Obama-Bernie-Trump voters. The through line there is change, people are desperate for LOTS of it, and the one time in the last 12 years the democrats kind of offered it (Biden), they won. This is the exact moment the Harris campaign was fucking cooked:
https://youtu.be/QVD17hg4O7o
That should have set off more alarms than the control room at Chornobyl. Talking down to your base for not supporting you enough is a really, really, really bad sign (and look) and someone should have hit the panic button. Instead, they played it like 2016 and made a bunch of celebrity appearances.