To be clear, I am only talking about people like the average working class Trump voter. The ones who just got caught by misinformation, and just haven’t been able to find a way out. Trump and all his mates are terrible people, and should be held accountable.
The average voter is another thing. My attitude is that I got lucky, and found out that Trump and his mates are terrible, instead of getting sucked down a rabbit hole of supporting them. Knowing how fascism works, I don’t know if I’d be able to reliably land on the right side if fascism happened in my home country. And if I don’t believe I could reliably spot fascism, I’m not comfortable acting like those who support Trump could have.
This isn’t a discussion of “just be a good person”. I know plenty of amazing, caring people who believe they’re doing the right thing.
This whole idea of “I can’t say is reliably avoid fascism” is based on this, the school that became fascist for a week. As bad of an experiment that was from that teacher, it was an effective way of teaching how people fall for what should be obviously a bad thing.
He said he was a racist Nazi who wanted to be a dictator. Yeah i blame the people who voted for him.
On one hand, his entire ideology and what he said he wants to do was extremely hateful and even someone who didn’t think further into it should have seen that. They voted for him for at least that, deporting immigrants and all that. On the other hand, the rise of fascism is a sytemic issue caused by capitalism. It happens every time the economy isn’t doing well, that’s why people suddenly started voting for the NSDAP (Hitler’s party) too. We’re supposed to just write down our favorite party (that we select based on random information we’ve seen on social media once or who looks the coolest) on a piece of paper every few years, so we feel like we’re participating and we can spend the rest of our time working for the rich and consuming their products. We’re not supposed to actually take part in how our country is run. We don’t have any say in the economy anyway, that’s decided by people who just so happened to get rich and the people we elect to act in our interest just get bought out by the rich too.
I blame capitalism, the underfunded education, and the well-oiled propaganda machine of the tech industry
This.
Both sides got you to this point.
How much do you blame the people who voted for Trump or other fascists?
Every one who can be dead to me is dead to me.
Those who are unfortunately tied to me by blood or marriage get the minimum of interaction that family dynamics require me to give.
That’s how it will stay.
I blame capitalism for this one. Misinformation and lobbying is very profitable. Using prior knowledge of what laws are coming into effect is also very profitable. Retiring and becoming a lobbyists is also.
In the US hard facts have become debatable and there’s a shitty system that massively benefits two political parties.
I don’t necessarily blame the people since the system is rigged against people’s interest. They get mad and vote anti-establishment which is still very much the establishment.
100%
They knew who they voted
So either they are stupid or they clearly support the morals of trump, wich makes them the bottom of society imo
I blame capitalism. It’s profitable to keep Americans stupid.
As a non-USian viewing all this from the outside, I’d say blaming the people at the bottom for what the largest gaslighting machine in the history of human civilization has managed to achieve is absolutely masochistic.
Your anti-democratic political establishment is to blame for this.
Just as much as I blame people that didn’t vote
I won’t associate with those fascist.
Trump voters knowingly voted for a rapist. That’s not hyperbole. It’s a matter of public record now. I think that’s all that needs to be said.
This is more concerning the replies here, but in this discussion, saying “Trump did X thing, so that’s why it’s the voters fault” is precisely why Trump voters exist. You just flip it and say “Biden has been supporting genocide, that’s all you need to know” and that’s a sufficient argument for Trump voters.
The issue is the amount of fuckups each side had, and while Trump is pretty clearly in the lead (I mean, he’s straight up a felon) to us chronically online people, I don’t know about normies who only watch the news that didn’t get the message through clear enough (not American, so I don’t know), or just use Twitter (which is Musk’s propaganda now, btw) or even other media that just recommend you what you want to see. They probably see constant allegations against the Democrats too.
For what it’s worth, I refuse to watch news networks, and have done for many years now, due to the utter drivel they push, and the breathless, manufactured urgency and false equivalence they habitually resort to. I do my best to source and corroborate things I consume across a broad ideological and geopolitical range. I’m fully aware of the rampant idiocy that Biden stuck to for large swaths of his term (and more broadly, his whole fucking career). As a result of that, I’m not ever going to agree that Trump in any way shape or form improved the situation in Gaza.
If anything, my read on it is that he likely prolonged the slaughter by getting his envoy to push Bibi to time it like this - honestly, it’s… suspiciously convenient for Trump that Bibi agreed to the same fucking thing that was presented the better part of a year ago, and that it just happens to almost exactly align with his inauguration.
This is all just part of Trump trying to project the image that he’ll “fix things on day one”. But he’s incapable of that, and only knows how to sandbag and sabotage shit so the timing makes him look better to his domestic American audience (who often consume stories like this in an uncritical and non-skeptical fashion, which is a tendency Trump is fully aware of and relies on quite consistently).
As did Biden voters, what’s your point?
lol, you again?
Oh right, you were that racist from earlier
lol I see the insult effort has dropped precipitously
Go back to reddit
Even lower effort. Lmao.
🙄
Democrat voters were knowingly voting for literal genocide. This has to be the worlds worst virtue signal.
Oh fucking stop! Trump has ALWAYS been one of Israel’s biggest supporters he’s given Bibi free reign to do whatever the fuck he wants. Stop with the whataboutism already. You people have literally just elected the nazi Party. Admit to your mistake and fucking fix it.
Stop virtue signalling like you have a moral high ground to stand on. Democrats are also the Nazi party. You only like Democrats because you were not the person being slaughtered in their concentration camp and you do not care about anyone but yourself.
I’m not even American! Im just watching the world fall apart because you fucking bible monkeys are too fucking stupid to see the writing on the wall. You just keep banging on the keyboard: WHAT ABOUT GAZA? WHAT ABOUT GAZA?
WHAT ABOUT GAZA?
WHAT ABOUT GAZA?And in doing so have elected litteral fucking fascists who do not plan on having elections in 4 years. And I genuinely would not give a shit what happens to your armpit of a country if it weren’t for the fact that the USA has put itself in such a position that many countries rely on you to keep your shit together and not elect someone who threatens to… Oh I don’t know… INVADE PART OF THE EUROPEAN UNION!
Get your head out of your arse and stop pretending that both candidates are just as bad as each other. Sure by western European standards the Dems were pretty far right, but not like trump. Not like the heritage Foundation. Not like musk!
So you only care about things when they impact you. That is your argument.
Don’t get me wrong, I feel for the civilians in Gaza, but that’s a drop in the ocean compared to what’s coming. Also the ceasefire is specifically in Gaza. Israel is taking this opportunity to soften up the west bank.
Who the fucking care about a random country in middle east when there are bigger things at stakes? get a grip, fuck gaza, israel and all in-between. Nobody gives a shit.
this one said the quiet part out loud
I don’t understand your argument. Are you American? What did you vote for and why? If you are not American what do you gain? Are you active outside of Lemmy? What organizations would you suggest to support?
What is constructive on your style of discourse?
The argument is Democrats are cherry picking the sole bad thing their guy did not do. Then they frame the conversation as if that thing is the only thing that matters
removed, he’s already objectively done more than the Democrats did to reign in Israel, you just don’t realize it because you’re a BlueMAGA fanatic that spent the last year doing everything you could to deny and downplay the genocide that Biden was overseeing.
Jesus Christ, I’m not even American. I couldn’t give less of a shit if it weren’t for the fact that you unhinged motherfuckers are in charge of the largest military in the world and are supposed to hold the russians back. Just remove your head from your colon and fix your mistake.
Not being American make it even worse that you’re a blueMAGA cultist, dumb ass.
he’s already objectively done more than the Democrats did to reign in Israel
How is it not possible for you (all of you who parrot this) to see that Trump tossed you a brief reprieve so you can make EXACTLY this argument? Are you only capable of looking two weeks into the future or something?
As I say every time: Biden was awful for Gaza. Trump is also awful for Gaza, and then he’ll take down as much of the rest of the world and the US with it as he can.
You are literally and transparently doing exactly what Trump wants you to be doing right now, because it legitimizes him.
Israel Invades Jenin Days After Signing Gaza “Ceasefire”
Israeli leaders suggest the operation was plotted during a backroom deal made during Gaza ceasefire vote
Among those killed by Israeli forces on Tuesday was a civilian named Abed Alwahhab Saadi. In footage posted online, he can be seen walking unarmed along an empty road as he suddenly comes under fire and begins to run before being shot and falling face down in the ground. Another shocking video shows a family repeatedly being targeted by gunfire while driving in their car, reportedly killing another civilian, Ahmed Nimer Obeidi.
Medics also came under attack, with at least three doctors and two nurses injured by Israeli gunfire within the first two hours of the invasion. Israeli forces also besieged Al-Amal hospital near the camp and fired live ammunition from its vicinity while obstructing medics from reaching the injured. At the same time, residents described Israeli troops forcibly taking over civilian homes across the city and turning them into makeshift military positions.
Tuesday’s operation came just two days after the start of the “ceasefire” in Gaza, whose first phase is supposed to last for six weeks. Israeli ministers and media reports have suggested the military operations in Jenin and other areas of the West Bank are part of a deal Netanyahu made with his cabinet ahead of the ceasefire in Gaza.
How is it not possible for you (all of you who parrot this) to see that Trump tossed you a brief reprieve so you can make EXACTLY this argument? Are you only capable of looking two weeks into the future or something?
No, I’m not capable of looking two weeks into the future, and neither are you. Currently, the fact is that he secured a ceasefire, proving that Biden was not trying to for the previous year. The rest is just BlueMaga fantasizing about more genocide, because you care more about being right than you do about thousands of dead foreigners.
Biden was awful for Gaza. Trump is also awful for Gaza
I’ve had to listen to a year of you shitlibs bleating endlessly about how important it was to vote blue because they’re the lesser evil, now that it turns out Trump was actually the lesser evil, suddenly you’re abandoning that.
and then he’ll take down as much of the rest of the world and the US with it as he can.
No, he’s not going to “take down the rest of the world”, at least not anymore than the average US president. As for taking down the US: Good! it’s an evil empire that spreads death across the globe and we would be better off without it.
You are literally and transparently doing exactly what Trump wants you to be doing right now, because it legitimizes him.
You people genuinely don’t believe foreigners are human, do you? That’s why you care less about saving thousands of lives than you do about whether Trump looks good or not. I don’t care about the parasocial kayfabe, I care that there’s a ceasefire.
I’ve had to listen to a year of you shitlibs bleating endlessly about how important it was to vote blue because they’re the lesser evil, now that it turns out Trump was actually the lesser evil, suddenly you’re abandoning that.
You’ll find plenty of comments where I acknowledge that Biden and Harris were bad on this issue, so please, don’t put words into my mouth. My position has been the same. Biden/Harris bad on this issue, Trump worse.
You people genuinely don’t believe foreigners are human, do you? That’s why you care less about saving thousands of lives than you do about whether Trump looks good or not.
Maybe in a few months or years you’ll have a better grasp of cause and effect. Those lives aren’t pawns to me, they are pawns to Trump. You’ve seen his opener so far.
No, I’m not capable of looking two weeks into the future, and neither are you.
I’m capable of knowing how Trump operates though through past experience. And so are you, but you have taken the cake he gave you so you have stopped looking.
I already showed you how meaningless his action was - Israel is just killing the same folks but in a different area now. And I guarantee you it’s only the beginning.
You people genuinely don’t believe foreigners are human, do you?
You’re wrong, but it’s a great way to avoid processing any of my words if you insist that’s the case.
You’ll find plenty of comments where I acknowledge that Biden and Harris were bad on this issue, so please, don’t put words into my mouth. My position has been the same. Biden/Harris bad on this issue, Trump worse.
Objectively incorrect
Maybe in a few months or years you’ll have a better grasp of cause and effect. Those lives aren’t pawns to me, they are pawns to Trump. You’ve seen his opener so far.
His opener of securing a ceasefire, something that has upset you so much you’re know constantly fantasizing about how hes totally going to do an even bigger genocide in the future, and getting big bad when people remind you that you can’t actually see the future.
I already showed you how meaningless his action was - Israel is just killing the same folks but in a different area now. And I guarantee you it’s only the beginning.
My god, you really have become so deranged you actually believe you have the ability to see the future. And no, Isreal is not killing nearly as many people, so it’s not meaningless, or it wouldn’t be if you actually cared about the lives of foreigners, but you don’t.
You’re wrong, but it’s a great way to avoid processing any of my words if you insist that’s the case.
Processing your words is how I determined that you don’t consider us human
I want you to explain for me how voting for Trump is - somehow, according to you - not voting for literal genocide.
In point of fact: Trump just removed the (admittedly woefully insufficient) weapon restrictions that were previously being applied to Israel
So far, Trump has already done more to reign in the carnage in Gaza than the Democrats did, BlueMaga types like you only don’t realize that because you were aggressively denying the extent of the genocide under Biden.
Lmao what the actual fuck? Are you being serious? Did you not see the article I posted, or even try to corroborate/disprove it yourself, and then realize that it is a thing, and it’s easy to corroborate?
How deep in the BlueAnon well are you that you think lifting the entirely symbolic ban is more important than securing a fucking ceasefire! Jesus Christ, you people genuinely don’t see us as human, you care more about scoring points against Trump, and you’d rather we all die if it proves you right.
Your refusal to believe or understand facts and context around the negotiation is deeply telling. Just so you understand why we are all continuing to downvote you.
Also:
You were the one describing actual facts as “utter nonsense”
And I understand why you continue to downvote: because you’re so fucking upset that Trump won the election and didn’t continue the genocide that you’ve decided to embrace fantasy and are lashing out at anyone who reminds you of reality.
Like what? Last thing I read he continued shipping heavy weapons that were previously banned from being shipped to Israel and some clown in his cabinet stated that Israël has some sort of holy right to the land. I’m not American and I don’t approve of the democrats way handling it, but the republicans so far seem worse.
He literally secured a ceasefire; you really need to re-examine what news sources you’re consuming if you only heard that he repealed Biden’s entirely symbolic ban on one type of bomb, but somehow managed to miss the ceasefire.
The ceasefire happened before Trump took office
It was secured by Trump envoy.
What did he do?
Secured a ceasefire
Cease fire was negotiated and secured by the Biden administration. Try again.
Edit: or am I misunderstanding what you’re saying?
You aren’t. It’s a .ml account so they are probably just trolling.
No, it was not, it was negotiated by Trump’s envoy. Maybe you should do the smallest amount of research before trying to act like a smug redditer and give away your ignorance
That was under Biden. Try again?
If you did any research, rather than just trying to confirm your own fantasy, you’d know that it was done by Trumps envoy, so drop the smug reddit shithead act and actually look at the facts.
Besides the irrelevant symbolic posturing from Biden being undone, nothing Trump does or will do absolves Biden.
Lets say Trump raped 70 people and Democrats raped 60 people. One cannot say “I would never vote for a rapist”, and then endorse Democrats. Replace the word rape with genocide and multiply the numbers by a thousand.
Voting for trump would’ve been the same. You really think he cares about ending the war in gaza? Like out of the two who do you think would’ve been easier to convince? In my eyes that was definitely Kamala
Well you should get your eyes checked. Kamala also doesn’t care about ending the genocide (not war) in Gaza.
And trump is different how?
He already secured a ceasefire.
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I blame them all to the fullest extent
Fuck anyone who actually voted for trump. Period. Edit: it’s on them to try to redeem themselves
Whether they acted out of malice or ignorance, they bear the same moral culpability for the consequences of their vote. They have a social responsibility to ensure they are informed and vote accordingly; everyone should be able to spot fascism and authoritarianism when they see it.
