I have noticed a huge difference between Lemmygrad and Lemmy.ml in terms of what kinds of theory gets upvoted and downvoted. What is the general vibe on here towards actually existing socialism as well as the ideas towards reformism?
I have noticed a huge difference between Lemmygrad and Lemmy.ml in terms of what kinds of theory gets upvoted and downvoted. What is the general vibe on here towards actually existing socialism as well as the ideas towards reformism?
@ivereadalltheory @CharmingOwl yes MLs are authoritarian, im not sure why this surprises you. Engels wrote about authority quite a lot and id reccomend giving his work ‘on authority’ a look; its at most a ten minute read
tho i have seen my fare share of poor takes coming out of lemmy
I’ve read On Authority. There’s good reason for my identifying as a socialist rather than a ML. I don’t necessarily have a fundamental disagreement with the use of authoritarianism, however the way in which it has ever been implemented has been abominable and the defense of that by most MLs I’ve interacted with leads me to detest them when they’re aware of what they’re doing or assume they’re an idiot who’s fallen to the USSR billboard propaganda aesthetic if they’re not.
… let’s get some historical conditions straight: USSR was a wartime communism born and deformed by Western invasion (from USA and allies, no less) and persisted under a state of seige, so it didn’t have the luxury of a more democratic communism envisioned by Lenin. Even today, aligned with Trotskyist permanent revolution everywhere but their own govts, the same usual suspects are angling by invasion or insurgency to break up and loot Russia (along with China) who isn’t caught off-guard this time. Existential then, existential now.
I would also love to know what you think of the standard bogies of Cuba and Venezuela, or heck, even ML Vietnam or Kerala.
While the west was unquestionably antagonistic. Which you know is sort of a thing that can happen when you unilaterally overthrow a number of countries governments than forcibly annex them.
How in any way does Western antagonism justify those nations treatment of their own people? And how on earth can an anti-democratic uniparty ever be Democratic? Are you trying to convince anyone that there were no gulags etc? Or that it was ever good for dissenters? I mean we could ask all the people that were disappeared or assassinated. Not just in Russia. But in North Korea and China too. Do we need to mention tiananmen square or the Uyghurs? But they’re dead and gone. Cuba I think is a much more nuanced and better example. But still heavily flawed and problematic. You cannot blame it all on Western antagonism. It isn’t some panacea that alleviates you of all fault. Authoritarian communism is antithesis to Marx’s own theory. And will never work in reality. Authoritarianism is always destined to fail. No matter how long it drags on.
As for Uighurs, they’re thriving and developing most rapidly in Xinjiang province, while the Western-backed extremist are indeed no more, exiled to their sponsors. Of course, the West has no problem sponsoring extremists, be it Nazis in Ukraine, Isis (and White Helmets) in Syria, rightwing death squads in the Americas, etc.
In the case of Tiananmen, that was an early colour revolution that got rightly squashed, demonstrating the need for strong government against foreign interventions that China is no stranger to since the 1800s regarding Japan and the West.
Almost forgot to mention, North Korea was bombed almost to oblivion until the USA literally ran out of bombs. Speaks for itself. .
Drop the whataboutism with the west. I agree it has lots of problems. But that doesn’t justify the problems of your authoritarian sect. The treatment of the Ughurs was and is still wrong. Ongoing. It hasn’t magically gotten better
The fact that the protestors in Tienanmen square were planning and expecting the brutal authoritarian government would start bloodshed against them. Doesn’t justify the governments bloodshed. This sort of circular logic is why no one takes you seriously.
And no, that doesn’t speak for itself. It’s been 60, 70 years since then. And a lot of what’s happened since then is on North Korea and the Kim-jeong family. The fake cities being built with no one living in them. The starvation of the people. The brutal repression. Again the west has problems too. But you can’t admonish the west and cheer on the brutal repression of authoritarian regimes of Marxist Leninist oxymoron countries. And not be anything other than a hypocrite.
You realise the USA has its own slave labour gulag unmatched by Russia and China today, right? Though Soviet gulag was ruthless, born to meet rapid wartime industrialisation and unrelenting landowners (kulaks), it was more lax and informal than Auschwitz death camps that you wish to portray.
Meanwhile, Jim Crow and sundown towns in the USA oversaw its own apartheid underclass, many of whom looked to Soviet Russia for equity, Paul Robeson being the most notable.
Whataboutism again. Yes the USA still has slave labor. No it isn’t unmatched by Russia and China. That’s an absurd thing to say. And even then. The US having that doesn’t justify Russia or China for their repression either.
It’s not that the West “was” antagonistic but “is”, while you elide the fact to throw in with Anglo-American CIA and Foreign Office talking points against staple targets of Western aggression: Russia, China, Cuba, and North Korea for good measure. As I said, vanguard of imperialism.
You have unironically exclaimed “how on earth can an anti-democratic uniparty ever be Democratic” (with a capital D, as in party, lol)? When you’re serious about tackling your own govts with the fervour you cheerlead regime change in lesser countries, only then socialism in the collective West could be taken seriously. China and Venezuela have more active democracy and socialism than that.
I’m a Libertarian Marxist. I have no love for the CIA and blame it for a lot of the “WORLDS” problems. The fact that this is what you resort to. Along with the whataboutism and inability to actually explain the bad things that happen in your authoritarian regimes. Really shows how indoctrinated you are.
I don’t have a problem with communism. Just authoritarianism and capitalism. You are both bad. But all you can do is point fingers trying to portray the other as somehow worse. And still failing. I would love nothing more than to see society come together and nationalize basic industry and infrastructure to fulfill societies basic needs. To abolish private property and replace it with a doctrine of personal property. And generally neuter/abolish the ownership class. Without the perpetual slaughter and dungeons.
I am an authoritarian ML who upholds Stalin, Mao and the modern DPRK. I have noticed though a lot of people seem anti-authoritarian here compared to Lemmygrad where I used to host my communities.