Sounds an awful lot like expertise of every protocol in every school to me. It’s not easy to know for sure that some random school in Virginia absolutely does not have any sort of planned ignoring protocol.
Yes, the articles deal with the abstract, they do not specifically lay out every instance of how planned ignoring actually plays out, or exactly how one should draw a line between planned ignoring and genuine neglect in a case like this.
There is no protocol that says to leave a child, nonverbal or otherwise, crying in pain for two hours. The length of time is extremely important context and takes it from “ooh what do I do” which is maybe the first fifteen minutes tops, to criminal neglect.
Sorry if I hit a nerve
Yeah you only implied this person doesn’t know how to take care of their own kids and that your armchair Internet experience is at least as valid as their lived experience 🙄
No, I did not imply this person does not know how to take care of their own child. I implied this person has no idea of what this specific school tells its staff regarding standard procedure, which I still stand by.
There is no fucking protocol that says
Sounds an awful lot like expertise of every protocol in every school to me. It’s not easy to know for sure that some random school in Virginia absolutely does not have any sort of planned ignoring protocol.
It blows my mind that you do not see how saying “expertise in every protocol in every school” strongly implies that this knowledge is necessary to voice an informed opinion on the matter. I don’t need to know every protocol in existence everywhere to know you don’t leave a kid to cry on the floor for two hours. It’s the same as how I don’t have a pilot’s license, but if I see a plane in a tree, I know that someone fucked up. There is no defending this and I really don’t understand why you’re trying to.
Well, I think it’s fairly obvious this passed the line between protocol and neglect
So if you agree this crosses the line into neglect pretty clearly, what are you even trying to say about protocol?
From your latest reply to them:
the school staff were probably trying to follow poor, outdated training principles that did not apply to their actual situation, instead of acting with outright malice
I never said anything about malice, and how is that relevant anyway? If it were malicious I would hope the police would be involved. What I said was, this is criminal neglect, and there’s no protocol in the world that calls to handle this situation this way.
If this had been at home instead of a facility, with the parents ignoring the crying child, CPS would take the kid and the parents might well face charges. Again, two hours. And may I point out, this is a broken femur. That kid wasn’t whimpering. He was screaming himself hoarse.
I’m saying it was likely an error in judgement, a mistake that reflects far more than the mindset of the people actually at fault in it. This was not a home, it was a professional environment wherein people are expected to follow the instructions they were given, even when those instructions are at odds with common sense. Choosing to follow your own common sense over any training you have received can be a fireable offense, even if that training has been misinterpreted and misapplied, perhaps even by those that trained you.
What a load of wank. “Error in judgement”? What about their training, I thought they weren’t supposed to use judgement? /s
Little child, broken femur, two hours; that’s all we need to know. Come up with any hypothetical as to how this happened, and the answer is that it was the responsibility of staff and facility to have it in hand. They failed in that responsibility, staff and facility both. I’m only interested in the “why” and “how” in order to figure out how to prevent this happening again.
The hypothetical isn’t hard, a culture where a guideline is given that children “acting out” isn’t to be rewarded. In a case where a verbal child would be able to say “my leg hurts very badly”, this child was unable to though, so a system that worked fine with previous children became unable to handle this particular circumstance. The only outward evidence that something is genuinely amiss becomes the crying. At what point then, does crying go from “potentially acting out” to “okay, this might be severe bodily damage”?
15 minutes? 30? An hour? This is where the misapplication of training comes in, and where a judgement call did become necessary, as I doubt any specific timetables were actually provided. Two hours is clearly too long, I think we can all agree on that. But staff at schools are usually undersupplied and understaffed, they are under stress and there are other duties that demand their time. This environment can lead to gross errors.
The “why” and “how” is exactly what I’m on as well, since the beginning. It’s going to be more complicated than any sort of simple “wow, those people are really fucked up”.
The teachers were fired. They obviously broke protocol. Can’t just fire teachers without cause.
It sounds like you have no experience dealing with autistic kids or the multiple resources and staff you deal with regarding it. You keep referring to online articles as if they are related to school protocols for some reason. I don’t know why you do this, but here we are.
Well, I think it’s fairly obvious this passed the line between protocol and neglect, it’s also horrible optics for that specific school.
You’re right that I do not have an autistic child, but arguing using sources instead of personal anecdote is pretty common, and generally a good thing, not a bad thing.
I apologize for being short with you. I see these types of mistreatment towards kids on the spectrum often enough and it never stops triggering. When people send me online resource links to “educate” me as if I haven’t read hundreds of articles and resources already, it makes me a bit crabby.
No problem, I understand. I just have this sinking feeling that the school staff were probably trying to follow poor, outdated training principles that did not apply to their actual situation, instead of acting with outright malice, and ended up making an unforgivable mistake due to the errors of the system they were within. We really need to fund our schools better.
Sorry if I hit a nerve.
Sounds an awful lot like expertise of every protocol in every school to me. It’s not easy to know for sure that some random school in Virginia absolutely does not have any sort of planned ignoring protocol.
Yes, the articles deal with the abstract, they do not specifically lay out every instance of how planned ignoring actually plays out, or exactly how one should draw a line between planned ignoring and genuine neglect in a case like this.
There is no protocol that says to leave a child, nonverbal or otherwise, crying in pain for two hours. The length of time is extremely important context and takes it from “ooh what do I do” which is maybe the first fifteen minutes tops, to criminal neglect.
Yeah you only implied this person doesn’t know how to take care of their own kids and that your armchair Internet experience is at least as valid as their lived experience 🙄
No, I did not imply this person does not know how to take care of their own child. I implied this person has no idea of what this specific school tells its staff regarding standard procedure, which I still stand by.
It blows my mind that you do not see how saying “expertise in every protocol in every school” strongly implies that this knowledge is necessary to voice an informed opinion on the matter. I don’t need to know every protocol in existence everywhere to know you don’t leave a kid to cry on the floor for two hours. It’s the same as how I don’t have a pilot’s license, but if I see a plane in a tree, I know that someone fucked up. There is no defending this and I really don’t understand why you’re trying to.
See my most recent comment in the thread between me and that user for my reasoning.
I see it. And this:
So if you agree this crosses the line into neglect pretty clearly, what are you even trying to say about protocol?
From your latest reply to them:
I never said anything about malice, and how is that relevant anyway? If it were malicious I would hope the police would be involved. What I said was, this is criminal neglect, and there’s no protocol in the world that calls to handle this situation this way.
If this had been at home instead of a facility, with the parents ignoring the crying child, CPS would take the kid and the parents might well face charges. Again, two hours. And may I point out, this is a broken femur. That kid wasn’t whimpering. He was screaming himself hoarse.
I’m saying it was likely an error in judgement, a mistake that reflects far more than the mindset of the people actually at fault in it. This was not a home, it was a professional environment wherein people are expected to follow the instructions they were given, even when those instructions are at odds with common sense. Choosing to follow your own common sense over any training you have received can be a fireable offense, even if that training has been misinterpreted and misapplied, perhaps even by those that trained you.
What a load of wank. “Error in judgement”? What about their training, I thought they weren’t supposed to use judgement? /s
Little child, broken femur, two hours; that’s all we need to know. Come up with any hypothetical as to how this happened, and the answer is that it was the responsibility of staff and facility to have it in hand. They failed in that responsibility, staff and facility both. I’m only interested in the “why” and “how” in order to figure out how to prevent this happening again.
The hypothetical isn’t hard, a culture where a guideline is given that children “acting out” isn’t to be rewarded. In a case where a verbal child would be able to say “my leg hurts very badly”, this child was unable to though, so a system that worked fine with previous children became unable to handle this particular circumstance. The only outward evidence that something is genuinely amiss becomes the crying. At what point then, does crying go from “potentially acting out” to “okay, this might be severe bodily damage”?
15 minutes? 30? An hour? This is where the misapplication of training comes in, and where a judgement call did become necessary, as I doubt any specific timetables were actually provided. Two hours is clearly too long, I think we can all agree on that. But staff at schools are usually undersupplied and understaffed, they are under stress and there are other duties that demand their time. This environment can lead to gross errors.
The “why” and “how” is exactly what I’m on as well, since the beginning. It’s going to be more complicated than any sort of simple “wow, those people are really fucked up”.
The teachers were fired. They obviously broke protocol. Can’t just fire teachers without cause.
It sounds like you have no experience dealing with autistic kids or the multiple resources and staff you deal with regarding it. You keep referring to online articles as if they are related to school protocols for some reason. I don’t know why you do this, but here we are.
Well, I think it’s fairly obvious this passed the line between protocol and neglect, it’s also horrible optics for that specific school.
You’re right that I do not have an autistic child, but arguing using sources instead of personal anecdote is pretty common, and generally a good thing, not a bad thing.
I apologize for being short with you. I see these types of mistreatment towards kids on the spectrum often enough and it never stops triggering. When people send me online resource links to “educate” me as if I haven’t read hundreds of articles and resources already, it makes me a bit crabby.
No problem, I understand. I just have this sinking feeling that the school staff were probably trying to follow poor, outdated training principles that did not apply to their actual situation, instead of acting with outright malice, and ended up making an unforgivable mistake due to the errors of the system they were within. We really need to fund our schools better.