• UsernameHere@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    3
    arrow-down
    2
    Ā·
    2 days ago

    Republicans took all 3 branches because they donā€™t criticize their own party. And they attack anyone who does. And they show up to vote no matter what because they donā€™t get apathetic towards their own party.

    • Tinidril@midwest.social
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      arrow-down
      2
      Ā·
      2 days ago

      What planet do you live on? Ever hear of the Lincoln Project? Do you not remember the Republicans throwing out their own Speaker of the House?

      The turnout thing is accurate to a point, but is almost always (intentionally) misunderstood. The more left a voter gets, the more engaged they are, and the more likely they are to show up and vote for Democrats. That has been shown in multiple studies and is well understood even by establishment bobbleheads.

      Itā€™s the vast sea of disengaged and ideologically confused working class Americans that sometimes show up and sometimes donā€™t. We know how to reach these people, and the Democratic establishment just isnā€™t that interested. Their process is to message to these folks just enough to get 51% in swing states. Thatā€™s what keeps the margins so consistently tight, and Republicans win because reality doesnā€™t always conform to Democratic expectations.

      In order to do better, Democrats have to be willing to anger their patrons. Thatā€™s not something they have been willing to do.

      What was unique in this election is that the Republicans managed to pick up a lot of those voters. This election wasnā€™t swung by voter turnout. The unreliable voters turned out, but they turned out for Republicans. Democrats have now officially become the party of the wealthy,band Republicans are now the party of the working class. Thatā€™s obviously an insane disaster, and itā€™s pathetic that anyone is still defending the Democratic establishment.

      • UsernameHere@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        Ā·
        1 day ago

        The more left a voter gets, the more engaged they are, and the more likely they are to show up and vote for Democrats. That has been shown in multiple studies and is well understood even by establishment bobbleheads.

        Care to share those studies?

        Itā€™s the vast sea of disengaged and ideologically confused working class Americans that sometimes show up and sometimes donā€™t.

        Whatā€™s your source for this claim?

        We know how to reach these people, and the Democratic establishment just isnā€™t that interested.

        Whoā€™s ā€œweā€ and what makes you so confident that you know how to reach ā€œthese peopleā€?

        Their process is to message to these folks just enough to get 51% in swing states.

        Whatā€™s your source for this claim?

        In order to do better, Democrats have to be willing to anger their patrons.

        Better in what way?

        The unreliable voters turned out, but they turned out for Republicans.

        Which indicates that these voters wanted someone furthest right. Meanwhile progressives claim the opposite is true: that democrats need to go further left.

        Thatā€™s obviously an insane disaster, and itā€™s pathetic that anyone is still defending the Democratic establishment.

        To not support democrats is to support republicans.

        • Tinidril@midwest.social
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          2
          Ā·
          1 day ago

          Care to share those studies?

          Why? Is your belief that progressives donā€™t show up based on anything but establishment talking points? But sure, Iā€™ll do some work for you. See this Pew study.

          Whoā€™s ā€œweā€ and what makes you so confident that you know how to reach ā€œthese peopleā€?

          Progressives, this, and this.

          Better in what way?

          Um, get votes? I thought that was pretty obvious.

          Which indicates that these voters wanted someone furthest right.

          Or, maybe the political universe canā€™t be captured in a single dimension. Most of the American public (barely) pays attention to politics for 3-4 months every 4 years. They arenā€™t exactly policy wonks. The dominant measure today is populist vs establishment. People donā€™t know what they believe, but they do know that neither party establishment gives two shits about them. They wanted a disruptor, and astoundingly they managed to figure out which candidate that was. Not that Trump will do shit for them, but they will learn that (again) soon enough.

          Meanwhile progressives claim the opposite is true: that democrats need to go further left.

          Do you know where left and right come from? It was the French parliament after the revolution. The left stood with the people, and the right stood with royalty. Democrats need to stand with the people. As I said above, left vs right political theory isnā€™t something that most voters (or politicians if weā€™re being honest) give a shit about. But, with growing inequality and corporate overreach, people do want politicians taking their sides. Trump had more leftist rhetoric than the Democrats.

          To not support democrats is to support republicans.

          Supporting Democrats and supporting the Democratic Establishment are two different things. I donā€™t give a shit about red vs blue, but I know that one party is more assailable than the other, so thatā€™s where I look to make change for a better world.

          • UsernameHere@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            2
            Ā·
            1 day ago

            Why? Is your belief that progressives donā€™t show up based on anything but establishment talking points? But sure, Iā€™ll do some work for you. See this Pew study.

            Nope, itā€™s based on the progressive talking point that democrats lost because Harris wasnā€™t far enough left. Youā€™re not doing work for me. I didnā€™t make the claim. If you canā€™t be bothered to back up your own claims then they arenā€™t worth anything.

            Progressives, this, and this.

            Maybe Iā€™m missing something but I donā€™t see any source for that map. How did they get the numbers? What are the numbers? It just looks like someone colored a bunch of land and put some names on it. Not to mention itā€™s a Reddit post.

            Youā€™re confident that you know how to reach people that wonā€™t vote democrat because of a town hall of Bernie? I must be missing something.

            Um, get votes? I thought that was pretty obvious.

            Iā€™m not going to debate based on assumptions. Use your words.

            Or, maybe the political universe canā€™t be captured in a single dimension.

            Voters chose the candidate furthest to the right, it doesnā€™t get any more conclusive than that when it comes to whether voters want a candidate thatā€™s further left.

            Do you know where left and right come from?

            The origins of left and right dont change anything. Just to be clear, Iā€™d vote for a more progressive candidate. But they wouldnā€™t win in my red state. Moderates have won before though because they get a mix of voters that is larger than just right or left. And if our democracy is on the line then it isnā€™t time to let perfection be the enemy of progress.

            If progressives keep sowing apathy for the Democratic Party then less people will vote democrat and the GOP will keep growing in power. That is, if we get to vote again, considering Trumps rhetoric.

            Supporting Democrats and supporting the Democratic Establishment are two different things. I donā€™t give a shit about red vs blue, but I know that one party is more assailable than the other, so thatā€™s where I look to make change for a better world.

            Same here. But I donā€™t sow apathy for the better option because that gives voters a reason to not vote for that option and it doesnā€™t take a lot of voters staying home to lose an election.

            • Tinidril@midwest.social
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              3
              Ā·
              1 day ago

              itā€™s based on the progressive talking point that democrats lost because Harris wasnā€™t far enough left.

              Is that a talking point? If so, progressives arenā€™t sticking to it very well. I mean, itā€™s true, but only because being further left is also further populist. Progressive analysis is far more extensive than ā€œnot left enoughā€. What you are talking about is a straw man constructed by establishment democrats. You love sources, so show me one progressive arguing this way.

              Youā€™re not doing work for me.

              I am, because this stuff is easy to lookup, and your arguments are nothing but uncritically accepted vibes.

              Maybe Iā€™m missing something but I donā€™t see any source for that map.

              Itā€™s a map of individual donors by county in the 2020 Democratic primary. The reddit link was the first to come up when I searched. Iā€™ll find you a better link as soon as you show me a progressive saying Democrats lost because they werenā€™t left enough.

              Iā€™m not going to debate based on assumptions. Use your words.

              If I have to explain to you that Democrats doing better in elections means getting more votes, Iā€™ll be writing fucking novels. How about using your mind just a little?

              I must be missing something.

              Thatā€™s a little understated. You donā€™t see the significance of the furthest left Democratic candidate getting through to a fox news audience as applicable to the question?

              You really donā€™t get it and, at this point, Iā€™m happy to just leave it that way.

              • UsernameHere@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                3
                Ā·
                edit-2
                13 hours ago

                Is that a talking point? If so, progressives arenā€™t sticking to it very well. I mean, itā€™s true, but only because being further left is also further populist. Progressive analysis is far more extensive than ā€œnot left enoughā€. What you are talking about is a straw man constructed by establishment democrats. You love sources, so show me one progressive arguing this way.

                You say itā€™s true but claim itā€™s a straw man constructed by establishment democrats, which is it? Youā€™re contradicting yourself. Every thread on lemmy regarding Harris losing has someone saying it and now I can add you to the sources since youā€™re saying itā€™s true.

                I am, because this stuff is easy to lookup, and your arguments are nothing but uncritically accepted vibes.

                Thatā€™s not how the burden of proof works. You make the claim, you provide evidence to support the claim. Otherwise your claim is made up. If that needs to be explained to you then Itā€™s no wonder youā€™re posting Reddit threads of screenshots with no sources as a source for your claims.

                Itā€™s a map of individual donors by county in the 2020 Democratic primary. The reddit link was the first to come up when I searched. Iā€™ll find you a better link as soon as you show me a progressive saying Democrats lost because they werenā€™t left enough.

                My source is the comment section of every post on lemmy regarding Harris losing. If I share an article claiming the same youā€™ve already primed the argument that itā€™s an establishment democrat straw man while also admitting itā€™s true.

                If I have to explain to you that Democrats doing better in elections means getting more votes, Iā€™ll be writing fucking novels. How about using your mind just a little?

                This is how people making bad faith arguments move the goalpost. They make vague statements and when they are proven wrong they say they werenā€™t talking about that thing you assumed, they were referring to something else. The only way to prevent this is to call it out and make them be specific about their statements.

                Thatā€™s a little understated. You donā€™t see the significance of the furthest left Democratic candidate getting through to a fox news audience as applicable to the question?

                For that to be applicable to the question, he would have to be the only one that did itā€¦ Harris interviewed on Fox News also.

                So I guess Iā€™m not missing something, you are.

                You really donā€™t get it and, at this point, Iā€™m happy to just leave it that way.

                Iā€™m sure youā€™re happy to run away without any sources to your claims.

                • Tinidril@midwest.social
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  Ā·
                  11 hours ago

                  You say itā€™s true but claim itā€™s a straw man constructed by establishment democrats, which is it?

                  Itā€™s definitionally true that the left says the centrist should move left. Thatā€™s what makes them the left. The actual left analysis over why she lost doesnā€™t begin and end with wanting her to move left. As I said before, mapping voters out on a right to left spectrum is not an accurate representation of voting preferences. Harris campaigning with Liz Cheney was supposed to appeal to right leaning voters but backfired because it fed the narrative of Harris as a warmonger. Meanwhile Trump was coding himself as anti-war. The fact that Trumpā€™s anti-war signaling was bullshit couldnā€™t be effectively countered because Harris had aligned herself with right wing war mongers. She damaged herself with the very same right leaning voters that she was trying to appeal to. Likewise with bragging about support from Wall Street and the nationā€™s CEOs. The theory that doing so would appeal to right leaning voters was misguided because populists on the right hate those people. Harris made herself the candidate of the wealthy, the deep state, and the status quo, everything that Trump has successfully branded himself as opposing. The left is used to Democrats leaning right because thatā€™s been a constant since at least Bill Clinton. But Harris making rightward moves that damaged her with right leaning voters was insanity. The Democratic establishment lives in a bubble that hasnā€™t changed itā€™s modeling since the 90s.

                  You make the claim, you provide evidence to support the claim.

                  Asking for evidence to a claim is fine, but not when done in bad faith. First of all, I am not the only one here making claims.

                  Apathy caused democrats to lose voters in the 2024 election. Sowing more apathy wonā€™t improve voter turnout.

                  Second of all, you are nitpicking half the links I gave, while ignoring what you canā€™t nitpick. You made no acknowledgement of that Pew study at all. I supplied my proof, and my complaint was for having to cast pearls before swine and the shitty way you went about asking for it without providing any evidence of your own claims, or even arguments as to why your claims should be believed.

                  As I said, Iā€™ll be happy to find a better link for you on the fundraising map, as soon as you start providing some evidence for your own bald assertions. Itā€™s not going to be a one way street.

                  This is how people making bad faith arguments move the goalpost

                  Well, you would know bad faith arguments, but thatā€™s hardly applicable in this case. We are talking about how Democrats perform in elections so there is no reasonable ambiguity when I refer to Democrats ā€œdoing betterā€. Thatā€™s the last Iā€™m going to say on this dumb side argument.

                  Harris interviewed on Fox News also.

                  An interview is not a town hall, and I didnā€™t just say that Bernie did a town hall on Fox, I linked to the video. Unlike Harrisā€™ interview, the town hall included a right leaning audience that was responding well to left leaning arguments, which directly addressed what you asked me to address.

                  If you want to move the goalposts and look at just election results, thatā€™s fine. Look into how many voters who split their ticket between AOC and Trump, and what they said when interviewed. You can find your own links until you start supporting your claims with something other than repetition.

                  • UsernameHere@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    Ā·
                    9 hours ago

                    Harris campaigning with Liz Cheney was supposed to appeal to right leaning voters but backfired because it fed the narrative of Harris as a warmonger.

                    No republicans I know have referred to Harris as a warmonger but I have heard complaints from progressives about her stance on Gaza. So your comment implies that her campaigning with Cheney backfired by costing her votes from progressives. Which reinforces what you claim to be an establishment democrat narrative: that an increase amount of progressives didnā€™t vote for Harris in 2024. So youā€™re contradicting yourself again.

                    She damaged herself with the very same right leaning voters that she was trying to appeal to.

                    Again, Iā€™ve only heard complaints from progressives about her stance on the war in Gaza. In my experience republicans only complained about the money being spent in Gaza and Ukraine because they were told that was the cause of inflation.

                    The left is used to Democrats leaning right because thatā€™s been a constant since at least Bill Clinton. But Harris making rightward moves that damaged her with right leaning voters was insanity. The Democratic establishment lives in a bubble that hasnā€™t changed itā€™s modeling since the 90s.

                    Since the 90s there have been 9 presidential elections and democrats have won 5 of them. It makes perfect sense for them to continue with at least some of the strategies that have earned them the majority of elections.

                    Asking for evidence to a claim is fine, but not when done in bad faith. First of all, I am not the only one here making claims.

                    How is asking for evidence done in bad faith? By doing so I found out that there was some truth to your claim that people on the further ends of the political spectrum tend to be more engaged.

                    Also I found out that there was no credibility to your claim that ā€œweā€ know how to reach people and that democrats canā€™t be interested.

                    Second of all, you are nitpicking half the links I gave, while ignoring what you canā€™t nitpick. You made no acknowledgement of that Pew study at all. I supplied my proof, and my complaint was for having to cast pearls before swine and the shitty way you went about asking for it without providing any evidence of your own claims, or even arguments as to why your claims should be believed.

                    I pointed out that a screenshot of a heat map with no legend or any of the required information like quantity of donors or quantity of donations posted on Reddit, is not evidence of anything. Thatā€™s not nitpicking. Thatā€™s telling you what you should already know.

                    The Pew study showed that people furthest left and right on the spectrum were more politically engaged. They defined that as taking more about politics and being more likely to vote. Your claim was that the further left someoneā€™s ideology the more likely they are to vote and vote democrat. I acknowledge the Pew study supports that they are more likely to vote but it doesnā€™t say they vote democrat, they are just as likely to be voting 3rd party.

                    As I said, Iā€™ll be happy to find a better link for you on the fundraising map, as soon as you start providing some evidence for your own bald assertions. Itā€™s not going to be a one way street.

                    What bald assertions are you referring to? I told you why I claimed that progressives didnā€™t show up to vote for Harris. I acknowledge that it is based on anecdotal evidence. You reinforced that anecdotal evidence by saying itā€™s true.

                    Well, you would know bad faith arguments, but thatā€™s hardly applicable in this case. We are talking about how Democrats perform in elections so there is no reasonable ambiguity when I refer to Democrats ā€œdoing betterā€. Thatā€™s the last Iā€™m going to say on this dumb side argument.

                    Yes, this isnā€™t my first day on the internet. For that reason I am familiar with bad faith arguments. ā€œDoing betterā€ could imply a better approval rating, more progressive policies, higher voter turnout, winning over more republican voters, winning over more progressive voters, earning more seats in Congress or the house and on and on. I didnā€™t even put effort into all the different things ā€œdoing betterā€ could refer to but youā€™re getting upset because Iā€™m calling out a common tactic in bad faith arguments.

                    An interview is not a town hall, and I didnā€™t just say that Bernie did a town hall on Fox, I linked to the video. Unlike Harrisā€™ interview, the town hall included a right leaning audience that was responding well to left leaning arguments, which directly addressed what you asked me to address.

                    That ā€œright leaning audienceā€ sure did like his response about trusting scientists when it comes to corona virus and climate change. So the opposite of how a right leaning audience would respond. I live in a red state and there were political ads at this time of politicians killing Dr. Fauci. Those politicians won. This audience is far from ā€œright leaningā€.

                    Even Fox Newsā€™s Bret Baier Admits Harris Outsmarted Him in Interview

                    None of this supports your claim that progressives know how to win over the disengaged voters in the middle of the ideological spectrum.

                    If you want to move the goalposts and look at just election results, thatā€™s fine. Look into how many voters who split their ticket between AOC and Trump, and what they said when interviewed. You can find your own links until you start supporting your claims with something other than repetition.

                    This supports my point about the Pew study you shared: the farthest left voters are more likely to vote, just not necessarily for democrats.

                    Which brings us full circle back to my original point. A remarkable amount of progressives didnā€™t vote for Harris.

                    Split ticket voters offer some bracing lessons for the Democratic Party

                    Thereā€™s the evidence to support the claim.

                    You still havenā€™t supported your original claims.