Crosspost Comment from another related news article:
Don’t tell me that Hamas didn’t know how Israel would react. To keep the hate flowing is the goal of all extremists.
Edit: That Netanyahu openly admitted to support Hamas on some occasions, shows that Hamas AND Netanjahu want each other as permanent enemies: https://kbin.social/m/worldnews@lemmy.ml/t/526488/Anyone-who-wants-to-thwart-the-establishment-of-a-Palestinian
Since many of you seem to think of themselves as having viable solutions for the Israel/Palestine conflict- go ahead: Tell us how Israel should act after this Terrorist Attack.
Please refrain from bad faith arguments and stuff like „Israel should dissolve itself“ (because you and I know, that’s not going to happen)
You’re not talking about whataboutisim you’re doing a whataboutisim. Israel is an apartheid state. If Israel want’s to stop the violence they can get their settlers out of the west bank. They can give back Gaza. Until they get the fuck out of Palestinian land I can’t blame the Palestinians for fighting to get them out.
If Israel want’s to stop the violence they can get their settlers out of the west bank.
Somewhat naive to think that will stop the violence. Israel was withdrawing through the 90s as part of the Oslo Process, which ended with the Second Initifada. There are substantial populations on both sides that want the other side gone from that land completely, and they will take any opportunity to further entrench themselves and stoke conflict.
The US & Israelis were still hoping Arafat would come back to the table until the Intifada broke out. Peace takes time and some weren’t willing to give it the time it needed.
The US & Israelis were still hoping Arafat would come back to the table until the Intifada broke out.
Israel was pretty clear about what they wanted, and that was not a real, self-sufficient Palestinian state. If you need proof of that, take a look at the modern West Bank. Israel actively funded Hamas in the early 90s to weaken the Palestinian peace movement, and would later take many such actions to divide Palestinians and prevent peace from happening.
The last time the Israeli government seriously considered a two-state solution was in 1947.
Israel was pretty clear about what they wanted, and that was not a real, self-sufficient Palestinian state.
And the PLO was established with the aim of eliminating the state of Israel. Times change. I think Arafat and Rabin were serious at the time, but there was simply too much of a gap to bridge. Since then it’s only gotten worse. Yes, Israel funded Hamas, but at the time they were more concerned about the violence of the PLO. I don’t believe the intent was to create a more dangerous enemy as a pretext for war as some are suggesting now, however it was stupid and short-sighted, and blowback is a much more widely recognized phenomenon today than it was then.
Better? No. People much more experienced in negotiation and more knowledgeable of the history than you or I have tried for decades. The Arab League rejected the first offer, which remains to this day the best offer, in a UN vote. They never wanted Israel to exist and they still don’t, and yet it does. Compromise is not a solution here; the British knew that in 1948 when they refused to enforce the partition plan. I hope to be proven wrong some day, but from my perspective, the only solution is for one side to win.
One non-solution would be totalitarian secular governments like Egypt in both Palestine and Israel, and to immediately jail jihaadists and ultra-orthodox who make the slightest suggestion of violence. But instead there’s a flawed democracy in Israel where Likud relies on the violence against Israel to gain support and a jihaadist totalitarian government in Gaza.
You could as easily say israel would stop bombing palestine if hamas stopped doing terrorist attacks but then were just going back 100 years of back and forth tbh.
Point is that if israel did what you said today, the violence towards them would not stop. And just picking one side and unilaterally ignoring everything bad the other side has done is literally just feeding into this shit
You think you said something smart but that music festival took place on stolen land.
Doesn’t make it ok to kill civilians. But yes. That’s what they were doing. They were violently removing the guests of the colonist state invading them.
And speaking of killing civilians didn’t the government of Israel just tell a bunch of civilians where to seek shelter and then immediately bomb that shelter? How very honorable of them
It’s funny how everyone forgets that 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, the vast majority of which are Israeli citizens, and did not have their land stolen. Most of those that fled were listening to the propaganda of the Arab states that the Jews would commit genocide and were hopeful that the forces of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Egypt would commit massive genocide against the Jews, some were fleeing from retribution of their own violent pogroms. Does Israel have shitty politics? Yes. Does Israel need a constitution? Yes. Is it revealing that folks don’t know a damn thing about the actual history of the place when they say Israel is an apartheid state, as Palestinian leadership has, time and again, ruined hope for lasting peace. Fuck Israelis setting up illegal settlements. The fact that Netanyahu actively ignores this/encourages it is atrocious. But to pretend there is anything approaching political unity in Israel is a lie and a farce.
I dk what you think you’re saying but you’re just admitting that Israel kills civilians on purpose. You’re dropping the veil of “human shields” and admitting that Israel is putting the civilians where they know Hamas is so they can use it as an excuse to kill both.
It’s actually because the “refugee camp” is a city of 120,000 people that have been there for 76 years in permanent buildings.
It was struck because militants were firing from it. Yes, there will be civilian casualties while Hamas is hiding in civilian structures. That’s what Hamas does.
Well congratu-fucking-lations, you got the attention of big brother USA now by killing and kidnapping Americans. Hope y’all are prepared for the Gerald R Ford and her CSG, 'cause ready or not, here we come.
With that logic there is no solution and Israel is justified in depopulating Gaza entirely.
OK so just to be clear I said “Israel needs to stop taking what isn’t theirs” and you said “nah they should just kill everyone”. And people still don’t know which side is wrong here?
All I see are people referring to the fact that there are so many comments where people are “praising the attacks,” and “cheering on the slaughter,” yet I haven’t actually seen any. Only comments complaining about them.
I’ve seen people making nuanced points about the realities of the situation there prior to this attack. For maybe 60 years or so. But not a single comment celebrating the attack.
It’s almost as if there’s a coordinated attempt online to frame this situation a certain way, and they are straight up lying about “all of these people cheering the attack on.” Hmmm, wonder why anyone would do that?
I’m talking specifically here on this site. There are attempts to paint anybody critical of Israeli leadership as Hamas-supporting terrorist lovers. If you want to broaden the scope to take in the entire world, sure. What do you think of this?
“RAMALLAH, West Bank — The Israeli police said on Thursday that they were investigating a video that appeared to show young Jewish extremists celebrating the death of a Palestinian toddler in an arson attack last summer.”
Maybe I wasn’t clear enough so I’ll spell it out for you - if you want to look for examples on both sides in the wider world, look and you’ll find them. Once more, I’m talking specifically about comments on this site.
Edit: That Netanyahu openly admitted to support Hamas on some occasions, shows that Hamas AND Netanjahu want each other as permanent enemies: https://kbin.social/m/worldnews@lemmy.ml/t/526488/Anyone-who-wants-to-thwart-the-establishment-of-a-Palestinian
Since many of you seem to think of themselves as having viable solutions for the Israel/Palestine conflict- go ahead: Tell us how Israel should act after this Terrorist Attack.
You just hinted at the start of a possible solution. Israelis need to stop voting for warmongering criminals like Netanyahu who have zero desire to see peace. The people in Gaza? They don’t get to vote.
I’m actually quite positive right now in that regard, like I haven’t been since the fucker killed Rabin: The right-wing vision of security for Israel just blew up in the nation’s face, big time. The IDF was busy backing up settlers harassing Palestinians in the West Bank and thus not on the Gazan border, the whole “antagonise until they give up” approach binds resources needed to actually provide security. Also, Palestinians don’t show any signs of giving up.
If the left goes in with a “security, checkpoints, de-settlement and de-escalation” policy (of course in addition to lowering pudding prices) they might just take the Knesset wholesale.
Because one thing is rather curious about Israel: While the people pretty much bought the ring-wing security vision, that didn’t mean an overall shift to the right. And the seeds for the “we bred that monster” type insights are definitely already there in the Israeli press, even if formulated cautiously. Ultimately the whole current military situation has to be over with before actual politics happen.
Since Netanyahu and Hamas are the principal belligerents, I say send in a few SEALs to arrest them, and make them do “Hell in a Cell” in the middle of the desert, till they all die of exposure.
I’m aware this won’t happen, but that seems to be the immediate solution here, since as you so rightly pointed out, the leadership on both sides just wants the conflict to continue ad infinitum
Yeah Hamas and Israel are both insane, don’t see a solution that doesn’t involve giving Palestine land back and people electing moderate governments, but none of the foreign interests want that and neither do influential domestic factions. The most predictable blowback ever.
Here’s a fun whataboutist comparison: Two countries are currently in the efforts of stealing the territory of their neighbors, one though apartheid regime and slow claims to land, the other through a “military exercise.” Many in the west cheer on the deaths of Russian civilians because they are allegedly complicit in the war, they’re called “orks.” In Israel’s case their civilians are viewed as innocent victims, what is the difference? I think there are some valid differences but it does highlight some hypocrisy. I don’t think any civilian deaths are justified in these conflicts, whether committed by either side.
Many in the west cheer on the deaths of Russian civilians because they are allegedly complicit in the war, they’re called “orks.”
There’s a detail here that is wrong. “Orcs” is the name that has been given to the occupying Russian soldiers in Ukraine, for obvious reasons. Not civilians.
I don’t really know anything about the situation beyond the 10 minute explainer I watched on youtube.
It’s practically a holy war that’s raged for millennia though - I don’t think there are “solutions”, I think the goal is just to dial back the ferocity of the feud a few notches.
That 10 minute explainer did you a disservice I think. That holy war concept is a really vague way of describing why there has been conflict in the region for that breadth of time. But it doesnt really address the Israel-Palestinian conflict so much as it provides a smokescreen for the last 100 years of political maneuvers by the various Allied powers of WW1 and WW2 with the British and French first, then America since.
Worse than deliberately cutting off an entire population’s water supply? As to which army, as always a multinational taskforce. Yes the UN is not perfect but just letting them commit atrocities over and over isn’t exactly working out.
Except every time the UN attempts to even condemn Israel’s illegal settlements and war crimes, the US vetoes it. Because we have that power for some reason.
“Hey, we took a bunch of your land and we have repeatedly violated our previous agreements not to take more, but hey, take this shitty land in return for a bunch of concessions from your side. We promise that this time we won’t violate our agreement. Promise!”
Another paraphrase:
You’re one of two brothers. Shortly after your father’s death, your brother gains access to your elderly father’s bank account and plunders it. You take them to court to seek justice, but the judge is a friend of your sister-in-law. Despite the evidence being overwhelmingly in your favor, the judge rules against you. You appeal to a higher court and the case is pending. Your brother approaches you and offers you 10% of the money but you must sign away your rights to inherit any more of the money and the rest of the estate.
It’s just wild: if you change the context of the narrative, almost any reasonable person would say one party is absolutely the aggressor, but a bunch of propagandists like you have pushed an alternative narrative that the no-critical-thinking crowd eats right up.
It’s almost as if there are good reasons why they haven’t made peace yet. Dare I suggest that those reasons are beyond the fixing skills of internet forum users.
Crosspost Comment from another related news article:
Don’t tell me that Hamas didn’t know how Israel would react. To keep the hate flowing is the goal of all extremists.
Edit: That Netanyahu openly admitted to support Hamas on some occasions, shows that Hamas AND Netanjahu want each other as permanent enemies: https://kbin.social/m/worldnews@lemmy.ml/t/526488/Anyone-who-wants-to-thwart-the-establishment-of-a-Palestinian
Since many of you seem to think of themselves as having viable solutions for the Israel/Palestine conflict- go ahead: Tell us how Israel should act after this Terrorist Attack.
Please refrain from bad faith arguments and stuff like „Israel should dissolve itself“ (because you and I know, that’s not going to happen)
There is no solution where Israel is allowed to continue forcing Palestinians from their homes. But hey, colonizers gotta colonize.
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If that happens the history books will refer to it as the Palestinian Holocaust
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You’re not talking about whataboutisim you’re doing a whataboutisim. Israel is an apartheid state. If Israel want’s to stop the violence they can get their settlers out of the west bank. They can give back Gaza. Until they get the fuck out of Palestinian land I can’t blame the Palestinians for fighting to get them out.
Somewhat naive to think that will stop the violence. Israel was withdrawing through the 90s as part of the Oslo Process, which ended with the Second Initifada. There are substantial populations on both sides that want the other side gone from that land completely, and they will take any opportunity to further entrench themselves and stoke conflict.
Look at the Israeli terms of the Camp David summit and you’ll get why the Intifada happened. These are terms no self-respecting state would accept.
The US & Israelis were still hoping Arafat would come back to the table until the Intifada broke out. Peace takes time and some weren’t willing to give it the time it needed.
Israel was pretty clear about what they wanted, and that was not a real, self-sufficient Palestinian state. If you need proof of that, take a look at the modern West Bank. Israel actively funded Hamas in the early 90s to weaken the Palestinian peace movement, and would later take many such actions to divide Palestinians and prevent peace from happening.
The last time the Israeli government seriously considered a two-state solution was in 1947.
And the PLO was established with the aim of eliminating the state of Israel. Times change. I think Arafat and Rabin were serious at the time, but there was simply too much of a gap to bridge. Since then it’s only gotten worse. Yes, Israel funded Hamas, but at the time they were more concerned about the violence of the PLO. I don’t believe the intent was to create a more dangerous enemy as a pretext for war as some are suggesting now, however it was stupid and short-sighted, and blowback is a much more widely recognized phenomenon today than it was then.
You got a better solution?
Better? No. People much more experienced in negotiation and more knowledgeable of the history than you or I have tried for decades. The Arab League rejected the first offer, which remains to this day the best offer, in a UN vote. They never wanted Israel to exist and they still don’t, and yet it does. Compromise is not a solution here; the British knew that in 1948 when they refused to enforce the partition plan. I hope to be proven wrong some day, but from my perspective, the only solution is for one side to win.
One non-solution would be totalitarian secular governments like Egypt in both Palestine and Israel, and to immediately jail jihaadists and ultra-orthodox who make the slightest suggestion of violence. But instead there’s a flawed democracy in Israel where Likud relies on the violence against Israel to gain support and a jihaadist totalitarian government in Gaza.
I dk man, sounds like a cop out. I’m pretty sure if Israel just stopped doing war crimes hamas would eventually lose support in Palestine.
Laying back and embracing the final solution your proposing just doesn’t seem like the right call.
You could as easily say israel would stop bombing palestine if hamas stopped doing terrorist attacks but then were just going back 100 years of back and forth tbh.
Point is that if israel did what you said today, the violence towards them would not stop. And just picking one side and unilaterally ignoring everything bad the other side has done is literally just feeding into this shit
Oh is that what they were doing at the music festival?
You think you said something smart but that music festival took place on stolen land.
Doesn’t make it ok to kill civilians. But yes. That’s what they were doing. They were violently removing the guests of the colonist state invading them.
And speaking of killing civilians didn’t the government of Israel just tell a bunch of civilians where to seek shelter and then immediately bomb that shelter? How very honorable of them
It’s funny how everyone forgets that 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, the vast majority of which are Israeli citizens, and did not have their land stolen. Most of those that fled were listening to the propaganda of the Arab states that the Jews would commit genocide and were hopeful that the forces of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Egypt would commit massive genocide against the Jews, some were fleeing from retribution of their own violent pogroms. Does Israel have shitty politics? Yes. Does Israel need a constitution? Yes. Is it revealing that folks don’t know a damn thing about the actual history of the place when they say Israel is an apartheid state, as Palestinian leadership has, time and again, ruined hope for lasting peace. Fuck Israelis setting up illegal settlements. The fact that Netanyahu actively ignores this/encourages it is atrocious. But to pretend there is anything approaching political unity in Israel is a lie and a farce.
All I took from that was “the Arab states told Palestinians that [Israel] would commit genocide” and they were right.
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They told them to go to a city and then bombed where Hamas was, which was also in that city.
I dk what you think you’re saying but you’re just admitting that Israel kills civilians on purpose. You’re dropping the veil of “human shields” and admitting that Israel is putting the civilians where they know Hamas is so they can use it as an excuse to kill both.
Not even remotely.
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It was struck because militants were firing from it. Yes, there will be civilian casualties while Hamas is hiding in civilian structures. That’s what Hamas does.
Well congratu-fucking-lations, you got the attention of big brother USA now by killing and kidnapping Americans. Hope y’all are prepared for the Gerald R Ford and her CSG, 'cause ready or not, here we come.
Lol America isn’t getting militarily involved in this one
Kinda too late for that considering we essentially finance the IDF.
So what’s the Gerald R Ford Carrier Strike Group doing in the Eastern Mediterranean?
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OK so just to be clear I said “Israel needs to stop taking what isn’t theirs” and you said “nah they should just kill everyone”. And people still don’t know which side is wrong here?
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In what world does someone saying “hey you can’t steal my house” justify you to murder them?
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All I see are people referring to the fact that there are so many comments where people are “praising the attacks,” and “cheering on the slaughter,” yet I haven’t actually seen any. Only comments complaining about them.
I’ve seen people making nuanced points about the realities of the situation there prior to this attack. For maybe 60 years or so. But not a single comment celebrating the attack.
It’s almost as if there’s a coordinated attempt online to frame this situation a certain way, and they are straight up lying about “all of these people cheering the attack on.” Hmmm, wonder why anyone would do that?
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Funny, the last guy who claimed this couldn’t produce any evidence, it’s almost like you’re gaslighting.
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I’m talking specifically here on this site. There are attempts to paint anybody critical of Israeli leadership as Hamas-supporting terrorist lovers. If you want to broaden the scope to take in the entire world, sure. What do you think of this?
“RAMALLAH, West Bank — The Israeli police said on Thursday that they were investigating a video that appeared to show young Jewish extremists celebrating the death of a Palestinian toddler in an arson attack last summer.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/25/world/middleeast/ali-dawabsheh-arson-death-israel-wedding-video.html
Well, this seems like it’s an excellent example of the fundamental difference between Israel and Palestine.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-extremist-handed-3-life-sentences-over-fatal-duma-arson-in-2015/
More cynically speaking though, I find it probable that they were sentenced mostly because this became a high profile case. But at least they were.
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Maybe I wasn’t clear enough so I’ll spell it out for you - if you want to look for examples on both sides in the wider world, look and you’ll find them. Once more, I’m talking specifically about comments on this site.
How do I rename you to “bad summary bot”?
You just hinted at the start of a possible solution. Israelis need to stop voting for warmongering criminals like Netanyahu who have zero desire to see peace. The people in Gaza? They don’t get to vote.
I’m actually quite positive right now in that regard, like I haven’t been since the fucker killed Rabin: The right-wing vision of security for Israel just blew up in the nation’s face, big time. The IDF was busy backing up settlers harassing Palestinians in the West Bank and thus not on the Gazan border, the whole “antagonise until they give up” approach binds resources needed to actually provide security. Also, Palestinians don’t show any signs of giving up.
If the left goes in with a “security, checkpoints, de-settlement and de-escalation” policy (of course in addition to lowering pudding prices) they might just take the Knesset wholesale.
Because one thing is rather curious about Israel: While the people pretty much bought the ring-wing security vision, that didn’t mean an overall shift to the right. And the seeds for the “we bred that monster” type insights are definitely already there in the Israeli press, even if formulated cautiously. Ultimately the whole current military situation has to be over with before actual politics happen.
Since Netanyahu and Hamas are the principal belligerents, I say send in a few SEALs to arrest them, and make them do “Hell in a Cell” in the middle of the desert, till they all die of exposure.
I’m aware this won’t happen, but that seems to be the immediate solution here, since as you so rightly pointed out, the leadership on both sides just wants the conflict to continue ad infinitum
Yeah Hamas and Israel are both insane, don’t see a solution that doesn’t involve giving Palestine land back and people electing moderate governments, but none of the foreign interests want that and neither do influential domestic factions. The most predictable blowback ever.
Here’s a fun whataboutist comparison: Two countries are currently in the efforts of stealing the territory of their neighbors, one though apartheid regime and slow claims to land, the other through a “military exercise.” Many in the west cheer on the deaths of Russian civilians because they are allegedly complicit in the war, they’re called “orks.” In Israel’s case their civilians are viewed as innocent victims, what is the difference? I think there are some valid differences but it does highlight some hypocrisy. I don’t think any civilian deaths are justified in these conflicts, whether committed by either side.
What Russian civilians are being killed??
There’s a detail here that is wrong. “Orcs” is the name that has been given to the occupying Russian soldiers in Ukraine, for obvious reasons. Not civilians.
I don’t really know anything about the situation beyond the 10 minute explainer I watched on youtube.
It’s practically a holy war that’s raged for millennia though - I don’t think there are “solutions”, I think the goal is just to dial back the ferocity of the feud a few notches.
Both sides should start by not doing war crimes.
That 10 minute explainer did you a disservice I think. That holy war concept is a really vague way of describing why there has been conflict in the region for that breadth of time. But it doesnt really address the Israel-Palestinian conflict so much as it provides a smokescreen for the last 100 years of political maneuvers by the various Allied powers of WW1 and WW2 with the British and French first, then America since.
Literally nobody told you that. I guarantee all you’ve seen up to this point are people saying exactly what you’re saying.
🦜
They can’t solve this problem themselves. The UN has to step in as per my other comment. The no-state solution.
Whose army is going to disarm them? You have a lot of faith in the U.N here to not fuck this up even worse than it is now
Worse than deliberately cutting off an entire population’s water supply? As to which army, as always a multinational taskforce. Yes the UN is not perfect but just letting them commit atrocities over and over isn’t exactly working out.
Except every time the UN attempts to even condemn Israel’s illegal settlements and war crimes, the US vetoes it. Because we have that power for some reason.
Bro Israelis historically were the first to bomb civilian targets, if we’re going to analyze it you have to start before the ottoman empire.
I think all the Palestinians should move to Iran.
Oh yeah? Who is going to pay for that?
Mexico
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“Hey, we took a bunch of your land and we have repeatedly violated our previous agreements not to take more, but hey, take this shitty land in return for a bunch of concessions from your side. We promise that this time we won’t violate our agreement. Promise!”
Another paraphrase: You’re one of two brothers. Shortly after your father’s death, your brother gains access to your elderly father’s bank account and plunders it. You take them to court to seek justice, but the judge is a friend of your sister-in-law. Despite the evidence being overwhelmingly in your favor, the judge rules against you. You appeal to a higher court and the case is pending. Your brother approaches you and offers you 10% of the money but you must sign away your rights to inherit any more of the money and the rest of the estate.
It’s just wild: if you change the context of the narrative, almost any reasonable person would say one party is absolutely the aggressor, but a bunch of propagandists like you have pushed an alternative narrative that the no-critical-thinking crowd eats right up.
It’s almost as if there are good reasons why they haven’t made peace yet. Dare I suggest that those reasons are beyond the fixing skills of internet forum users.
Naah, just kidding. We can fix this.
You’re implying Palestinians are violent by nature. That’s racist as fuck, dude.