“Bethesda covers its arse in anticipation of a bunch of terminally online American teenagers who just learnt the word ‘nazi’ and would use it to describe a fuckin nun if it made them feel a bit morally superior for ten seconds”
I’ve heard plenty of people try to say WOLFENSTEIN glorifies nazis
I’ve had one idiot tell me ANY media that paints them as competent or successful is glorifying them. And setting anything in a world where they succeeded and progressed technologically instead of collapsing is basically saying Hitler’s world view is valid.
I still don’t know how to respond to that beyond “if you think the nazis were incompetent you don’t know history, and if you think showing a future where fascism took hold is unrealistic I have some bad news for you”
It’s fantasy, and specifically a fantasy in which you get to go on a massive killing spree against some of the worst people in history, how you can somehow pull “this game is making these guys look good” from that, I’m not sure.
If they think that, they may have a problem with what they consider glorified. They may want to avoid recognizing parallels that are far more personal to them.
If they didn’t have at least a few competent nazis, they wouldn’t have been such a threat; WW2 would be over in a month. I’m sure there were even competent Talibans and North Koreans.
It should be noted that a lot of their blunders later in the war can be traced back to Hitler (or one of his sycophants) getting involved and overruling far more experienced Generals, many of whom were not party members. It could also be argued that the economy they set up, while impressive given the state of Germany post-WWI, was an entirely unsustainable war economy that relied very heavily on slave labor. That’s not to say they were completely incompetent, but they did vastly overestimate their own abilities and made many mistakes as a result.
It’s worse than that. Hitler’s entire economic plan relied on heavily burrowing money from other countries with the intent to pay it back with money plundered from conquered nations.
As for the people having better lives, well, not really. Earnings increased for workers but mainly from working even longer hours. The actual hourly wage fell on the level of the Great Depression. And due to less imported goods, consumer products like food and clothing also had to be rationed.
Who was better off by a lot however were large cartels and monopolies crushing small businesses thanks to the eridications of unions and, later, forced labor in the concentration camps.
So, while the (war) economy did boom, that didn’t really translate to better lives for common people (even before the war started).
Indeed, they made plenty of mistakes, otherwise they would have won the war.
But it’s less about whether they could have sustained their empire afterward and more people trying to say that portraying them as such is “glorifying” them or propping them up in some sort of idealistic way.
Indeed, they made plenty of mistakes, otherwise they would have won the war.
Therein lies the problem, because even if they somehow executed an absolutely perfect strategy they would not have won the war, not in the long run at least. I agree that Wolfenstein doesn’t glorify them since its reasoning for them winning is outlandish sci-fi technology, but a lot of media that assumes they could have won is glorifying, even if indirectly.
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not weakness, that is life.” - Jean-Luc Picard
You make valid points. I know I’ve heard enough people who start off with “the nazis sure were bad, BUT…” and proceed to fangirl over every technological achievement made by Germany, even those that came after the allies.
There’s certainly a line where it goes from “fantasy parody of real life” to “someone wrote a fan fiction about the fourth Reich and clearly has a crush on Hitler whether they want to admit it or not”
Literally the only way they would have conquered the world is through the wonders of “Sci Fi Magic Bullshit” ™️
Here’s my problem with wolfenstein. The daat yichud or whatever was a little too close to the secret Jewish cabal that real life Hitler believed/claimed was working behind the scenes manipulating society for is own gains. I don’t think the series is pro Nazi, I’d have to be stupid to believe that, but I feel this particular plot point was a little tone deaf in a historical context.
But their while point was that they were super-smarties who made shit through communion with God directly, and the devices they made weren’t to be used
They’re an ancient Jewish group yes, but otherwise nothing at all like Hitler’s cabal bullshit and way closer to something like an ancient “secret cult”, made Jewish because it’s a series about the Nazis and them only winning due to Jewish technology (and also losing eventually because of it) is part of the catharsis of the whole thing
I read them a lot more like a group of ancient nerds. Which describes Jewish people pretty well if the friends ive had in the faith are anything to go by
I guess I kinda get your point but it feels so explicitly cathartic to make what IRL we credit to Nazis usually (in media their magic is usually them diving sadistically into what others won’t, for example) that I think it’s the opposite of tone deaf
…a whole shitload of things exist? Everything from microwave ovens, to nasa space rockets, to jet engines? Shit! If the nazis weren’t so god damned evil they would have been pretty awesome…but they aren’t. You know, because of the whole evil facist racists thing.
But damn they knew how to invent stuff, and have stylish military uniforms while doing so.
I’ve had one idiot tell me ANY media that paints them as competent or successful is glorifying them. And setting anything in a world where they succeeded and progressed technologically instead of collapsing is basically saying Hitler’s world view is valid.
And people still wonder why I pick so much on the wishful thinking fallacy… I mean, that’s basically it, right? “Nazi are morally bad, I hate them, thus they must be incompetent”. And if you correctly highlight that this is fucking stupid, you’ll get some kid saying stuff like “I dun understand, why are you defending Nazi?”.
You’re misunderstanding the argument, but that’s just the nature of brief forum exchanges.
Think of it as a continuous depiction of the Nazis as hyper-competent or full of geniuses unintentionally playing into the supremacy narrative, even when Joe Everyman is gunning them down. I don’t agree that Wolfenstein is pro-Nazi but it is a factor in public perception that creators need to consider when repeated in a hundred different games or movies.
Even just repeating things like “At least Mussolini made the trains run on time” plays into it, especially when it’s a lie, just like the Wunderwaffe programs or the Nazi “miraculous economic recovery” which was just making people work longer hours and deficit spending.
Backtrack to Miles O’Brien’s comment. They’re clearly talking about individual depictions, and my comment focuses on that. To assume that people with shitty worldviews must be necessarily incompetent is wishful thinking.
The reason why the Nazi worldview is invalid has jack shit to do with efficiency or competence, it’s as simple as “that worldview oppresses the lives of innocent people into living hells”.
In the meantime you’re talking about the social impact of continuous, somewhat consistent-ish depictions of the Nazi in media, not individual depictions. What you’re saying is valid but another can of worms.
Even just repeating things like “At least Mussolini made the trains run on time” plays into it, especially when it’s a lie, just like the Wunderwaffe programs or the Nazi “miraculous economic recovery” which was just making people work longer hours and deficit spending.
Note that, if people are less eager to play along that fallacy, this sort of argument doesn’t roll any more. Suddenly if Merdolini made the trains run on time or not doesn’t matter, and can be safely called out as a distraction. Just like the Nazi economic recovery.
“Bethesda covers its arse in anticipation of a bunch of terminally online American teenagers who just learnt the word ‘nazi’ and would use it to describe a fuckin nun if it made them feel a bit morally superior for ten seconds”
I’ve heard plenty of people try to say WOLFENSTEIN glorifies nazis
I’ve had one idiot tell me ANY media that paints them as competent or successful is glorifying them. And setting anything in a world where they succeeded and progressed technologically instead of collapsing is basically saying Hitler’s world view is valid.
I still don’t know how to respond to that beyond “if you think the nazis were incompetent you don’t know history, and if you think showing a future where fascism took hold is unrealistic I have some bad news for you”
It’s fantasy, and specifically a fantasy in which you get to go on a massive killing spree against some of the worst people in history, how you can somehow pull “this game is making these guys look good” from that, I’m not sure.
Maybe it’s a skill issue. They never could make it past level one so the nazis are programmed to be too good!
If they think that, they may have a problem with what they consider glorified. They may want to avoid recognizing parallels that are far more personal to them.
If they didn’t have at least a few competent nazis, they wouldn’t have been such a threat; WW2 would be over in a month. I’m sure there were even competent Talibans and North Koreans.
It should be noted that a lot of their blunders later in the war can be traced back to Hitler (or one of his sycophants) getting involved and overruling far more experienced Generals, many of whom were not party members. It could also be argued that the economy they set up, while impressive given the state of Germany post-WWI, was an entirely unsustainable war economy that relied very heavily on slave labor. That’s not to say they were completely incompetent, but they did vastly overestimate their own abilities and made many mistakes as a result.
It’s worse than that. Hitler’s entire economic plan relied on heavily burrowing money from other countries with the intent to pay it back with money plundered from conquered nations.
As for the people having better lives, well, not really. Earnings increased for workers but mainly from working even longer hours. The actual hourly wage fell on the level of the Great Depression. And due to less imported goods, consumer products like food and clothing also had to be rationed.
Who was better off by a lot however were large cartels and monopolies crushing small businesses thanks to the eridications of unions and, later, forced labor in the concentration camps.
So, while the (war) economy did boom, that didn’t really translate to better lives for common people (even before the war started).
Indeed, they made plenty of mistakes, otherwise they would have won the war.
But it’s less about whether they could have sustained their empire afterward and more people trying to say that portraying them as such is “glorifying” them or propping them up in some sort of idealistic way.
Therein lies the problem, because even if they somehow executed an absolutely perfect strategy they would not have won the war, not in the long run at least. I agree that Wolfenstein doesn’t glorify them since its reasoning for them winning is outlandish sci-fi technology, but a lot of media that assumes they could have won is glorifying, even if indirectly.
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not weakness, that is life.” - Jean-Luc Picard
You make valid points. I know I’ve heard enough people who start off with “the nazis sure were bad, BUT…” and proceed to fangirl over every technological achievement made by Germany, even those that came after the allies.
There’s certainly a line where it goes from “fantasy parody of real life” to “someone wrote a fan fiction about the fourth Reich and clearly has a crush on Hitler whether they want to admit it or not”
Literally the only way they would have conquered the world is through the wonders of “Sci Fi Magic Bullshit” ™️
Well, that or America not electing FDR in 1936.
Here’s my problem with wolfenstein. The daat yichud or whatever was a little too close to the secret Jewish cabal that real life Hitler believed/claimed was working behind the scenes manipulating society for is own gains. I don’t think the series is pro Nazi, I’d have to be stupid to believe that, but I feel this particular plot point was a little tone deaf in a historical context.
But their while point was that they were super-smarties who made shit through communion with God directly, and the devices they made weren’t to be used
They’re an ancient Jewish group yes, but otherwise nothing at all like Hitler’s cabal bullshit and way closer to something like an ancient “secret cult”, made Jewish because it’s a series about the Nazis and them only winning due to Jewish technology (and also losing eventually because of it) is part of the catharsis of the whole thing
I read them a lot more like a group of ancient nerds. Which describes Jewish people pretty well if the friends ive had in the faith are anything to go by
I guess I kinda get your point but it feels so explicitly cathartic to make what IRL we credit to Nazis usually (in media their magic is usually them diving sadistically into what others won’t, for example) that I think it’s the opposite of tone deaf
How exactly does he think…
checks list
…a whole shitload of things exist? Everything from microwave ovens, to nasa space rockets, to jet engines? Shit! If the nazis weren’t so god damned evil they would have been pretty awesome…but they aren’t. You know, because of the whole evil facist racists thing.
But damn they knew how to invent stuff, and have stylish military uniforms while doing so.
And people still wonder why I pick so much on the wishful thinking fallacy… I mean, that’s basically it, right? “Nazi are morally bad, I hate them, thus they must be incompetent”. And if you correctly highlight that this is fucking stupid, you’ll get some kid saying stuff like “I dun understand, why are you defending Nazi?”.
You’re misunderstanding the argument, but that’s just the nature of brief forum exchanges.
Think of it as a continuous depiction of the Nazis as hyper-competent or full of geniuses unintentionally playing into the supremacy narrative, even when Joe Everyman is gunning them down. I don’t agree that Wolfenstein is pro-Nazi but it is a factor in public perception that creators need to consider when repeated in a hundred different games or movies.
Even just repeating things like “At least Mussolini made the trains run on time” plays into it, especially when it’s a lie, just like the Wunderwaffe programs or the Nazi “miraculous economic recovery” which was just making people work longer hours and deficit spending.
I’m not. We’re talking about different things.
Backtrack to Miles O’Brien’s comment. They’re clearly talking about individual depictions, and my comment focuses on that. To assume that people with shitty worldviews must be necessarily incompetent is wishful thinking.
The reason why the Nazi worldview is invalid has jack shit to do with efficiency or competence, it’s as simple as “that worldview oppresses the lives of innocent people into living hells”.
In the meantime you’re talking about the social impact of continuous, somewhat consistent-ish depictions of the Nazi in media, not individual depictions. What you’re saying is valid but another can of worms.
Note that, if people are less eager to play along that fallacy, this sort of argument doesn’t roll any more. Suddenly if Merdolini made the trains run on time or not doesn’t matter, and can be safely called out as a distraction. Just like the Nazi economic recovery.
I take your point but I wouldn’t class nuns as the ideal opposing example to Nazis, either.
EDIT: And yes, I know I’m doing the thing.
Putting the “God” in Godwin’s law