What I have learned:
- Russia has already won the Ukraine war
- Which NATO started
- A lot of people in the West think that Ukraine should surrender
- Also Ukraine was the world’s main provider of CSAM
- Also Ukraine is exploited by the West but if they can unite with Russia then their economy and everything else will finally be alright
It’s literally like a bizarro world and everyone is over there agreeing with it. I’m genuinely confused by, who even are these people (what is the mixture of Russian bots / Russian-aligned ordinary people / confused Westerners / some other explanation.)
There is no coherent ideology over there besides “America/the West/capitalism should be destroyed.” Dudes would rather Pol Pot be in charge than Joe Biden.
Last part is true and even more insane/sad because these people are all terminally online gossip mongers that Pol Pot would have immediately executed.
You own a computer? You don’t work in the fields? You wear glasses?
Yep, literally executed.
This is satire, right? Nobody over there glorifies or likes Pol Pot.
Not even remotely satire, and you might notice I never said anyone over there “glorified or likes Pol Pot.” Back in my early Lemmy days I spent way too much time on Hexbear trying to understand, and repeatedly was told that any communist dictator, no matter how heinous, from any time in history would be preferable to any US president. They twisted in knots denying any atrocities by communists while at it. They were clear they don’t particularly like Putin, Xi, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc, but would prefer their leadership in every case over US leadership
This is just… not representative of any opinion on Hexbear in it’s entire history. But feel free to lie.
It absolutely is. You can search up pol pot here in the community.
That’s… a single post, without the user or even vote count shown.
you can search it up yourself then, but we both know you won’t care
Lmao hello from the future
Seethe about it
I recently had a stray gradbear challenge me to show them any link that said Pol Pot was the shit (then he’d quit the fediverse)
They have this theorem on ‘actual real world communism’ where you’re the weakbear if you like book communism but dare to speak ill of said regimes
You should post that! if it’s good
More than once I have seen the same person express both “America is evil and the whole system needs to be destroyed” and also “Joe Biden is bad for the country and I can’t support him”, and asked the person, well if you think America is bad and Biden is harming the country, doesn’t that mean you should support him being in charge, so he can do more damage to this evil thing?
No, they know that Donald is worse for the country. They want Donald in there so America collapses faster. They want China and Russia to expand.
I don’t even think they are accelerationists at this point. I think they are all either information warfare operatives or useful idiots. The hexbear admin has essentially admitted to this.
And Hexbear gets really awkward when you call them out on wanting the Donald.
How so? Because they don’t want Donald Trump either.
I would LOVE to find a non deranged communist forum but like I said on another comment, I have yet to encounter one which does not make me vomit all over the screen after I see them celebrating bloodshed in Ukraine and masturbating to the idea of an independent sovereign nation being crushed by brutal, authoritarian, and savage state.
It’s heartbreaking that people seeking an ideology with genuinely noble intentions turn into such violent loons. On hexbear (and co) I think they are genuinely mostly from the west but try so hard to stick it to US imperialism that they literally end up supporting a significantly more horrifying empire. I sometimes think that they deserve to have been born into Soviet Union or present Russia but I genuinely cannot bring myself to wish such horror on a human being. Their thoroughly typed and carefully cherry picked facts vs what the victims of these regimes went through have the same vibe as Tucker’s recent montage/comments about trip to Russia.
Most propaganda is grain sized, very subtle and so well masked that most people swallow without noticing it. It is structured so vaguely and discreetly that others who smell it are not able to produce hard enough evidence.
And with enough time we get the stereotypical tankie communities - gullible teenagers, bitter adults that are so blinded by search of an alternative that by endless reading they somehow achieve ignorance and betray fundamental human values, and some Russians having the time of their life having their disgusting views and evil atrocities welcomed, accepted, and spread for free.
They do not allow discussions, but the Russian propaganda that gets spread on other servers or social media cost them nothing emotionally while all of us who have to argue back need to resurface feelings that we suffer under Russia’s terrorism, after inheriting the generational trauma from parents born into Soviet Union.
I agree, they simply put all the blame on the West for the world’s problems no matter what it is and to be fair I often agree with those statements.
It’s just purely idiotic to support another country going the same thing and denying facts such as Russia invaded Ukraine.
I’m a socialist, somewhat left of a standard social democrat in the EU, but fuck, these guys are giving the whole ideology a bad name. There are still some recent movements that are good such as solarpunk, degrowth, minimalism, third spaces and tool libraries. I hope the Gen Z and Alpha get in on those so they can vote out our generation of rampant consumerism and privatisation.
Tankie ‘thought’ is very simple: US bad.
that’s it. that’s all you need to do.
There are some Americans, who upon learning that the US is not the mythological good guy it’s propaganda portrayed it as, are dealt such severe psychic damage that the only way their fractured mind is able to cope is to just assume the opposite worldview must be true.
The key takeaway is that they’re not capable of thinking for themselves. They require others to tell them what to think, and that’s either going to be US or Russian propaganda.
Oh, you forgot the “Ukraine is 90% nazis” part
That is the power of an echo chamber. My favorite post by a hex was when he tried to convince me that the Tiananmen Square massare was fake. He had a comprehensive list of over 20 links prepared, with bangers like “Actually, the massacre wasn’t happening on Tiananmen Square, but next to it. Checkmate globalists”. I’d love to link it here, but shame on @goat for deleting that post and sending them to the Tankie corner, because now I can’t find it anymore, not even in the mod log.
what post are you referring to? I haven’t been on the site for almost a year dude
So, everyone has to have the same opinion? Is that how the world should be ?. Wtf
Reading comprehension really isn’t your thing, is it? Or are you just intentionally misstating OPs position to push a different narrative?
So much hate!
So little actual discussion from you!
Would it make sense to have one? :)
I see why you talk in circles with your vague platitudes;
If you spoke in a straight line you’d actually get to the fucking point and we would all see your true motives.
If this is a honest question I will try to give some honest context, I do not represent a Hexbear, so these are just some views that I have that make me sceptical of the narrative that currently exists.
After the cold war there were calls to establish a common security structure including Russia to try to ensure peace in Europe. Instead the US (with pressure from past satellite states of Moscow, Poland, Czechia, etc) chose to maintain NATO and on top of that invite everybody except Russia, many foreign policy experts already warned that this was a recipe for war, but wether it was malice or incompetence they were ignored.
Fast forward to 2008 the US suggests inviting Ukraine (and Georgia) to NATO, and Russia makes extremely clear that this would not happen, that this was a red line for them. Now you can disagree with Russias right to say anything about the military alliances of its neighbours, but the fact that Russia is a military regional power with nukes is something you need to deal with. Again wether it was incompetence or malice is hard to say but the next 14 years are basically a chain of escalatory actions by the US combined with a series of stronger and stronger warnings from Russia that this would lead to war.
During the events themselves it is hard to judge as a civilian what exactly is happening in geopolitics, the US has a very clear trackrecord of treat inflation or simply lying about its true intentions or the truth on the ground. It could of course be that this is one of those rare cases where the US are truly the Good Guys™️ or it could be that this is a ploy to weaken a rival with the only price being the destruction of a country they don’t care about and the death of hundreds of thousands of military age males they don’t care about.
For OP: This above is the Russian talking points light, presented as a reasonable timeline. It glances over so much important stuff.
Hexbear is a group of useful idiots steered by the Russian MOD. Anything that destabilized their adversaries is good. This als means feeding a wide array of victim blaming, feeding competing narratives and generally making people question if there actually is a truth.
It glances over so much important stuff
Sure does. Like the 8-year long shelling civilians campaign that Ukraine was undertaking on Donetsk and Luhansk, solely on the basis that it wanted to deny them a vote on their own autonomy.
these are just some views that I have
Where else other than hexbear or Russian state media were you able to find such egregiously biased views?
John Mearsheimer among others, were do you get your views from?
Who are the others?
I think John Mearshimer’s analysis of the situation is extremely accurate on the whole, but what he says is very different from what you’re saying.
- He describes the origin of the conflict as a misunderstanding between Russia and the West - where the West isn’t actually trying to provoke Russia, but their actions are interpreted as hostile. Actually Mearshimer’s analysis in this respect is a lot of where I got my own view on it.
- He says that Russia’s goal at this point is to simply smash Ukraine completely, to teach the world a lesson about what will happen to anyone who tries to make them feel unsafe. You might agree with that (it sounds like maybe you do), but certainly that’s not the consensus view on Hexbear from what I’ve seen - it would make you an outlier compared to them I think.
From which respected academic did you get the idea that the West was provoking Russia on purpose by expanding to include countries Russia was attacking or threatening (which presumably then weren’t themselves the driving force wanting NATO or EU membership)?
I’m not trying to represent all of Hexbear, my views differ from the norm (just as yours seems to differ from the lemmy.world norm).
Second, I don’t want to give the impression that I’m certain on everything. It just seems very clear to me that the current narrative is dangerous and risks leading to escalation beyond Ukraine and has already caused a lot of suffering, (I think in this I echo Mearsheimers views, see the recent interview on the Spectators Americano podcast). Wether it was intentional or accidental I purposely left open in my original comment because, like I said, it’s very hard to judge at this point. But given the US trackrecord it’s probably a healthy dosis of both overconfidence in their power as well as cynical intent.
To me it’s hard to imagine that after Russia put their army on the border and explicitly said, Ukraine stays neutral or war, that the US wasn’t aware of the consequences. Clearly Ukrainian lives were not on the forefront of their decision making process at that point. So then the question is what was.
But these are my personal opinions, and I’m happy to be convinced otherwise (but calling me a Russian bot is not very convincing I find).the current narrative is dangerous and risks leading to escalation beyond Ukraine and has already caused a lot of suffering
I would say it’s all the shelling and rocket attacks and bombings, not so much the narrative.
In general I think trying to talk and understand the world is not a hostile act. If you’re trying to deliberately distort honest conversation to justify something, then that’s a bad thing, but just saying that some sincere narrative right or wrong can be a dangerous thing all on its own, I don’t agree with.
To me it’s hard to imagine that after Russia put their army on the border and explicitly said, Ukraine stays neutral or war, that the US wasn’t aware of the consequences.
Bro
What if I put a couple of my friends on the border of your house, and explicitly said, hey if you try to do X Y or Z then I might have to kill you. What’s your reaction? What’s fair in that scenario? If you ask for some allies to come over because you plan on doing X Y and Z anyway and fuck the border-standers, does it all of a sudden become the allies’ fault that any of that happened? What you’re saying is just a very weird allocation of blame to me.
Like I say, what Mearsheimer says on this issue actually makes a good deal of sense to me, but what you’re saying here is very different from what he says about it, as far as I know. I think one of the critical issues is whether the whole thing was a “ploy” by the West – he definitely doesn’t think that, that I’m aware of. Where did you get that idea? It definitely doesn’t seem to me that fighting between Russia and various former-USSR states needed any additional help in order to develop, although I’m sure the US is happy it’s happening and happy to help it go badly for Russia.
Clearly Ukrainian lives were not on the forefront of their decision making process at that point.
I think it’s relevant what the Ukrainians think. Are you saying that rejecting Russia’s orders for what they were and were not allowed to do, knowing that Russia might attack them as a result, was not their decision but someone else’s? What do you think they think about it?
Here’s a little excerpt, somewhat related, from “Sky Above Kharkiv” by Serhiy Zhadan:
"And I’d like to make another point. I was rather skeptical of the current government. I was struck by one particular thing. The elections of 2019 brought a lot of young people to power – not my peers (I’m a far cry from being young) but a bunch of political youngsters who didn’t belong to dozens of parties or hadn’t worked for all kinds of shady cabinets of ministers. ‘But why do these young people,’ I thought, ‘act like old functionaries from the Kuchma era? Where did their childish urge to make a quick buck and flaunt it come from? Why aren’t they trying to be different?’ Thing is, I personally had the chance to do what I still consider rather constructive, useful things with a lot of them – everyone from ministers to mayors and governors. Nonetheless, I’d look toward the Parliament building and ask myself, ‘Why aren’t you trying to be different?’
“Now [in wartime] with the naked eye you can see them trying to be different. Advisers, speakers, ministers, negotiators, officers, mayors, and commanders – these forty-year-old boys and girls whose generation has been dealt the cruel lot of having to stand up for their country. And this applies no less (and possibly even more) to the millions of soliders, volunteer fighters, and just regular people pitching in, people shedding the swampy legacy of the twentieth century, like mud falling off new, yet well-chosen combat boots. Young Ukrainian men and women – that’s who this war of annihilation is being waged against. And then, in contrast, are the heads of Russia, Belarus, America, and Germany. The first two are old delusional geezers from the past century who look a lot like old Russian armored vehicles, but they’re old. And they’re Russian, which, in itself, does little to recommend a vehicle. Then there are the latter two – they’re cautious office clerks, retired capitulators who aren’t brave enough to admit that they, too, are involved in what’s going on.”
What do you think started, and kept WWI going, narrative. Every party believed or was sold that they could win this thing if they just kept climbing the escalation ladder. With the result that an entire generation of boys and men was gone for basically nothing.
What if I put a couple of my friends on the border of your house, and explicitly said, hey if you try to do X Y or Z then I might have to kill you.
For a start I would not do X, Y and Z, this is the whole idea of realism, accept the world as is. Threats work, I’m sorry. If your response is to call the police, there is no police in the world of international politics, you have to play the hand you’re dealt.
And in the case of Ukraine this was sadly a very bad hand, that is why I don’t blame Ukraine for much. You could of course blame Ukraine for being lured by the power of the US, and that they could thus safely ignore dire warnings from Russia. But as they say, with great power comes great responsibility, so I choose to put the blame at the hands of Russia and the US.
What do you think started, and kept WWI going
- An entanglement of defensive allegiances
- Increased industrialization meaning that nations could field an army undergoing massive attrition for years and years without suffering a crippling lack of production at home, and
- Lack of understanding on the part of political leaders of how the face of war had changed
narrative. Every party believed or was sold that they could win this thing if they just kept climbing the escalation ladder.
I mean… not really. Surely, at the time, the “dangerous” narrative was anything against the war. To me, allowing a freer flow of ideas would have helped to resolve the war sooner, and deciding that certain narratives were dangerous and should be stayed away from (leading to difficulty in understanding what was happening) was a factor that made things worse, not better. No?
For a start I would not do X, Y and Z, this is the whole idea of realism, accept the world as is. Threats work, I’m sorry.
I am glad that you are not involved in the foreign policy of either Ukraine or any country I care about. There is realism, sure; the world is not always a comic book where being righteous is enough. Then, also, there is cowardice, and then beyond that there is saying that someone else who is rejecting cowardice is to be blamed (along with anyone who gives them assistance in standing up) for danger they find themselves in as a result.
Ukraine seems likely to be able to hold on to a significant chunk of their territory and self determination, after deciding to pay a heavy heavy price for it, in homes and cities and money and lives and anything else. You can take your condescending stuff about realism and whose decision that was, and what kind of lives under Russian rule they should be resigning themselves to instead, and shove it up your ass.
