They’d have to blame the electoral college more than anything. Clinton received 3 million more votes and still lost. Liberals are servants to rules and procedures even to their own detriment.

You mean when Russia first invaded Ukraine?

So you’re saying that Russia didn’t invade Ukraine first, before the separatist-controlled areas were shelled?

Not acting would mean that Russia becomes increasingly encircled by military bases of a hostile superpower.

It’s a semantic point, but I think it’s a stretch to call Russia the aggressor. Especially so if you remember the intensified bombings of civilian areas in eastern Ukraine, which really appeared like an attempt to provoke a Russian intervention.

New here. I was reading all the snarky strawman comments here and thinking “what the fuck are these people on?”. Then I read your comment, which is clearly and concisely written, and makes good points. I hadn’t thought of it that way and it makes a lot of sense. Not saying my view is totally flipped around, but that’s some food for thought and I’ll be snacking down.

Now will the rest of you calm down about owning libs and speak nicely to each other?

и вы являетесь сторонником российского империализма

Sorry sweetie, best I can do is partial cancelation of medical debt for Pell Grant recipients who start and operate a business in a disadvantaged neighborhood for at least two years.

Others in the thread have helpfully outlined Russia’s goals for this conflict, but it is important to note that this didn’t come out of nowhere one day (even if that is how the western press tries to present it.) This has been escalating since the coup in Ukraine in 2013, Russia has repeatedly tried to be diplomatic, and has had their concerns dismissed. Hell, Russia doesn’t even want to be antagonistic towards NATO if they don’t have to be (they even tried to join them in the early 2000s).

As others have said, we don’t support Russia, we aren’t Russian nationalists. We do however, want to try to understand a conflict and why it happens, and if there was any way to prevent it from happening so we can make sure similar conflicts don’t happen in the future.

The problem with the western media (US media in particular) is that it tends to just point to another nation and just call them bad guys, like the villain in a movie. This doesn’t analyse anything or provide any preventative power (in fact, for the US, it is usually the opposite, they want wars so they can keep their military industrial complex ticking over and making profit off of death and destruction.)

If people uncritically accept that an “enemy nation” is a bad guy, they can easily fall for the next bad guy, and the next, and so on forever. The only way to actually prevent stuff like this is to try and understand why it happens.

To be totally honest, for me personally, I’m not exactly for Ukraine as much as I’m against Russia

If nothing else, your honesty is refreshing lol

Peace looks like guaranteeing Ukrainian neutrality by taking NATO membership off the table and likely ceding the DPR and LPR to the Russian federation at this point.

At this point if Ukraine gained back the DPR it would almost certainly result in an ethnic cleansing.

Ah, silly me, I forgot, history began in Febuary 2022. War is peace, we can’t negotiate with the enemy. We just need to keep selling weapons for profit, I’m sure there’s no issue with that. Not like a country profiting off this conflict would encourage their citizens to think that Russia is a nation of mindless demonspawn who only understand violence. Just got to keep selling ineffectual and very profitable weapons and fight Russia down to every last man, woman and child in Ukraine. That’ll help the Ukrainian people! Much better than trying for that silly peace nonsense. After all, Russia did a bad guy thing. So we can’t talk, or discuss terms or try to understand them or their motivations. They the bad guys. It’s not like Ukrainian’s lives matter anyway, as the average smug American, I can’t even point to it on the map! And there’s plenty more people to die for our profits when those guys are all gone!

faschist beeing prevented from killing their hated minority. this is what peace will look like ,

sorry but the Slaughter of the Donbass will be stopped . And if every last “ukrainian victim” ,will be Married to the Donbass soil by their Cruel High Priest Zelensky , then so be it… Theres A Material way to Peace (Peace thee day after the Last Ukrainian died ) and a Interlectuall way to peace ( 3th Try ! ) … Both work , the one you Support will Kill way more then the “Kosovo” Way ,that we support… its also Inhumane and cruel…

How far do you want to go? Absolute peace would be the end of the nation-state and the use of violence to uphold class society. That’s an useless idea for this, though. Maybe a more useful goal for peace is stopping the encirclement, sanctioning, and blockading of all countries. Or not conducting coups to install puppet governments right next to geopolitical enemies. Or at the very least accepting diplomatic solutions to a war when they arise instead of slipping your proxy another check and sending a couple thousand more people to get killed.

In short, we’re a long way out from peace, but NATO’s actions have arguably put the world in more peril and violence than even Russia’s. Even if that weren’t the case, unless you’re Russian yourself, you probably have a lot more you can do to pressure the NATO countries to stop fighting to the last Ukrainian, rather than somehow pray Putin into surrendering.

How do you feel about the iraq war?

a stronger u.s. means more death squads, more right-wing coups, more death. it means no leftist movements worldwide will be allowed to gain any meaningful ground. as a citizen of the u.s. i hope every day for its collapse

we got a live one bears!

^ This is why I don’t hate on MTWists and fans of Settlers

The Americans here don’t want their country to be powerful because they are leftists (actual leftists, not Democrats) and recognize that the US has been destroying leftist movements across the globe, including in their own country, for a century or even longer. Hope this helps.

I want my country to be powerful

It’s not your country though, the state there is not subordinated to the social class you belong to. No matter how much you cheer on the bourgeoisie they will not stop being your class enemy.

I appreciate the answer, if you don’t mind me asking, are you American? If so, it just seems strange to me that you don’t want your own country to be a strong political and economic power.

I’m an American and I don’t want my county to be a strong geopolitical power. It’s only the rich who gain any benefit from that, and they are engaged in class war against us, so the stronger they get the more they can hurt us. Instead of (the upper class of) my nation getting stronger, I want my class to become stronger. The interests of the working people of all nations are aligned against the common foe of the rich and powerful, and the richest and most powerful people in the world benefit from America getting stronger - not us.

Our politicians are wasting money that could be spent on schools, infrastructure, healthcare, or any number of things, on pointless weapons and slaughter because it allows them to line their own pockets through the military industrial complex. How on earth does the average American benefit from that?

What if the world was made of pudding

ukraine had its jan 6th incident in 2014, the current war is a result of the coupists succeeding and the eastern part of the country not lying down and letting them win to preserve lives

A good comparison might be “what if Maine really wanted to be independent, or maybe even join Canada?”

Would it make sense to:

• Give American neo-Nazi paramilitaries free reign to attack Maine
• Seek an alliance with a group of nations expressly designed to fight a war with Canada
• Get into a bloody stalemate of a war with Canada if they invade on behalf of the people of Maine, who don’t want to be here anyway
• Keep fighting that war long after the point it becomes apparent that we will not be retaking Maine

A better solution would have been to negotiate with Maine separatists, perhaps addressing the reason they want to leave, and at bare minimum act like a sovereign state with a monopoly on legitimate violence and destroy the neo-Nazi paramilitaries in your own house. Might also help to avoid the “fuck Canada” military alliance, too.

Any day now the ghost of kiev will descend from the heavens and save the day

If you were a Ukrainian person Russia taking over your area would likely change things not at all. Likely it would improve your wages and working conditions. Should they be willing to get turned into soup to defend one their landlords houses? Obviously not. There in no honor in victory for them there.

Yeah. Ukraine should give up and respect the autonomy of the Russian speaking Ukrainians who don’t want to be wiped out by Galacian Nazis.

Isn’t this an instance for Republican discussions?

Yes 😎 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_faction_(Spanish_Civil_War)

So, you believe that Ukraine should just give up and allow Russia to take whatever they want?

The situation is more complex than you’ll get from the media. Separatists in Donbas, an area with cultural ties to Russia, rose up after the old government was overthrown and the new government banned political parties and shut them out of the political process, and Ukraine signed a ceasefire which it then broke by shelling civilian targets. Even if Russia withdrew, it’s not clear that the fighting would cease.

In any case, Ukraine has been refusing to consider any concessions at all, which is just unrealistic at this point. They’ll either cede territory now or they’ll cede it in 5 years with a lot more dead bodies.

Also, forgive me because I think I’m misunderstanding the theme of this instance. Isn’t this an instance for right-wing, conservative, Republican discussions, or is it something else?

Lol no we’re like actual communists here

all of your landlords are liberals too