- cross-posted to:
- usnews@lemy.lol
- cross-posted to:
- usnews@lemy.lol
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For those who didn’t read the article, the game is already released, it’s the Paper Mario Thousand Year Door remake. In the Japanese text of the original gamecube release, Vivian was a trans character. The English localisation of the Gamecube release cut out all references to her being trans.
The article is saying the Switch remake’s English translation now contains the cut dialogue that fleshes out Vivians backstory.
that’s so fugly. gotta love it when stuff gets not lost, but thrown out in translation because some snobby corporate idiotfucker is too condescending to tell you the truth. How many other times has that happened in the last three thousand years, I wonder rhetorically.
I’d like to take a moment so sit right there while we discuss most of the history of anime localization.
Some things, like honorifics, dont translate well to English.
For example, the -chan, -sama, -kun etc suffixes are super annoying when the English voice actors try to use them.
They’re fine in the English subtitles against the Japanese audio though
All of this is true, but I think what I was replying to was more concerned with censorship and rewriting things to fit a more Puritan or at least prudish outlook on the world.
bible
In the original Japanese translation, Vivian is referred to as an otokonoko (which also can mean just “boy”) and the game often uses otoko (man) and otoutou (little brother) to refer to them - so the intention was most likely to paint them more as a crossdresser.
English localisation completely removed all traces of these, just makin Vivian a girl.
And now the remake, for both languages, makes Vivian explicitly trans.Wouldn’t be the first two decades old Japanese game that had to rethink crossdressing/trans characters in their remakes.
I was assuming your link was addressing Bridget from Guilty Gear
Bridget is another one. At least they got a better ending than the real life counterpart.
I feel it’s worth noting that everyone calling you he/him or “little brother” or “man” doesn’t make you not a girl. She’s referred to in game as オトコノコ (otokonoko), which is written ambiguously like that so it can either be 男の子 meaning boy or 男の娘 literally meaning “male daughter”. When she’s referred to as ‘man’, she feels insulted, and she uses feminine first-person pronouns and calls herself one of “three sisters.”
Saying she’s “just a crossdresser” is a possible interpretation, but not one that is clear and unassailable. In translation, she’s either just a girl, explicitly trans, or somewhat ambiguous more like the original Japanese, so the people publishing the game don’t seem to think of her as just a crossdresser.
All that to say, she’s been trans for a while, even explicitly, it’s just happening in the English version of the game now.
I feel it’s worth noting that everyone calling you he/him or “little brother” or “man” doesn’t make you not a girl.
Obviously, but when the narration and descriptions use those as well, it gives it more importance than just having other characters misgender them in conversation.
男の娘 literally meaning “male daughter”
Which is the otokonoko I linked to. If the term was used today it would be much more ambiguous, but the game came out in 2004 when that term was essentially only used for" crossdressers" in Japan - what I guess we’d these days call femboys - and basically never for trans people. That meaning came almost two decades later, and some would even argue that it shouldn’t be used for them at all.
when the narration and descriptions use those as well, it gives it more importance than just having other characters misgender them in conversation.
Maybe, but it could also just be the nature of the culture at the time to talk about trans people that way. “A boy who thinks he’s a girl” is just, by our current understanding, a transphobic description of a trans girl.
the game came out in 2004 when that term was essentially only used for" crossdressers" in Japan - what I guess we’d these days call femboys - and basically never for trans people.
I’m not close enough to say with any authority that it was or wasn’t, but the use of that word, even in third person narrative descriptions of her, doesn’t really sound like “they’re definitely just a crossdresser” so much as someone euphemistically describing a trans girl. Especially when the character herself references herself as a girl. That right there is really the most important part.
By all means don’t just trust the word of a random girl on the Internet, but there ya go
Birdo?
End Birdo Trans Erasure!
I remember reading this in my own Super Mario Bros. 2 manual.
That description is transphobic as fuck
And yet, for the 80’s, progressive as fuck.
That’s the problem with progress, you cringe when you look at what things were like before.
Protip: I know you think the 80’s was just 20 years ago, it was 40 actually
Why did you have to do me like that with the 80s pro tip?
The 80s were a different time. Honestly I’m surprised Mario wasn’t originally on coke. And Luigi, and Toad…AND OBVIOUSLY royal princess peach can get the good shit.
But as it pertained to sexuality, being homophobic, being transphobic, it was the norm in the 80s.
And it was worse too, because racism absolutely existed in the 80s, just as it always has. However people in the 80s knew racism was wrong, and bad. Even in the 80s, you knew you didn’t want to be known as a racist.
But when it came to sexuality in the 80s, it was cool to call someone a fag, or laugh at a man in a dress, or anything that wasn’t “straight guy, straight girl, or two straight girls exparementing with each other at a party for others entertainment.”
So today if someone asked “Did you just call (obviously gay person) gay???”, you’d be mortified that they thought that about you.
Back in the 80s, you’d say “Hell yeah I did!!!” and then you’d high five them. Because back then, putting people down for sexuality was seen as today putting someone down for being a pedophile. If some today asked you if you were sexually attracted to young kids, you’d be repulsed and say no. But if you were British Royalty you could go to any house in your kingdom, take any child, and then tell the parents you’re taking their kid to live with you as a sex slave. Today we’re past that. We’ve gotten to the point where we all agree thats wrong. But in the 1600s, English peasants would brag to each other that THEIR kid was chosen by the king. Like it were an honor, rather than an arrestable offense it is today.
As we advance as a species, we’ll look back at centuries ago and say “what were they thinking???”
Then again, theres about 13 undiscovered, lost, still armed nuclear bombs that the Americans lost in test drops. Mostly dropped into oceans, they’ve been deteriorating away for 70ish years. Wherever they are an earthquake could set them off. Maybe an aggressive shark. The point is, there are 13 points which we KNOW at some point, will set off a WWII era atomic bomb. This will have an unknown outcome, 13 different times. Any one of which might end Earth. Or maybe it causes some tidal waves. No one knows.
Another thing nobody knows is how many atomic bombs the Russians lost.
My point is, we all might might die, because of a war that ended 34 years ago. Of which, the whole point is to NOT use nukes. (Oops)
We may NEVER get to see the moment that humans have progressed through their own toxicity.
Then again, theres about 13 undiscovered, lost, still armed nuclear bombs that the Americans lost in test drops. Mostly dropped into oceans, they’ve been deteriorating away for 70ish years. Wherever they are an earthquake could set them off. Maybe an aggressive shark. The point is, there are 13 points which we KNOW at some point, will set off a WWII era atomic bomb. This will have an unknown outcome, 13 different times. Any one of which might end Earth. Or maybe it causes some tidal waves. No one knows.
This is completely wrong. Lost nuclear bombs are not going to be functional in the slightest after decades, as they require very precisely timed detonation of explosive charges to actually trigger the main fission reaction. They’re not like chemical bombs, which will explode with enough heat or pressure. And after decades the circuitry to control the explosive charges will be long dead.
This is completely wrong. Lost nuclear bombs are not going to be functional in the slightest after decades, as they require very precisely timed detonation of explosive charges to actually trigger the main fission reaction. They’re not like chemical bombs, which will explode with enough heat or pressure. And after decades the circuitry to control the explosive charges will be long dead.
So wait, you’re telling me that Mr. Burke can’t really blow up that bomb in the middle of Megaton?
Not before the explosives expert kid from 101 showed up.
There’s gotta be a better way to get a penthouse suite than committing genocide…
Also, the fissile material has been radioactively decaying for decades and should no longer be refined enough to go critical.
I’m not sure about that, plutonium-239 has a half-life of 24k years and uranium-235’s is far longer.
That’s not what we’re talking about.
You’re probably right, and in terms of the design yield absolutely right.
But if just one explosive charge were to miss fire, you could theoretically still get a fizzle that measures in single digit or even tens of tonnes of TNT.
That’s pretty trivial as bombs go, but it would be incredibly dirty.
And it was worse too, because racism absolutely existed in the 80s, just as it always has. However people in the 80s knew racism was wrong, and bad. Even in the 80s, you knew you didn’t want to be known as a racist.
Shit, interracial marriage was not acceptable to the majority of Americans until 1994. People deluded themselves into thinking that was not racist.
I still run into people who claim that “Race Mixing” is this radical thing that the “super liberal mainstream media” is “pushing against people’s will”
Well I did until I stopped using Facebook…
I cannot believe the idea of an interracial marriage is STILL taboo.
This rant took me on a journey.
Hell I’m surprised you said the three letter f-word… That’s basically become the n-word for gay people, only without the “Members of the minority group in question are allowed to say it.” loophole
Yeah, I don’t abide by that whole “only WE can say things”. I’m not calling anyone a fag. I don’t support either word, but I AM using them in historical sense to paint a broader picture for anyone who’s younger than 30. The thing I’ve noticed about most teenagers people is that they think they’re the first ones to experience things, and the things they experience is also somehow it’s always been.
I was at the airport a few weeks ago. I was rolling my eyes because this 19 year old is bickering with his mom, about how the government is corrupt. As if he’s made a HUUUUUUGE discovery that hasn’t been public knowledge since the 70s. Then he finally says the reason he’s calling the government corrupt is because they want to ban tiktok.
Before I rolled my eyes because I thought he was making obvious points. Then I rolled my eyes again, because of all the things to call the government corrupt over…you chose tiktok.
But yeah, thats not breaking any rules, because I’m not using it as a slur.
I know, I’m just saying people are so sensitive these days, I’m surprised you were able to say it even in an historical context without people jumping on your case. Maybe I’ve been subjected to Youtube’s overzealous censorship policy for too long.
Fuck youtube’s censorship.
I watch a series on youtube called MXR Plays. 10 years ago it was a guy who played video games with VERY adult mods.
Then he got a girlfriend, about 8 years ago and the series changed dramatically. This is about the time I found the channel.
So after he gets a girlfriend, they transition from playing skyrim and other PC games with adult mods into a reaction channel. Except it’s not what you think of when you think of reaction channels. They browse reddit for various subreddits now. Each 20-30 episode is either 1 episode = 1 subreddit, OR they fast cycle through multiple subreddits in one episode.
They might go on /r/aww or /r/subtleasiandating (Jeanie is korean (with the joke being that they never specify north or south) and Henry is Chinese. Or they might go on /r/nononoyes or /r/maybemaybemaybe or /r/interestingasfuck or /r/nextfuckinglevel
They watch more subreddits, but those are the normal ones.
The reason I bring this up because…in the 2010s, he rarely if ever got strikes against his channel showing video game footage of skyrim harlots in bondage, and sex escapades.
Barely a strike.
But NOW??? in the 2020s with faulty AI?
There was a video of an adult woman, fully clothed, blowing bubbles from those solutions where you dip the stick into the plastic jar, pull it out and now the solution is all over the stick with a ring at the end. Then you blow through the ring and make bubbles. Well one video showed us a trick where if you hot glued a straw to the ring, and put some salt into the solution, you get bigger bubbles. Like…WAAAAAAAY bigger. Like 20 foot round bubbles, as long as your lungs can hold out. Uhhhhhhh…I guess smokers don’t need to apply.
Anyways, they got a strike for “sexualization of a minor”. Theres no kids in the video, and theres nothing sexual about it unless you have some kink for a bunch out college aged girls smoking from bongs (hey! I guess smokers CAN try this…), and one of them is blowing really big bubbles.
CENSORED!!!
As a gay man- at least in my local community, the loophole does exist, and I’ve heard a good number of queer people use it (though only in conversations with people they know will be comfortable with it). 🤷
I don’t necessarily take issue with it being used in a clinical tone like this. Context is context tho, and I don’t speak for everybody ofc. °_o
TBF it’s from 1988.
Still not as transphobic as Poison from Final Fight. Originally in Japan, she’s just a woman. But they made her trans in America because people might get mad if they are allowed to beat up a “real” woman.
Yeah, but us transladies had the last laugh when her being canonically trans in all regions became her big gimmick. Though weirdly enough now she’s “Post-Op in America, Non-Op in Japan”, which is… so stupid I don’t even acknowledge it.
So it was sexist and transphobic. I’ve seen enough MMA to know that gender has nothing to do with how badly I’d lose a fight in that cage.
Lol at the down votes for pointing out a straight fact.
We can put qualifiers on it, like how text like this likely did more good than harm, but it’s still undeniably transphobic
Idk why you’re being downvoted; It’s stated that they know she’s trans, then throughout, they misgender her five times and also discredit every trans person, ever, with the usage of the word “thinks”. Transphobic at the worst, ignorant at best.
Yeah it was also 1987 and the worked Was filled to the brim with right-wing propaganda. Even people who wanted to be progressive didn’t really know how to refer to anyone correctly, there was no one to teach them.
Why don’t we cut it some slack for even existing at all? Is this really worse than nothing? Literally my first exposure to the concept of trans.
Idk why you’re being downvoted
Because 1. that term is thrown around so often and so loosely-defined now it is sometimes losing its meaning, 2. nobody was intentionally trying to upset anyone, especially back then, and 3. not everyone agrees with the concept as a whole to begin with. Regardless of your beliefs I don’t even fault e.g. christians for only believing in biological male and female, as that’s what their book says and you’re not going to change everyone’s mind so easily or at all.
I don’t think you’ll get much agreement for your third point, but I completely agree with your first two. Reading something from over 30 years ago and applying modern sensibilities to it is stupid.
I’m pretty sure their book doesn’t say anything explicit about this topic. They choose to interpret passages in specific ways to foster their agenda, which is not ok at all.
BULLSHIT 2:43 AND THEN THE LORD SAID, BIOLOGICAL WOMEN SHOULD SHUT THIER MOUTHS IN THE CHURCH, BUT TRANS WOMEN CAN SPEAK, BECAUSE TRANS WOMEN ARE BIOLOGICAL MEN AND WE SHOULD HATE THEM, PASS DISCRIMINATORY LAWS AND DISSEMINATE LIES AND PROPAGANDA ABOUT THEM WHILE WAVING A FLAG AND CARRYING A BIBLE. (/s)
Yea, there is no mention of trangender people in the Bible, and honestly, its not my religion and I dont believe any of it, nor should any of it dictate my life. I am not a Christian, and I have freedom of religion.
lmao
Vivian. The game in question is a remake of TTYD. It’s not much of a reveal, since the character was trans in the original game, too.
Came in here to say that. Maybe Birdo doesn’t count since Mario II wasn’t a “real” Mario game?
Birdo is a permanent character in the main roster of characters and Mario 2 is a real Mario game. I will not tolerate all this Bowser propaganda in here.
Even notwithstanding all of the below (several enemies and other aspects of Mario 2 showed up in later Mario games, so we can only suppose its as “real” as any), Yoshi is also a strong contender for being trans. He is consistently referred to as male but cranks out eggs at an assembly-line pace and thus might be biologically female.
But then, so does Birdo. So who the hell knows how dinosaur-things work in Mario’s world.
It was a real Mario game.
Hence the quotes. It wasn’t one in Japan. It was called Doki Doki Panic in Japan and the sprites were altered to Mario characters, but only the playable characters, when it was released in the U.S. later as Super Mario Bros. 2.
And then it was re-released in Japan with those changes as Super Mario USA, and characters and concepts from it have appeared in subsequent Mario games. So even if it didn’t start as a Mario game, it’s very much a “real” Mario game, and has been since the 90s.
Mario 2 USA was released in Japan as well. Later, though, in 1992.
Yeah but it’s a totally different game and not where Birdo is from. Was Birdo even original to SMB2 or was she an original Doki Doki Panic character?
I wouldn’t say totally different, Miyamoto was more involved in Doki Doki Panic than SMB2 USA. And Doki Doki already had Mario elements in it from the beginning, like pow blocks and stars, plus the whole changeover from the vertical concept back to side-scrolling.
That’s a good question. Probably Doki Doki.
Oh I know. It actually started as a Mario game though. Then the festival was coming up so they made it Doki Doki Panic. Then Nintendo of America balked at how Mario Bros 2 was basically an intensely difficult expansion pack, and the rest is history.
Regardless of all of that tho, Mario 2 USA was always cannon for the series after it was released.
Edit. I’m not refuting you, just adding more contenxt.
Isn’t it the opposite? It was reskinned to be a Mario game because Mario 2 in Japan is what we now know as the lost levels. I don’t think this was originally anything but doki doki. Hence the completely different mechanics.
No it started in R&D as a new Mario game. They wanted to explore vertical scrolling. Similar to how Breath of the Wild was prototyped as a Zelda 1 game. They needed something for the festival so they used it for that instead of Mario.
That’s why they chose to use it for Mario 2 USA. It was at it’s core a new Mario game anyways.
Similar to how Breath of the Wild was prototyped as a Zelda 1 game.
What’s a “Zelda 1” game and how is it/BotW similar to the vertical scrolling thing?
You’re correct. I’ve never heard this anywhere else and I literally took video game history classes at a college that is partnered with Nintendo of America.
They’re both correct, but TachyonTele is more correct about the history of the game as it started development in the beginning. But it’s also true that SMB2 in USA was made by reskinning Doki Doki Panic because the real SMB2 was deemed too hard for western players.
And I’m not surprised a video game history class wouldn’t know about internal development design decisions in 1980s Japan and only knew about what was stated publicly in interviews over and over etc.
“Yume Koji: Doki Doki Panic” was created from a prototype vertical platformer game Nintendo was creating, but licensed it to Fuji Television instead.
So no, Your story is backwards - it was always a Mario game. The Yume Kojo characters ARE the reskin.
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Birdetta.
Toad.
Will they have a character that goes to jail because he wanted to play old video games?
It always had a trans character; they’re just going to stop pretending that they’re not.
I’m sure gAmErS will have a totally reasonable and normal reaction to this.
I’m sure they won’t dox developers and voice actors as usual
I know some that will…
you don’t have to go far, look at one of the comments here in the replies
It’s Zelda. They’re putting an end to the age-old mixup once and for all!
Link finna get pegged.
Link was the princess all along
I mean he was already cross dressing in BOTW
They already have Birdo in the games tho, maybe it’s a new character 🤔
Birdetta. Don’t deadname her.
Did they actually change it? I had no idea 😅
From the SMB2 manual from 1988.
I feel like the trans part really overshadowed the “spits eggs from -her- mouth” part. Is that a common thing for males or females of her species?
Common for both… but only when some Italian asshole is throwing turnips at them.
When I was a kid I could shoot milk from my eyes, so
Toad, birdo, the shy guys can’t all be guys, they must have a hundred trans characters at this point, right?
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That’s great, but, I mean, it’s Mario. How are we supposed to know?
I haven’t played Mario in a while. It seems like, given the general art style, in order to make it obvious enough to notice, they’d have to flirt with stereotyping.
I don’t know. Maybe I’m overthinking it.
The Paper Mario games are RPGs, so they’re a lot more dialogue-heavy than a normal Mario game. In this instance, the character explains their identity to the player, directly.
Ah, That makes more sense. Character creation would help a lot with this issue.
There isn’t any character creation in Mario RPGs. You roleplay as the characters presented. All of this is like 30 years old at this point. There isn’t anything new coming to light.
Bowsette confirmed!
This is how Nintendo will get banned in Florida. I hope DeSantis and Ninento sue each other and blow through tons of money on legal fees.
Okay - can we localize mother 3 now then?
This will be the second LGBTQ character Nintendo has had in their games since Gay Bowser in Super Mario Galaxy.
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Isn’t Vivian trans?
From the article.
revealed that a remake of their 2004 video game Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door is slated to revive a character’s transgender identity. The remake has the character Vivian explicitly discuss her gender identity in dialogue with Mario, stating that after she realized she was a girl and not a boy, her evil siblings started to bully her.
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Mail them all to me so I can burn them!
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Fucking idiots downvoting obvious satire
lol, no one seeing the joke here?
/s? 🤔
No, it’s serious. I’ve been smashing my Nintendos ever since they’ve gone woke. Go woke, go BROKE after all.
Having to repurchase my consoles all the time gets really expensive after a while though
