• TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    I mean its barely about what people here think.

    Broadly, Biden supporting this genocide in the way that he has is costing him the election. Acknowledging this doesn’t mean you support Trump. Arguing that if you don’t support Biden in-spite of this position is headspinning, and some posters here (@PugJesus@lemmy.world ) are doing the work of trying to separate the left from Democrats in this regard.

    The problem is that beating/ guilting/ shaming voters doesn’t work. It literally never has. Its been demonstrated, over and over again to be a counterproductive strategy.

    So what if you’ve been convinced that its OK for Biden do a little genocide? The whole god-damned point is that other people don’t believe the same thing you do, and if you actually want to stop Trump you really only have two options. You can either try to convince voters that a little genocide is acceptable if its coming from Democrats, or you can try and convince Democrats that no amount of genocide is acceptable, regardless of the ally committing it.

    Its far more sensible to bring your criticisms to the Democrats in showing that you wont vote for them if they don’t shift their positions on Gaza, than it is to engage in a demonstrable failure of an approach to rhetoric to try and shame people into voting for a only slightly less supportive of genocide candidate.

    You can move a politician. Every election cycle politicians move positions. I mean fucking hell, look how far the left was able to drag Biden last election cycle! He basically went from a Republican slate of policy positions to something actually on the left. He didn’t do this his own; he did this to get elected because that’s what the voters wanted. Biden can be moved on this, but blaming voters, especially when you know they are on the right side of the issue, is setting 2024 up for disaster.

    • goferking0@lemmy.sdf.org
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      5 months ago

      I’m just amazed at the amount they punch left then don’t understand why it’s always an issue.

    • masquenox@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      The problem is that beating/ guilting/shaming voters doesn’t work.

      You forgot to add gaslighting.

      or you can try and convince Democrats that no amount of genocide is acceptable, regardless of the ally committing it.

      The problem is that there is absolutely no way of “forcing” the (so-called) “Democratic” party on this through “formal” means - if you vote for them and they win, they will simply know that they can get you to rubber-stamp their complicity in genocide. If you vote for them and they lose or you punish them by not voting and they lose, they still won’t care - they know that four years of Trump will force you back to the ballots to vote for them in four years’ time anyway. In fact, I suspect they are betting on the latter scenario.

      You’re being pushed up against a wall - a wall that wouldn’t be there if you actually lived in a democratic society.

    • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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      5 months ago

      PugJesus has been a constant wedge between Leftists and Liberals. They only serve to be a terminally online agitator, and whenever it’s pointed out that their agitative propaganda only serves to confirm anti-leftist bias among Lemmy.world’s liberals and further ruins a broader leftist-liberal coalition, ironically making fewer people vote for Biden, they just mald and disengage.

      When I asked what they truly believe, they believe themselves to be a leftist that doesn’t agree with Marx’s Dialectical Materialism.

      They reserve only the harshest criticism for actually existing Socialist movements, such as when they trashed the Black Panther Party, but fight tooth and nail for a nuanced view of Liberalism and Liberal movements against Leftists.

      No leftist is pure enough, no liberal impure enough.

      It truly makes me wonder if PugJesus has any actual firmly held beliefs or if they just act in reflex.

    • mycodesucks@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      Nobody thinks a little genocide is okay. Nobody is saying that at all. But it’s not a choice between a little genocide and no genocide. It’s a difference between a little genocide and a LOT of genocide. When Trump gives his blessing to glassing Gaza with a nuke, will you tell the remnants of the civilians that are left that it’s fine because the Democrats will understand now that they should’ve been harder on Israel?

      What is actually more important? Doing what’s best for the Palestinians from the options that actually exist, or punishing Democrats?

      I’m not any happier than you are about the choices that we have, but wishful thinking doesn’t give us a third path. This isn’t a movie. To get a third option you’d have to convince at the very least a plurality of the population of the US to vote for another candidate that is gung-ho behind forcing Israel to stop (a proposition that isn’t guaranteed even if the US cuts off all support today, by the way). That’s a tall order, especially with how well it’s going convincing 100 or so people on a Lemmy thread.

      • Jentu@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        5 months ago

        Do people think nukes will really happen or is it hyperbole? Jared kushner wants to own beach front property in Gaza.

        • mycodesucks@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          I mean, for me it’s hyperbole, but whether it’s a literal nuke or a completely unrestrained Israeli army outfitted with unlimited US weapons, the outcome for Palestinian refugees in Gaza isn’t much different.

    • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      The problem is that beating/ guilting/ shaming voters doesn’t work. It literally never has. Its been demonstrated, over and over again to be a counterproductive strategy.

      Ah yes, the evidence of that being [checks notes] Hillary, a notoriously unpopular and uncharismatic politician, narrowly losing due to the electoral college.

      I guess people in 2020 were just REALLY fired up about Biden, huh?

      • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        They were really fired up AGAINST Trump.

        Its 4 years later.

        In terms of the policy position that is going to decide this election, they have the same policy: Genocide for the people of Palestine.

        You should stop being an apologist for genocide.

        • PugJesus@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          They were really fired up AGAINST Trump.

          That sounds almost like guilt or shame at the prospect of letting Trump win.

          In terms of the policy position that is going to decide this election

          Fucking lmao

      • Count042@lemmy.ml
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        5 months ago

        She didn’t lose narrowly because of the electoral college.

        She lost massively because even knowing the rules of the election didn’t campaign at all in the Midwest swing States while receiving increasingly alarmed warnings from the local DNC members in those States.

        Your response is like a loser going ‘I wouldn’t have lost if it wasn’t for the rules’ when everyone knew the rules in advance.

        You can argue for getting rid of the electoral college and if be right there with you. But you don’t get to pretend it’s not a thing when trying to win before you get rid of it.